'lightest.bike' 1.7kg 1000w mid drive

[uhmwpolyethylene]

Lightest ebike kit: YOUR BIKE WITH SUPERPOWERS

Lightest is the most compact, light and affordable mid drive ebike system. | Check out 'Lightest ebike kit: YOUR BIKE WITH SUPERPOWERS' on Indiegogo.

www.indiegogo.com

relevant screenshots re: "90nm for 30 output with solved torque reduction mid drive flaw" below

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Even the new Bosch performance SX, which is only available to big companies perhaps? Is 2kg, 55nm, 600w. Only disadvantage to the Bikee seems to be potential rain issues compared to an ip67 specialized, etc al. the low quality bearings and weird seals give me pause. However, if Specialized is moving to 1.2 engine, they may stop making 1.1 batteries, and so on. With your kits like bafang etc this becomes less of an issue. The BBSHD is IP65 rated for splashes perhaps not a deluge.

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Btw, here was another promising invention that went nowhere, electromagnetic field engine , 100kmh/62mph on only 500 watts, 4.4 lb motor, weight of rim magnets not stated. Who knows the torque. With this type of design the motor could probably be reduced in size as well and battery size reduced. Lightweight Velocité”Maglev” Hidden Motor Electric Bike | Electric Bike Report | Electric Bike, Ebikes, Electric Bicycles, E Bike, Reviews

https://bikerumor.com/eb14-lightwei...roject-ebike-solution-with-research-partners/

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This reminiscent "high drive" for the chimera eBMX put out 3800-5000w at 8lb and can enable upside down jumps as seen on the Instagram which seems to be glitching, but eats up an 8lb battery in 8 or so miles so its often run in 1000w mode. The bikee seems like a better fit for a minivelo or mtb. OUR MOTOR

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Chalo said:
The best thing about Enviolo, and NuVinci before them, at least from an e-bike standpoint, is that they're always fully "in gear" and engaged, ready to take full torque. There's no way to smack them with motor force mid-shift or when the shifting adjustment is in between full engagement intervals.

The enviolo is supposed to be able to handle up to 100nm torque as well for the heavy duty ones, but, it's so damn heavy. I tried one recently however and it was a real pleasure to dial in your exact needed gear.

 

[Nomadstealth]

Every time i've looked at a CYC product over the last 5 years they all had some combination of:
- Unpedalable cadence
- Extreme offset in one pedal
- Extreme added width on both pedals ( >10mm )

IE not interested in biomechanics or exercise in this design; willing to compromise that whenever needed in favor of power.

Let me know if this ever changes, but this is my understanding of CYC mid drives

I really like the CYC X1 Stealth , it’s the best mid drive I’ve ever had . It's also the noisiest , anyway :-

Unpedalable cadence - I really haven’t had that happen , it could be a settings thing . I’ve got mine set to Single Hall Torque (LDS) so both the cadence sensor and torque sensor are activated .

Extreme offset in one pedal - Mine are both equal . It's the only mid drive I've had that has equal offset .

Extreme added width on both pedals ( >10mm ) - I don't think it's too bad :-

• Shimano Deore XT Hollowtech FC-M8100-1 Q Factor Length: 172 mm
• Yamaha PW-X Q Factor Length: 168 mm
• Shimano E8000 Q Factor Length: 175 mm
• Brose Drive T, TF, S Q Factor Length: 179 mm
• Bosch Performance Line Q Factor Length: 180 mm
• CYC X1 Stealth Q Factor Length: 188.5 mm
• Tongsheng TSDZ2 Q Factor Length: 210 mm

 

[neptronix]

I really like the CYC X1 Stealth , it’s the best mid drive I’ve ever had . It's also the noisiest , anyway :-

Unpedalable cadence - I really haven’t had that happen , it could be a settings thing . I’ve got mine set to Single Hall Torque (LDS) so both the cadence sensor and torque sensor are activated .

Good to hear that they've improved on the cadence in recent models.

Extreme offset in one pedal - Mine are both equal . It's the only mid drive I've had that has equal offset .

Ah, so they added extra width to the left pedal in recent models. I stand corrected!

Extreme added width on both pedals ( >10mm ) - I don't think it's too bad :-

• Shimano Deore XT Hollowtech FC-M8100-1 Q Factor Length: 172 mm
• Yamaha PW-X Q Factor Length: 168 mm
• Shimano E8000 Q Factor Length: 175 mm
• Brose Drive T, TF, S Q Factor Length: 179 mm
• Bosch Performance Line Q Factor Length: 180 mm
• CYC X1 Stealth Q Factor Length: 188.5 mm
• Tongsheng TSDZ2 Q Factor Length: 210 mm

Yeah, that's the problem. This is very wide. Notice that it is the second widest in the list.

