Let's hear it from the Mid-Drive Kit Owners !

[dypsomaniart]

Good luck wormsman, you'll love it.

For everyone else:
****I TAKE BACK ALL MY PREVIOUS ADVICE AND RECOMMENDATIONS FOR THE AFT KITS OVER THE OTHER BRANDS****
Everyone should just buy bbs and gng and any other kit they want. Definitely get ones with greased gears and internal speed controls, its the best design possible (so compact!)! Throttle lag is awesome, it'll really improve your riding! Flimsy mounts and gears (light weight!) and overheating wont do any harm at all, its actually good for your motor (magnets get strengthened by heat!)! Belt drives run better in mud and water (it lubricates them!), sticks make them stronger! The more big gears and chains you have for reduction, the less maintenance you need to do (twice the gears, half the load!)! Steel bearings are cheaper to replace, the extra friction is good for your battery life (no bearing drag will damage your cells!)!!!
Don't waste your hard earned money, pick up a bargain today!

I like having people to overtake on the trails.

 

[district9prawn]

jules: The AFT system looks like the best solution to my next project I don't need to explain what I'm trying to achieve if you can't understand what I've written take from it what you will you seem confused. :? The GNG and BBS didnt do what I want and im looking for a kit that takes the best traits from both of these motors from what ive seen I cant wait to start my next project

You have the gng with lightningrods mods right? What in particular do you find lacking about it? I would expect the belt and 219 chain LR will be offering to be quieter and stronger than with cyclone/AFT. Even so, I ordered the AFT kit anyway and it should be arriving any day now.

 

[teslanv]

I just got told off for being rude in my posts, but seriously, (uninformed) comments like this make it very hard not to treat the commenters like the idiots that their comments clearly show them to be.
I apologise badboybike that your ridiculous comment made you look stupid, it was not my intention.

I think we would all appreciate a stop to the name-calling. There is certainly room on this forum for disagreement. That is what makes this place a great resource - so many different perspectives. Yours will be taken much more seriously if you give it in a civilized manner.
Also realize that new members join every day and the experience levels vary widely. Some including myself are actively learning new ideas and concepts in every post. I am certainly inexperienced in many ways, but I am in a constant quest for knowledge and better understanding.
I just don't understand why it it necessary to call someone an idiot to get your point across. Just provide the rest of us useful information to support your argument.

 

[dypsomaniart]

I just got told off for being rude in my posts, but seriously, (uninformed) comments like this make it very hard not to treat the commenters like the idiots that their comments clearly show them to be.
I apologise badboybike that your ridiculous comment made you look stupid, it was not my intention.

I think we would all appreciate a stop to the name-calling. There is certainly room on this forum for disagreement. That is what makes this place a great resource - so many different perspectives. Yours will be taken much more seriously if you give it in a civilized manner.
Also realize that new members join every day and the experience levels vary widely. Some including myself are actively learning new ideas and concepts in every post. I am certainly inexperienced in many ways, but I am in a constant quest for knowledge and better understanding.
I just don't understand why it it necessary to call someone an idiot to get your point across. Just provide the rest of us useful information to support your argument.

Understood teslanv, I believe in being polite to people, and if people ask a question, or state that they are unsure and would like some advice, or even if they say they have had experience to prove otherwise i will show them the utmost respect, and question my own statements/beliefs. But people who mouth off with falsehoods as if they are fact, deserve no respect in my mind. I wont state anything to anybody that i dont believe is true, and i dont tend to believe most things are true unless i've proved them true myself or seen them firsthand. My statements about my bike i believe in 100%, because ive burned through countless bearings in rc cars, and upgraded to ceramic and seen the difference. I've had the sump plug fall out of my dirtbike after a late night service and trashed my gearbox. I've rebuilt more rc gearboxs and diffs than i can count (grease only, metal gears). Ive smashed all my previous downhill times with the motor on the bike. Etc etc. I'm not making this stuff up or trying to be subversive.
So when people fire back with statements i've proven are false, i get offended and annoyed, and that comes through in my writing.
I apologise if people find it offensive. I'm giving up on this forum after this is done. It's really not worth the hassle that comes with just trying to help people avoid the mistakes I've made, and get something they will be happy with.

 

[Miles]

But people who mouth off with falsehoods as if they are fact, deserve no respect in my mind.

Perhaps you should educate yourself on the difference between a fact and a value judgement?

 

[dypsomaniart]

But people who mouth off with falsehoods as if they are fact, deserve no respect in my mind.

