Looking for input into the future of e-bike conversion kits

Dillenger_Australia

Dillenger_Australia

10 W
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
Messages
89
Note: I work for Dillenger Electric Bikes

Following on from a recent thread reviewing some of the pros and cons of one of our 250W conversion kits (link below) we're interested to hear from some of the experienced members from this forum.

Our conversion kits are a major part of our company and are now sold into USA and UK (see websites below if you're wondering what we're talking about).

I'd like to hear what you believe we should be striving for in terms of consumer level conversion kits.

Some of the improvements we've already achieved lately have been the implementation of a removable PAS setup, so that customers don't have to touch the BB for a full installation, as well as optimising the lengths of the wiring (to make everything more tidy), changing over to the 2200mAh 18650 HW cells (from 2000), bring in options for Samsung 2600 and 2900mAh cells in 36 and 48V batteries.

Some of the improvements we are working on now is bluetooth interfacing with the controller to remove the handlebar display altogether.

Apart from these, we're interested to hear from you where you see the industry going and what you'd like to see in future generations of conversion kits.

Don't be shy :mrgreen:



http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=56711&start=100

http://dillengerelectricbikes.com
http://dillengerelectricbikes.co.uk
http://dillenger.com.au
 
Att: Dillenger,

Despite my current satisfaction level of the 250w kit (It's "rather good"), there's always scope for improvement:

  • more power
    more battery capacity; 100km (60 miles) with pedal assist would be a significant milestone.
    lighter; motor/ wheel / battery
    cheaper
    more stealthy
    more accurate battery capacity feedback; the existing one seems to simply be a momentary voltmeter rather than a true gauge
    better installation instructions (text as well as video demo)
 
Although I am happy with the quality of my kit, mostly, the advertised range is very optimistic! Better customer service would be great too I waited for 8+weeks for the torque arm on back order with no updates given. A more realistic range on the 6ah battery would be great as I am extremely disappointed as I am only getting less than half the estimated range you claim on your 6ah 1000w kit. With or without PAS on flat ground only. In order to even come close to the 10-12km claimed I would need a second battery! I have several people at my workplace interested in converting their bikes but would struggle at this point to recommend you as a source.
 
6Ah isn't much for a 1000w setup. You should still get 10km if you don't run above the legal speed. If I keep it under 15Mph and pedal, I can get almost 2.5 miles per ah. This is with a 8t MAC 26" wheels and a 35 amp controller.
Now if I run flat out at 30+, I might get 1 to 1 or 20 miles on 20AH.

We all know that range is almost always less than rated. Dogman always goes by 1 to 1 rating. So I would think that 6Ah pack shold do at least 6 miles if not more. You have to back off the throttle a little and pedal.

Dan
 
Hi Dan,
Thanks for your reply, as you can probably guess, i am a newb when it comes to this and took them on face value. Even so if you say 1-1 in miles is right, I should get more than 6km range @25kph with peddling I can just make 10km on med PAS but they claimed three times that!

Cheers,

Adam.
 
Sorry, I should have said its a 48v 1000w kit performs well apart from being dead with in about 3-4miles in your speak! I have asked the question Dan, when I first tested the kit, and again today. Not yet satisfied with their response. I was told that 6km range not pedaling on flat was expected when they claim 12km range not pedaling on their specs :(
 
A very valid point RE the 6Ah kits. We have changed the range estimation on the website and we've also updated each of these to the 2,200mAh HW cell which will add range and also reduce some previous 'issues' where the draw on the smaller capacity 2,000mAh cells would cause the BMS to cut the power under load (some people don't like pedalling up a cliff).

The 48V 6.6Ah batteries are getting closer to what we wanted for a compact 1,000W kit. We still only advertise them as 6Ah though.

One of the issues we've found with 1,000W kits is that the range is hugely variable which can result in some customers being annoyed if they're not getting the desired range.

We find with the 250W kits that the range is not as dependant on setup or use. For example, we've had reports of customers testing our 8Ah 36V kits with the chain removed and still getting 35km on a normal 26" bike around brisbane. Our max range for this kit would be around 50-60km with pedalling.

Whereas the range on the 1,000W kits is much more dependant on use. For example, if you are using medium to high mode pedal assist and some throttle, given the much higher capacity for discharge (54V @25A) the range is depleted very, very quickly. Other factors effecting range could be a multitude of factors, binding brakes, low tyre pressures, bad charger, etc.)

For customers wanting higher than 6.6Ah but still something compact, we're going to be offering an optional upgraded to 8.8Ah (tube battery style) for around $100 or so. If this upgrade becomes very popular, that might spell the end of the 6Ah kit.

Our 10Ah 1,000W kits have become more popular in the last 6 months than the 6Ah kits. The 10Ah kits use a 2500mAh cell so the range is much better.

One of the draw backs of the 10Ah 1,000W kit last year was that it was incompatible for bikes with dual suspension. This year the kits come with a very strong aluminium mountain bike style rack that holds the battery. So now if a customer has a dual suspension bike, they're not limited to the bottle battery range.

The range of the 6Ah kits sold up till last year is something we have had issues with, having initially quoted the range from an overly ideal testing scenario (mea culpa).

Apologies for the delay in sourcing new torque arms, our stuff up! If there's anything else anyone wants to contact me about that's specific to their order, please email me.

Appreciate the feedback :)
 
My apologies for hijacking your thread and Thank you for your response. I wonder if a thumb throttle could be made available as an option on your kits also.
 
Dillenger_Australia said:
Note: I work for Dillenger Electric Bikes
Click to expand...