Put the Stealth on a bike with a 68mm bottom bracket ( ~150mm q-factor stock ) and you end up with an extra 33.5mm of width.. this puts the pedaling characteristics in-line with a fatbike... IE poor.

A majority of research papers say that optimum biomechanical efficiency for a human pedaling a bicycle happens at a 90-110mm Q factor because this is in line with how we walk - feet are usually 3-5 inches apart... not 8 inches.

The wider we go, the more one compartment of the tibia is loaded and the other is offloaded because our tibia and femur interface wants to rub at an angle instead of straight. This can, over time, wear that side of the knee more than the other and also strengthen leg muscles on one side vs the other - your legs are now optimized for cowboy walking, not regular walking.

The patella ( kneecap ) will hurt first because it is the primary stabilizer of the knee.

In addition this inefficiency reduces your pedaling power since you cannot utilize both sides of your leg muscles.



It was one month of using a BBS02, after 20 years of bike riding without any pain previously, my leg muscles disbalanced to the point that i gradually developed crippling knee pain, which landed me in physical therapy to retrain my leg muscles to work correctly.

It was found that my left and right kneecaps weren't tracking correctly and also moving in slightly different directions due to this uneven cowboy stance.

If you actually pedal your bike then factors like these in a mid drive design are very important.

That's why i have to personally write off most mid drives including the entire line of CYC products :/

 

[neptronix]

That "we" doesn't include me. Biomechanics is very personal. I am built very, very broad. Super-wide shoulders and wide all the way down, including x-wide feet. I've measured my stance and stride, and fat bike q-factor is just right for my skeleton. That's why the BBSHD has never bothered me. I am very comfortable with ultra-wide pedal stance. 200mm + q-factor is no problem at all for me. But I wouldn't call it lucky necessarily... since being this wide is not aero, not that it matters anymore in the age of ebikes.

I agree and i am your physical opposite, i also have a biomechanical disadvantage to begin with so whatever negative effects come from an inadequate machine to body fit, are extremely exaggerated in me. But research tells us that it's not great for people without my additional problems.

But as far as bicyclists physiques go you must admit most cyclists trend towards 'elf race' rather than 'orc race' so YYMV

 

[richj8990]

Good to hear that they've improved on the cadence in recent models.


Ah, so they added extra width to the left pedal in recent models. I stand corrected!


Yeah, that's the problem. This is very wide. Notice that it is the second widest in the list.

Put the Stealth on a bike with a 68mm bottom bracket ( ~150mm q-factor stock ) and you end up with an extra 33.5mm of width.. this puts the pedaling characteristics in-line with a fatbike... IE poor.

A majority of research papers say that optimum biomechanical efficiency for a human pedaling a bicycle happens at a 90-110mm Q factor because this is in line with how we walk - feet are usually 3-5 inches apart... not 8 inches.

The wider we go, the more one compartment of the tibia is loaded and the other is offloaded because our tibia and femur interface wants to rub at an angle instead of straight. This can, over time, wear that side of the knee more than the other and also strengthen leg muscles on one side vs the other - your legs are now optimized for cowboy walking, not regular walking.

The patella ( kneecap ) will hurt first because it is the primary stabilizer of the knee.

In addition this inefficiency reduces your pedaling power since you cannot utilize both sides of your leg muscles.

View attachment 339002

It was one month of using a BBS02, after 20 years of bike riding without any pain previously, my leg muscles disbalanced to the point that i gradually developed crippling knee pain, which landed me in physical therapy to retrain my leg muscles to work correctly.

It was found that my left and right kneecaps weren't tracking correctly and also moving in slightly different directions due to this uneven cowboy stance.

If you actually pedal your bike then factors like these in a mid drive design are very important.

That's why i have to personally write off most mid drives including the entire line of CYC products :/

That's very unusual. Many 50+ yr old riders went over from mountain to e-bikes precisely because they were having knee pain or fatigue including heart issues. So they didn't have to pedal as hard. The BBS02 should have plenty of power to pedal lightly with.

The other question I have is: did you put clipless pedals on. There are so many problems that can be caused by those. They have to be fit exactly a certain way for each rider or they are going to accelerate any potential or actual knee problems a rider has. The supposedly 'inferior' flat pedals have plenty of platform to experiment with on the fly for foot placement. Not so with clipless pedals, they have to be manually adjusted while you are off the bike every time, and even then like you said the q-factor may be screwing things up even if the clipless shoes are in the right place. A nice little clipless rant below.