Perhaps you should educate yourself on the difference between a fact and a value judgement?

Fair call Miles, I'm as defensive of my beliefs as everyone else i suppose. This all started out as me just trying to recommend what i feel is one of the only kits out there without some serious design flaws, its the bare minimum as far as I am concerned. and to steer people clear of cheap kits in any form, as i've seen first hand some very poor results, over and over, not just with ebikes.

Sorry it got out of control. I apologise to all those I've offended.
Good luck with your ebikes, i'm sure there are many different types of riders that many different kits will suit.
The fact this kit was the only choice for me seems to be based on my stringent requirements and financial situation, and im sure there are many suitable kits out there to fit every need.

I'm just going to leave you all now to make your own decisions.
My opinions will be kept to myself.

 

[teslanv]

We are not asking you to keep your opinions to yourself. Quite the contrary. Your enthusiasm about the AFT kit has inspired me to learn more about them. Your passion is appreciated and your knowledge and experience is respected.

 

[dypsomaniart]

Thanks teslanv,
It's kind if you to say.
You've lifted my mood a little, good luck and all the best in your ebike adventures

 

[m4s73r]

I agree. Passion is awesome as long as you dont sound like a dick in the process. For us blunt types thats hard to do.

My opinion is that aft is overpriced. The biggest improvment to the system is adding oil to the gear reduction. Its still a headway system and a kelly controller So for the. Buy the kit you want from cyclone, take off the gear reduction, throw in some gear oil, take the mounting hardware down to your local machine shop and have new mounting hardware cut out of better and thicker material. And save yourself some money. A lot of stuff like this has been covered on the forum before. Cyclone motor and gear reduction are solid as is. The complaint has always been either the mounting supplies or the internal controlled kits.

As for the original topic. The kits are subjective to what your going to do with it and or where the kit originated.

BBS02 looks good for rail trails road, commuting, light duty. Originated in china. Easy bolt on system. All one peice. Small and quiet.

Gng kit looks like a hunk of shit. Woulnt buy one. Go look at the 130+ page gng thread. Nuff said. Originated in china.

Cyclone kit is a solid noisy kit from Taiwan. Its designed for small aisan people on small bikes getting around the hills in the country. Kit requires some love and outside fab work to make it flawless. Optionally you can buy a Aft kit that has the issues worked out of it at a PREMIUM. Does well on technical trails. Was a lady on here with some videos of her cyclone kit.

Lightning Rods Middrive. Sold. Lol. One of these will be going on a Catrike Annihilator x90 or a 700 (not sure yet) at 72v 45a.

just my 2 pennies

 

[turbo1889]

. . . of course there will be general maintenance and gradual wear. All im saying is i wont be buying a new system. If you read my post properly you will see that i said i will never have to upgrade, not that i'll never have to do any maintenance! This one should be as long lasting as a mechanical system can possibly be. . . .

Thank you for the clarification, much appreciated. Zero offense taken by an perceived rudeness a least on my end. Can't speak for others of course but you did answer my question and did so directly. Even if a little strong you still answered so I don't mind the strong-ness.

Always wondered if AFT was really worth the price increase over Cyclone and your praises of them made me start to wonder if they really had licked it all out. Quite a few automotive gear boxes are capable of 10-years service life with no maintenance beyond gear oil changes, and rough running (compared to brushless electric motors) IC automotive engines are capable of going that long on their first set of bearings. Put all that together plus a way to keep the hall circuit board from wearing out and theoretically 10-years service with no maintenance beyond the actual drive chain and freewheel could theoretically be obtained. Sounded like AFT might have done it, which if they had then the extra costs that I've never actually been able to force myself to bite the bullet and pay started sounding like a true bargain. Guess I got a little over excited and misinterpreted what you were trying to say (the "read my post properly" part you said I was not doing).

 

[dypsomaniart]

Turbo1889,
My reply was rude. I am sorry for that. Im not used to having my every statement questioned or discredited, and i responded poorly. I did a lot of research and had a lot of bad experiences before deciding the aft was the best option for me, but people reading my comments were not to know that. I don't recommend things lightly, and i have no affiliation with aft, i was just trying to help. But then i got pissy when people didnt seem to want to listen. It wont happen again.

M4s73r,
Well said. My only addendum would be to add that for new people interested in the cyclone kit, getting a better mounting plate made up, an isis BB, better freewheels, sealing the motor against oil getting in from the gearbox, getting chain guards and tensioners and gearbox shrouds and heatsinks made, fitting ceramic bearings, programming the controller, etc, may be a little daunting. Even if doing it yourself works out cheaper. The AFT kit price may seem high, but this is all done for you.
Or you could go with the lightningrods kit, as suggested, The choice is yours.

