Light, high torque, powerful mid drive motor choices

[ScooterMan101]

How many watt's and amp's have you been running that motor at , continuously ?

Do you have links to these motors ?

Weight ?

Thanks

I have been running the 500w version direct drive to the rear freehub for over a year with 5000 watt peaks and no issues using kart 219 sprockets with a Lyen 12 Fet.
So far I have 2 of the 1000watt motors which I have upgraded the bearings to SKF turned the motor shaft down to accept a 219 sprocket with a key way machined in and upgraded the phase wires to 10awg plus fitted a temp sensor but I am probably 2-3 weeks away from mounting this to a bike.

I also have 2 more on the way from China.

 

[macribs]

Some interesting looking outrunners.

20 KW. 24cm dia. choice of KV
http://mymobilemms.com/OFFTHEGRIDWATER.CA/Brushless-Motor/20kw-238-50-Lightweight-Large-Brushless-Motor

40kw 20cm dia, 80mm wide 6.4Kg
http://mymobilemms.com/OFFTHEGRIDWATER.CA/Brushless-Motor/40KW-BLDC-Brushless-Motor-100hp
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/202-80-powerful-bldc-motors-with_60727607300.html?spm=a2700.galleryofferlist.0.0.880d6245rS3MXL

15kw 21cm dia 80 wide 5.2Kg
http://www.rotexelectric.eu/products/bldc-motors/rex-series/

15kw 20cm dia 57mm wide 5.2KG
http://www.nt-power.eu/motor_m.html

15Kw 16cm
https://frchobby.en.alibaba.com/product/60802391219-811433165/MP_15470_30kw_60kg_thrust_Sensorless_Motor_for_Drone.html?spm=a2700.icbuShop.41413.35.2df04df72DV8qj

Great finds.

 

[sn0wchyld]

Some interesting looking outrunners.

20 KW. 24cm dia. choice of KV
http://mymobilemms.com/OFFTHEGRIDWATER.CA/Brushless-Motor/20kw-238-50-Lightweight-Large-Brushless-Motor

40kw 20cm dia, 80mm wide 6.4Kg
http://mymobilemms.com/OFFTHEGRIDWATER.CA/Brushless-Motor/40KW-BLDC-Brushless-Motor-100hp
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/202-80-powerful-bldc-motors-with_60727607300.html?spm=a2700.galleryofferlist.0.0.880d6245rS3MXL

15kw 21cm dia 80 wide 5.2Kg
http://www.rotexelectric.eu/products/bldc-motors/rex-series/

15kw 20cm dia 57mm wide 5.2KG
http://www.nt-power.eu/motor_m.html

15Kw 16cm
https://frchobby.en.alibaba.com/product/60802391219-811433165/MP_15470_30kw_60kg_thrust_Sensorless_Motor_for_Drone.html?spm=a2700.icbuShop.41413.35.2df04df72DV8qj

Great finds.

now just to find a controller that can run them in a ebike application without blowing up and we're golden!!

Not to say they cant... BAC, kelly (maybe), Nuke (probably struggle a bit) are some options but these motors are renowned for being hard to drive, low inductance and low phase R = tough on controllers.

 

[speedmd]

Yes, low R tends to crowbar many controllers. They run well (going by reports) sensorless driving props with a bunch of rc controllers. Some have gone that route on astro builds. One option is to add a centrifugal clutch so the slow speeds will allow them to build some motor rpm-resistance to ease the current dump.

 

[amberwolf]

it doesnt' really go well with the idea of a light motor, but you could perhaps use something like the lebowski brain running a beheaded ev powerstage. the brain board is small, but the ev powerstages are not--the smallest i found was the honda ima inverter; havent' actually held one in my hands yet (due next week) but they appear to be at least the size of a good pair of stacked trade paperback books. it's the bit this guy is removing starting at the time link below:
https://youtu.be/9Ur_VNd2Lh4?t=2283

or skip ahead to 37:36 here:
[youtube]9Ur_VNd2Lh4[/youtube]

 

[speedmd]

Nice looking power stage. Looks like the heat sink is super thick and could go on a diet possibly without much issue for a lightweight bike.