Clipless pedals belong with road racers. So they can be faster to win a race. So that trainers can set them just right, instead of amateurs thinking that they are setting something correctly when they are not. The rest of the cycling community would be just fine without them (whether they know it or not). It's time to throw out the security blanket. They are a carryover from the bad old days in the 1990's when everyone thought mountain bikes were supposed to be as much like road bikes as possible. Back then mountain bike evolution was measured in tiny, painstaking increments, slowly slowly away from the road bike dogma that absolutely dominated at that time. If I had a dollar for every time I've seen someone in front of me struggle up or down a hill and then fall over with clipless pedals. They are for professionals, not average riders. Flat pedals are perfectly fine for 95% of the offroad riders out there and really, even the pavement riders if they are not doing some competitive timing. I remember one pro online saying that another pro was not 'serious' if they were wearing flat pedals on their mountain bike (the other pro was winning local races with flat pedals). Yes in a way that's true: you have to really, really know what you are doing with clipless or there are going to be way more problems than with flat pedals. Including crashes that could have been avoided. Another guy I'm following (expert, not pro) took years to train on flats before they finally made the switch to clipless. They did it right, but we'll see if their crash rate goes up or not. And let's not even start with the knee problems that plague so many other older riders now, because they rode clipless for so long. This argument will probably never be resolved, but more and more riders are sticking with or switching to flat pedals and eventually, most people will hopefully see the light.

 

[neptronix]

That's very unusual. Many 50+ yr old riders went over from mountain to e-bikes precisely because they were having knee pain or fatigue including heart issues. So they didn't have to pedal as hard. The BBS02 should have plenty of power to pedal lightly with.

I'm in my early 40's and am a vigorous pedaler riding in a mountainous area.. i also ride long distances for fun on unpowered bikes ( up to 40 miles in a day ). I have a fairly narrow walking stance and my legs would be at home most on a road bike ( as narrow pedal spacing as you can get away with ).

The other question I have is: did you put clipless pedals on.

Never ever, i refuse to trade safety in the case of a fall for some extra few % of pedaling power. You are correct that these devices must be precisely aligned in order to be in effective; without precise alignment they can harm the ankle/knee long term.

At least with regular pedals your leg can naturally gravitate towards what is good leg alignment / compensate for bad alignment if it exists.

 

[neptronix]

View attachment 339014

The Times They Are A-Changin'

Yeah.... despite the man's width he actually has an average walking stance and this is a bit too wide even for him.

Notice his femur is relatively straight where the correct angle during walking ( what we want to emulate on a bike ) is closer to a 'v'.


On a good mid drive, the spindle length should have a range of adjustability for things like this.

To my knowledge the only mid drives capable of this are:
+ Stoke Monkey ( no longer produced )
+ Lightest bike mid drive
+ DIY creations

Everything else starts out at extra wide and can't get narrower due to how the drivetrain is designed.

 

[Chalo]

One (non) word:

Superpedestrian.

 

[ran-muc]

Ändern.

Es ist einen Monat her, seit mit dem Versand begonnen wurde, und ich habe keine Updates zu meiner Bestellung erhalten. Ich habe die Bestellung 286. Man könnte meinen, sie könnte innerhalb von vier Wochen ein paar Hundert davon verschicken. Ich frage mich, wie viele dieser Kits sie pro Woche verschicken.

Letztes Update auf Indiegogo vor 1 Woche wurden 132 Kits versendet/installiert.

Lightest ebike kit: YOUR BIKE WITH SUPERPOWERS

Lightest is the most compact, light and affordable mid drive ebike system. | Check out 'Lightest ebike kit: YOUR BIKE WITH SUPERPOWERS' on Indiegogo.

www.indiegogo.com

 

[Chalo]

There is a well-funded ($20M in 2019, and and another $125M in '22) e-scooter company named Superpedestrian:

Superpedestrian

Superpedestrian provides cities with the world's safest and most advanced small vehicle technologies. Download the Superpedestrian app to begin riding today.

superpedestrian.com

Ha.

Yeah, that's the thing that resulted when somebody scavenged the remains of the outfit that sold Copenhagen Wheels and then delivered them to buyers something like eight years later.

And it's also an illustration of the difference between a company selling stuff versus one selling promises.

 

[amberwolf]

I think he's drawing comparison between investment time to delivery time...and the resultant failure of the company.

 

[docw009]

This is seriously the first time I a learning of the Copenhagen Wheel. Jeez, what a strange product. Batteries packed inside a direct drive hub? Huh.

So you are drawing a parallel between the Copenhagen Wheel and the Lightest Bike Kit? The LBK seems like a much more reasonable design at least. But Bikee apparently isn’t able to operate at scale. And who knows how on earth they’ve kept the lights on this long.

They must all have day jobs. You can find old Kickstarter pages promising Bikee delivery in summer of 2016. That motor is completely different from what they shipped today.

 

[1boris]

Nobody can give decent review of this motor??