 

[panurge]

Jules, clearly your high mounted astro motor (on a hardtail frame from what i have seen of your posts) has warped your understanding of what a light motor is like, mounted at crank level.
My glory handles better now with the motor than it did before. Because of the low cg, its just as easy to throw around and manouver through tight stuff. If anything, the extra 4.5kg on the bottom helps it flow through rocky sections and tree roots without getting deflected and bouncing off line. It doesnt adversely effect handling at all.
The AFT kit is tough enough to take any downhill track, and i'd be very surprised if it couldnt do any of them faster than gravity alone with a normal DH bike.
I can tell you from my personal experience that i can go faster downhill, faster on flat, and faster uphill, than any bike ive had before, and according to strava, than any other bike, period. Before i started making my strava rides private, i had KOM'd every track.

Go buy one and give it a try, then you'll understand.
A low cg setup (compared to the astro) having exponentially less pendulum effect on the bike is just simple physics.
Anyone who still doesnt understand the advantages of the AFT kit, try googling what happens when you run out of gearbox oil in a motorcycle or car. Dry gears are a fatal design flaw. See if you can find any motor vehicle that doesnt run gearbox oil.
A seperate, programmable controller and motor heatsink means cool running and max efficiency, and no long term heat damage to motor sensors and magnets. And no dumb throttle lag.
Ceramic bearings last far longer than chrome steel and are more efficient.
A fully rigid alloy mounting plate means a solid bashplate, and no torque flex to wear chains and gears.
The best cranks and freewheels available at the moment.

I'm tired of trying to convince you. Just go do some real research (not just take what you like from what people think on forums).
Look at some videos of EGO kits, and AFT kits offroad.
Your comment was highly inaccurate.

Hey Dypso....who's inaccurate? mhhh, you seems a bit confused....all of us (more or less) we are talking about low mounted drives....that's my (hardtail ) bike

also look here if you want http://www.pinkbike.com/news/opinion-friends-dont-let-friends-ride-e-bikes-2014.html.....maybe you Agree with Mike that all our Ebikes (not your AFT obvious ) are useful only for a little old lady...seems you are a very well documented while talking....hi-mounted hardtail.....tsk.....and you never say misleading statements...

'm looking at building a second AFT mid drive for my Dad, who is now on his fourth hub drive, second controller, and second throttle and power controller (and he's only done about 200km).
Buy a cheap setup at your own risk.

Buy a bottle of what you prefer without risk and learn to be more educated....don't know about the few members posting in this thread, but the majority of the people who's reading and will read this thread should get a clear Idea about your accuracy/education and, that's the paradox, maybe AFT has not sorted out with that cool promotion.....

Ah....wonder where is the OP johnnyfos at the moment....he never posted again on the thread, if I'm not wrong....would be curious to know what this new member thinks about the replies.....

 

[wormsman]

"Time is money" with all the time you spend upgrading a cheaper system to be what it should be ,well desigined an engineered you would have already spent the difference your saving in your own time .How much $$ are you really worth an hour? Its false economy. A well engineered desigined kit is the way to go not something you have to spend 80+ hours on upgrading fixing its short falls fixing its failed parts. just my take on it.

A LR full moded kit for me would have been better economy to the stock GNG for this same reasons good engineering to replace rubbish parts poorly designed I hate to think what ive spent in time and money on that GNG.

It comes down to what terrain you ride as to the kit you will require and what will work best for you

 

[m4s73r]

i just can add..hope aft pay you well, since every post you write is about promoting a thing that so few person have...

Theres a reason so few people have it. Course if your in the US and want to spend that kind of money theres always Ecospeed....

 

[Gab]

theres always Ecospeed....

Yeah the AFT kit is actually cheaper then the other high quality kits like the ECOSPEED and EGO kits and seems to be better featured then both of those.

AS others have mentioned time is money, but also efficiency is money. This kit also probably has the most efficient planetary strait cut gear reduction compared to many other kit, The GNG beltdrive is quiet but no where near as efficient. ALso Dypsomaniart you chose the extra EMAX high efficiency ceramic bearing and moly oil upgrades ? I have been reading this makes the kit 20% more efficient and if this is true their will be a saving in batteries in the long term, batteries are expensive so getting 20% more life out of them is also a significant saving and it also means you can carry less weight per ride. Helical gears are quieter but also not as efficient as strait cut.