 

[amberwolf]

Quite possibly. I will find out as much as I can about them in this thread:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=105711
where I will be using a pair of them on SB Cruiser, run by the Lebowski SMD brainboard. The thread will be as complete a how-to as I can make, so that anyone with a bit of DIY inclination can do this. So if you want to try it out...just follow the smell.... ...er...directions, once they're created.

 

[sn0wchyld]

not exactly maxing out the power levels on these motors youve posted but another possible controller able to handle them:

https://trampaboards.com/single-vesc-75v-300a-in-cnc-t6-silicone-sealed-aluminum-box--the-most-powerful-vedder-electronic-speed-controller-ever-p-26284.html

150kerpm, 450A peak (presuming phase amps) should be fun enough. VESC brain

 

[speedmd]

Look forward to seeing the details on the honda power stage.

The compact ESC looks like a good fit for a sub 100 pound build. The large dia. 20kw motor would easily rocket such a build with that current level. Nice thing is it has the torque to run a single stage to the wheel, which has benefits.

 

[macribs]

I saw vasili said in the Nuc thread that low inductance motors should not run at maximum 80 volt because of high current ripple. Maybe the Nuc controller will work with these motors if run at lower voltage?

I was saying before that RC motors not recommended due to low inductance, they will not let you to use 80V@max phase due to high current ripple, you may expect only 80% form maximum. About data - there was few users, i dont have any comparable performance information

That honda video wouldn't play, and when I tried later and I wen to the recommended 46 min xx that was actually the very end of the video. So I didn't get any useful info about the honda integrated motor assist. Could anyone give me the short version, or the cliff notes if you like? And what size is the honda IMA? I got severe real estate issues and fitting yet another box likely will have to take away from battery size. Frustrating.

 

[speedmd]

The 20kw motor looks to have possibility to run a crank BB though the motors center and or share a swing arm pivot.

 

[amberwolf]

That honda video wouldn't play, and when I tried later and I wen to the recommended 46 min xx that was actually the very end of the video.

Oops. I misread the time; it's actually 37:36 where that portion of his disassembly starts, if you want to see how the inverter is removed from the IMA module, and some minor information about it.

So I didn't get any useful info about the honda integrated motor assist. Could anyone give me the short version, or the cliff notes if you like? And what size is the honda IMA? I got severe real estate issues and fitting yet another box likely will have to take away from battery size. Frustrating.

Then the IMA is not a route you would want to take. It's not small (well, maybe for the power level; I don't have experience with other 15kw-capable controllers). Basic measurements are 10.64lbs (most of which is probably heatsink), and about 9" x 8" x 4" or so. That doesnt' include the (small) 12v dc-dc you'll need to power the gate driver PSU inside it (taht would usually run off the 12v lighting/etc part of the Civic), and doesn't include space for a brain board to operate the inverter in place of it's canbus-controlled cpu (assuming the brainboard won't fit inside the inverter casing; it might, wont' know till I get all the parts here).


For more details than you would ever want (eventually, as I gather them), this thread
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=105711
is my in-progress how-to on Lebowski-izing the Honda IMA inverter.

The inverters just arrived tonight, and I don't have the brain boards yet, so it's just pics and measurements and thoughts and whatnot so far.

 

[macribs]

Yeah I need to keep things tightly packed so a big ass IMA is not the route for me. These motors posted in the last weeks might be great candidates. I love the form factor, the power output etc. But I don't like that they seems to be picky on the controllers. All those high output power VESC's that have come around the past few years might be great. I have never played around with them. But my understanding is that as of today it seems they are commonly used in everything from rc toys, to electric skateboard etc. Don't know how well they would work of e-bikes or e-motorcycles. Meaning, will those tiny little VESC's be able to handle huge amp draws of several minutes or even longer? If I am gonna go for a 15-20 kw motor or even 30 kw motor I need a controller that can handle that kind of power without melt down.

Anyone tested that 300 A Vesc? Are there other versions, like 500 A versions? From the very back of my mind I seem to remember a thread talking about a 5-600 amp vesc in development a few years back. I couldn't find back to that thread.

Edit: thinking really hard about it, I even seem to recall some images of the housing of the high ampere vesc. It was a big housing in aluminium, unpainted. Bare metal. Large for a vesc, but not compared to other controllers for e-bikes/motorcycles. Larger then other vesc's. But I can't remember the specs or who actually was developing it. 500 or 600 amps maybe? Was this it all in my head or does any know what thread or vesc I am thinking of?