 

[raylo32]

So far most are struggling to simply install them.

Nobody can give decent review of this motor??

 

[neptronix]

Nobody can give decent review of this motor??

To my knowledge only 3 or 4 people on this forum actually have a motor at this point.

 

[richj8990]

Does anyone know if the LIGHTEST kit is compatible with bafang m600 series motor mounts?

No bueno. This motor is shaped differently and has an external sprocket that sticks out past the motor housing, so it can't fit into any e-bike specific frame like the M600 or any other. Unless it's hanging on by one bolt. One of the other sites had a lengthy mid-drive general commentary, and the author was saying they personally knew others that spent thousands of dollars building up a frame and components for the motor that they 'thought' was correct for the frame, and then the motor finally came in the mail but didn't fit. That is a bummer!

 

[uhmwpolyethylene]

THE SUSPENSE.. this motor would be such a game changer... if it actually delivers on efficiency.

Also, I just got some FB ad for yet another crowdfunded motor based on Ceramicspeed as a shaft or chain engine lol I've never even heard of wefunder. I'd imagine they probably have the same terrible buyer protection as Kickstarter and indiegogo. Which are both also terrible for fundraisers because you only get like 2 months I think to raise all that money which is ridiculous. They say they already raised 2 million at ceramic speed... why do they need our money? They're asking people to "invest"...do you like... get a motor?.... do you get profit?

Invest in Driven: A technological leap for e-bikes.

 

[neptronix]

I looked it over.

'Up to 20% more efficient' than what? if we're talking a 20% more efficient drivetrain versus a regular chain, which is 95% already.. all this work, this custom frame, and all these proprietary parts, all which are gonna be much more expensive nets you 97% drivetrain efficiency?

History has shown us that no matter how good it is, people don't buy these proprietary shaft drives because of the price and maintenance. The bike industry has failed to sell shaft drives since their invention in the late 1800's.

 

[richj8990]

But they have these shots of the drive unit installed in OEM frames:

View attachment 339131

So they sent out bad schematics to custom frame builders? Can you find the link to that discussion on another site?

Here's the Bafang M600 image:

And lightest bike:

They can't even use the larger bolt holes that the Bafang motor has. And they didn't even use the motor mounts it came with? I can't see those behind the motor. So maybe someone did jerryrig it on a Bafang-specific frame but trust me, when there is an external drive sprocket like this, any imperfection in the mounting and/or chainline can pop the chain right off under torque. Look at the other Cyclone threads about that happening, even with the smaller-powered ones. It can happen on pavement so imagine how it's going to be long-term offroad.

 

[richj8990]

View attachment 339231
Those appear to be the 3 main mount points for OEM custom frames.

View attachment 339232

A Bafang to LIGHTEST adapter seems plausible.

There have been such mods between Bosch and bafang in the past.

Edit: I have no idea how you would attach the spindle/BB though.

I guess if the motor mounts can attach fine, and there is a 34mm hole for the crank axle/bb, then maybe it would be OK. The whole crankset bb would be floating in air and attached only by the motor mounts and maybe some DIY bolting. But it could be that the pedals end up 1-2 inches behind where they should be, because the motor is supposed to go ahead of the down tube's bottom not behind it. So the frame would need to be pretty long and have longer chainstays, like a 29 L or XL. It may end up feeling like a cramped 26' frame if the pedals are right under the seat.

 

[rhauff]

Bikee Lightest manual is now at rev. 12

 

[Rexluna]

On the Indiegogo comments thread, backer 133 still hasn't received their kit. It feels like Bikee's claim of 9 kits a day being shipped is a long way from reality. At this rate, order numbers at the 300 mark seem unlikely to ship this year.

One concern I have is that they may not even have enough kits to service all their orders.

Anyone have any way of estimating how many kits they've shipped / installed yet? Looking at this thread and at the Facebook group, my best guess is around 50. I don't reckon they're shipping / installing more than 5 a week.

Thoughts?

 

[ran-muc]

Wenn Unterstützer 133 seinen Motor noch nicht erhalten hat, dann hat Bikee die letzten 25 Tage Null Motore verschickt.
Alles irgendwie Grund zur Sorge.
Ich habe ca. die doppelte Bestellnummer wie 132 und Victor hat mir auf Anfrage den November als Versand mitgeteilt.

Wenn ich bis November hochrechne, das sind ca. 8 Wochen ( 40 Arbeitstage ) dann kommen wir auf max. 3- 4 Motore pro Tag .

Gruß Rudi

 

[eggrollspeedway]

Cannot test motor because controller asking for a PIN. Can't find that info in the manual. Anyone know what the temp PIN is?

 

[szkuba]

You need to ask Bikee. It is weird but they did not sent it automatically to the users...