 

[m4s73r]

Your right it is cheaper. 1632usd for the aft kit. 1000 for LR kit (after controller and throttle). and ecospeed is 3 grand as is the Ego kit (however it should be noted that the ego come with a battery at that price).

 

[dypsomaniart]

Jules, clearly your high mounted astro motor (on a hardtail frame from what i have seen of your posts) has warped your understanding of what a light motor is like, mounted at crank level.
My glory handles better now with the motor than it did before. Because of the low cg, its just as easy to throw around and manouver through tight stuff. If anything, the extra 4.5kg on the bottom helps it flow through rocky sections and tree roots without getting deflected and bouncing off line. It doesnt adversely effect handling at all.
The AFT kit is tough enough to take any downhill track, and i'd be very surprised if it couldnt do any of them faster than gravity alone with a normal DH bike.
I can tell you from my personal experience that i can go faster downhill, faster on flat, and faster uphill, than any bike ive had before, and according to strava, than any other bike, period. Before i started making my strava rides private, i had KOM'd every track.

Go buy one and give it a try, then you'll understand.
A low cg setup (compared to the astro) having exponentially less pendulum effect on the bike is just simple physics.
Anyone who still doesnt understand the advantages of the AFT kit, try googling what happens when you run out of gearbox oil in a motorcycle or car. Dry gears are a fatal design flaw. See if you can find any motor vehicle that doesnt run gearbox oil.
A seperate, programmable controller and motor heatsink means cool running and max efficiency, and no long term heat damage to motor sensors and magnets. And no dumb throttle lag.
Ceramic bearings last far longer than chrome steel and are more efficient.
A fully rigid alloy mounting plate means a solid bashplate, and no torque flex to wear chains and gears.
The best cranks and freewheels available at the moment.

I'm tired of trying to convince you. Just go do some real research (not just take what you like from what people think on forums).
Look at some videos of EGO kits, and AFT kits offroad.
Your comment was highly inaccurate.

Hey Dypso....who's inaccurate? mhhh, you seems a bit confused....all of us (more or less) we are talking about low mounted drives....that's my (hardtail ) bike

also look here if you want http://www.pinkbike.com/news/opinion-friends-dont-let-friends-ride-e-bikes-2014.html.....maybe you Agree with Mike that all our Ebikes (not your AFT obvious ) are useful only for a little old lady...seems you are a very well documented while talking....hi-mounted hardtail.....tsk.....and you never say misleading statements...

'm looking at building a second AFT mid drive for my Dad, who is now on his fourth hub drive, second controller, and second throttle and power controller (and he's only done about 200km).
Buy a cheap setup at your own risk.

Buy a bottle of what you prefer without risk and learn to be more educated....don't know about the few members posting in this thread, but the majority of the people who's reading and will read this thread should get a clear Idea about your accuracy/education and, that's the paradox, maybe AFT has not sorted out with that cool promotion.....

Ah....wonder where is the OP johnnyfos at the moment....he never posted again on the thread, if I'm not wrong....would be curious to know what this new member thinks about the replies.....

Sorry panurge, if i got you wrong. I looked at your most active post to see pics of your astro kit, and this was all i found.

The new frame looks great though, nice work.
I still stand by my comments regarding the astro weight distribution compared to the AFT. Anyone can clearly see from both the new photo and your original build, that the motor up high like that would have a far greater effect on the ride than down low.
And my comments about the hub drive failing multiple times were not intended to be misleading, they were a 100% accurate description of my first hand experience with cheap hub drives. Sorry if you took that to mean every hub drive is rubbish, i stated clearly that buying cheap was at the users peril.
People reading this can make up their own minds.

 

[dypsomaniart]

Badboybike,
The points i was trying to get across, are that with the power of the aft, it feels light as a feather accelerating, so the weight is not noticed at all under power. Its carried so low that it doesnt effect the way the bike can be quickly flicked around. Going downhill, it accelerates like a rocket, and the throttle allows you to blast effortlessly through any sections where you would normally be pedalling and therefore notice the extra weight.
If it had the same output as your system, then yes, you would notice the extra weight. The bike is heavier overall. But it carries it low and remains perfectly balanced, so in all the situations where that would matter, it is overridden by the power. It rides just like a slightly heavier glory, and pedals like it weighs nothing, because of the motor.
Its faster on every trail than both my unassisted DH times, and all my old XC times on a carbon 29er. Uphill, downhill, tight tracks or not.
In comparison, your system is just dead weight on a downhill/freeride session, and appears to only give moderate pedal assistance on hills. forgive me if im wrong, but in the video the rider has to stand up and pedal to clear the last hill, that suggests moderate effort. I read through your forum and could only find reference to pedal assist, and that was all that was shown in the video you posted. If you have more options maybe you should list them on your advertising.