 

[toolman2]

Some interesting looking outrunners.

20 KW. 24cm dia. choice of KV
http://mymobilemms.com/OFFTHEGRIDWATER.CA/Brushless-Motor/20kw-238-50-Lightweight-Large-Brushless-Motor

40kw 20cm dia, 80mm wide 6.4Kg
http://mymobilemms.com/OFFTHEGRIDWATER.CA/Brushless-Motor/40KW-BLDC-Brushless-Motor-100hp
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/202-80-powerful-bldc-motors-with_60727607300.html?spm=a2700.galleryofferlist.0.0.880d6245rS3MXL

15kw 21cm dia 80 wide 5.2Kg
http://www.rotexelectric.eu/products/bldc-motors/rex-series/

15kw 20cm dia 57mm wide 5.2KG
http://www.nt-power.eu/motor_m.html

15Kw 16cm
https://frchobby.en.alibaba.com/product/60802391219-811433165/MP_15470_30kw_60kg_thrust_Sensorless_Motor_for_Drone.html?spm=a2700.icbuShop.41413.35.2df04df72DV8qj

Agreed speedmd, they are nice finds..

The first one 20kw 238mm dia is of interest, with the Joby motors now impossible to get and these roughly looking like half the rpm and double the torque and about $1000 on alibaba i reckon you could have a machine just as competitive as the Joby bike using one.

The numbers add up pretty well for the 48kv version, The Joby motor i got is 102kv and its resistance is about the same at 10m ohms, there are some solid reasons that these fellas would be a good few % less efficient but you would more than make up for it by having just a single stage reduction instead of two. i use between about 8 and 10 to 1 gearing and with this motor prolly 4 or 5 to one.

Easier to drive at a guess and plenty of controllers can manage it, i reckon VasiliSK's nuclear 24f could do it -at the very least the 35kv version at 80V. Luke wasn't wrong about growing the motors diameter and less gearing stages being a good thing. :wink:

 

[speedmd]

Hi toolman2.

I was hoping you were still among the ES fraternity. Keep looking for more of your reports - videos.

The 20KW reminds me of the Joby a bit. I was thinking something closer to your joby's KV with 5-6 to 1, single stage reduction would be something one could use to get some super top speeds with relatively low voltage and still have torque to have good get up and go. Your input is priceless on this. Many thanks.

 

[amberwolf]

All those high output power VESC's that have come around the past few years might be great. I have never played around with them. But my understanding is that as of today it seems they are commonly used in everything from rc toys, to electric skateboard etc. Don't know how well they would work of e-bikes or e-motorcycles. Meaning, will those tiny little VESC's be able to handle huge amp draws of several minutes or even longer?

Have you looked at the various VESC high power version threads here on ES? There's multiple variants that might do what you're after, but I don't know the details, so you will have to look at those threads.

 

[macribs]

@toolman2 nice seeing you around still.

How is the Joby bike holding up? That was an impressing build you did. What kind of controller did you use?
Any more joby-bike videos uploaded? Btw what happen'd to the company that made joby motors, or the motors? If anyone is struggling securing those I think some RC sites might still have em stock. I think last fall or early winter I saw joby for sale. I wasn't shopping for joby so I didn't take the time to look into it, but at least it looked like a joby.

@amberwolf. I did I search on the forum, as well as via google and found lots of vesc threads but I haven't had time to browse em all yet. I will try to find the time next weekend. Spring has finally hit us hard with nice weather so must carve out as much riding time as possible between work so lack of time to do much research now during the week. But things slow down on friday afternoon. So I will dive into during the weekend unless I go trail riding with friends. It's a 5 hours drive up there so if we bugger off it will be a weekend thing.

Winter been so long and cold, and then this virus thing hit. I am so ready to get tons of biking done finally.

 

[speedmd]

Nice size! 118x51mm 1400 grams and 12KW on 14s.

rushless-Motor-For-Drone-Agricultural-Drones-Thrust-50KG.jpg_q50.jpg

And larger brother looks strong for its size. 152x84mm, 3Kg 198A max. https://www.aliexpress.com/i/4000867388740.html
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Brushless-Multirotor-Motor-For-Agricultural-Drones-47-Propeller-80KG-50KV-P400/283821086188?hash=item42150e15ec:g:7dEAAOSwLu5edEaL