I'm sorry if you think I'm a bad person for pointing all this out, but for me i still have to say I think the AFT is a better choice.
And no I am not affiliated in any way with AFT. Just trying to help people make a good choice.

 

[delphinus]

I for one am very happy with my AFT kit. Great service, great product. I needed something to climb very steep hills with ease and it does just that, as well as being very efficient on the flat.

 

[ebike11]

I think the GNG has the potential to handle the most power/stay cooler and go the fastest on street flats out of the bunch with higher voltage, if the same power/amps were applied to all of these motors in this thread, yes??

 

[dypsomaniart]

I think the GNG has the potential to handle the most power/stay cooler and go the fastest on street flats out of the bunch with higher voltage, if the same power/amps were applied to all of these motors in this thread, yes??

Its the biggest motor, it should be able to produce the most torque and therefore pull higher speeds, for sure.

 

[teslanv]

The ONLY good part of the GNG kit is the motor, which is why LightningRod's kit improves upon every other part, except the motor. What would be great to see is a side by side comparison of the AFT and LR's kit at similar power-levels. I have a feeling those will be the two Mid-Drive kits competing for top honors in their price ranges.

 

[turbo1889]

. . . cyclone kit, . . . sealing the motor against oil getting in from the gearbox . . .

That's the part of the AFT upgrades to the cyclone that I personally have had the hardest time doing myself and where I would generally agree that it is probably money well spent to have them do that for you. Oil fill gear box is so much nicer then the grease fill that the stock cyclone comes with I fully agree but easier said then done as a DIY conversion in my experience.


---------------------------------------------


What I think would be a beautiful mid-drive kit would be to take the GNG motor (potentially the most powerful of the common kits under discussion in this thread, and also a very nice size and profile for e-bike mid-drives) and built a planetary gear box right into its face as an integral part of the motor just like the cyclone gear head motor kits only a bigger diameter gear box with larger gears to handle the extra power (but not much thicker) that was a well sealed nice oil filled gear box straight from the get-go with good bearings. Combine that with a good set of bottom bracket mounting plates and guards, and a white Industries freewheel output and that could be a really sweet drive set-up. Not that what LR is doing with the GNG base motor isn't good as well by any means but gear head motors with the reduction built right into the motor head do have their advantages as well.

Someone on here did a build sort of along those lines with a planetary gear reduction box but it wasn't as nice of a gear box as the AFT premium upgrade style, oil filled, well sealed, high end bearings gear box.

 

[dypsomaniart]

Good call turbo1889,
That would be a ripper system! The motor wouldnt be stressed too hard, efficiency would be maximum, and it should be as long wearing as can be.
If they could adapt a slipper clutch or viscous drive, to protect the driveline from sharp jolts it would damn near indistructable (talking about chains and cassettes there).
I'll be interested to see what comes out in the next few years! The current crop of drives is still quite primitive in terms of development, compared to solutions that the automotive/motorcycle/rc car industry has used for many years.

 

[jk1]

by ebike11 » Sun May 25, 2014 5:35 am

I think the GNG has the potential to handle the most power/stay cooler and go the fastest on street flats out of the bunch with higher voltage, if the same power/amps were applied to all of these motors in this thread, yes??

The main limit is not the motors at those power levels its more the bike drive system. If you look on the GNG thread most people have problems with chains and deraileurs above 2kw and at 3kw with the Smallblock GNG, then people have converted them to single speed direct to the rear wheel which defeats the whole purpose of mid drive gears. Big block would be even worse. 7/16 deraleur compatible chains were only designed to handle human power and it seems for 1-2kw they also work ok. But above that you will probably get rapid chain wear out and deraileurs snaping off.

So their is no use haveing a bigger heavier motor if you cannot use that power.

So basicaly tuneing the bike to the smallest and lightest motor that will handle you power neads is the best option. Imagine running a middrive cro-motor at only 2kw.... You would be carrying around a lot of dead weight for a motor that can do 12kw....

It would be interesting to compare the efficiency like for like at the same motor power as you say as belt drive has benefits but efficency is not one of them compared to chains or gears.