G'day Dillenger_Australia

I'd just like to say welcome and respect for having a face on the forum

Alot of the companies we deal with are faceless and unaccountable

So i would say a Dillenger ebike kit thread/help line would be a great idea for you

Thats after sales support, and would prove you stand behind your product and often quicker than emails and saves you explaining the same shuff over and over again, you could direct your customers to it

The other area which i think is missing, is providing a good quality full suspension downhill and xc type ebike in australia

I think theres defiantly a niche there, not every bloke wants a folder or a beach cruiser, or chick a step thru, we want good powered offroad capable bikes, hell there comfy on the road to, just check out the forum 50% of us build on very expensive DH bikes or buy phasers/stealth/quilbix, a dual suspension cargo fattie wheel bike would be awsome to

Not everyones a commuter or beach cruiser, theres alot of us weekend warriors, who want the buzz but not the hassle of an motorbike and the convinence of going to the shop or work on it

The Bombers ott, bosch are rare and expensive, neo jumpers are average, there's defiantly a market in oz for a good, light, reasonably priced, trail/urban hoon machine, with an offroad mode and 250w mode switchable to keep us legal

So in my opion, instead of just reselling chinese stuff, develop/source some bikes, theres not many cargo or dual suspension, quality bikes in australia, again for reasonable price

just my 2 cents
 
Thanks Rhinejuice, all good. We do have thumb throttles now available for all kits as an accessory. They're not yet up online so just send me an email to sam@ and I'll send you one to try out.

Thanks for your input Deffx, your bang on about the requirement in the market place for a built up full suspension downhill and xc e-bike (for under $3,000!). We use to have one that we imported as 250W and then converted to 48V 1,000W but even though it was Al frame the thing weighed an absolute tonne! We haven't followed through on a few prototypes of others because we weren't happy with the durability and performance. I think we're going to take a different tangent this year and find an established carbon frame builder that we can over engineer and adapt either a 750W 48V Bafang mid drive or a 1,500W hub motor with a 35A 48V 20Ah Samsung battery and controller. BH has the market cornered but customers want to go faster, a few companies have done well with Bosch drive systems (as you say) but they're very expensive (Currie Tech's new range, for those who want to spend almost $9,000USD)

Some of the other features I'd like to see on a future dual suspension australian creation would be drive shaft or Gates belt drive, carbon frame, bullet proof construction and a price point of under $2,500AUD/1,500£ (OK, maybe getting a bit carried away).

I'd be interested to know what top speed/power output people would be interested in for an 'off road only' downhill-frame e-bike.

The other aspect we're tossing up is whether we want an battery integrated into the frame (like BH) or something that locks to the frame neatly, like Currie Tech's Haibike: http://www.currietech.com/haibike-nduro-pro-26/
 
Nice to hear your seriously thinking about a good offroad bike,

Not many people here are into carbon, which can fail abrubtly, as we might be travelling at 60 km/h at the time

but if you over engineer it, weights not realy an issue on an ebike, carbon would look great, like the audi ebike

I like the idea of the using bafang mid drive, non propritory, and a stong road and an offroad frame where the bafang motor is raised above the bottom tube and with a battery solution and your onto a winner
 
Hi AU. Canada here. (Urban north american road/path travels, where "off road" and "up/down hills" is mostly a joke).

I am totally jealous of our neighbours (USA) 750W regs (only 500W in Canada eh?).

But regardless, I know that 500W is *plenty* just for urban travels.

Currently I am rolling w/48V 10Ah Li, and 450W (all stock).

So basically I might suggest ya target urban commuters (distances between recharges). Li packs are already getting pretty small/light-weight, so maybe sell seperate packs for when greater ranges are desired.

(BTW, many in NA might snicker at only 250W. Very "Euro". Maybe offer 500-750W motor/controllers for NA markets, but w/caveats about reduced range per pack size.)

Just my 2.05 cents Cdn
L
 
Easy sensorless / Sensored and hall wire detection. Just connect red to red, black to black and any hall to any hall. All 'future' controllers should have this! (Adaptto already does and Grin has it I believe.)

Also, if you could figure out how to include the charging circuit on the bike where a person only needs to plug into AC wall plug like an appliance.
 
Hey guys,

A big Thank you for all of your assistance with my issues! Your help has been great and I am impressed with your after sales service. Looking forward to going for a ride this weekend.
Another suggestion would be to have thinner PAS discs as mine needed modifying to fit with my sealed bb as there is very little clearance between cranks and bb. It seems to be a common issue. Switchable power modes on your 1000w kit would be good too, maybe 350-500-750-1000w would be handy for extending range.

Thanks Again for all your help,

Adam.
 
Just installed it, great kit, amazing feeling jumping on the bike for the first time not knowing what to expect then the the power kicks in throwing you back, hanging onto the handle bars to keep you upright.

I think you're pushing the pro-verbial up hill trying to make a universal kit for all bikes. The problem is that all bikes are not universal, they're all physically different. If you manage to make a perfect universal kit that fits all bikes I'll take my hat off to you, but you've come bloody close with this one.

Your specs mentioned a minimum of 95mm clearance between dropouts, which I had, but the round tubing of the forks meant this distance was less higher up so I had to grind the forks. I also slightly grinded the drop outs to make the axel bolts and torque washers fit, pretty much just took the paint off and it slid in, but not all the way. The M10 washer and nut used to mount the wheel into the dropout was too wide to fit the counter sink on the dropout, I just tightened them up real tight to prevent movement. The PAS sensor could not be mounted on the vertical frame tube as the front deraileur tube clamps were there, so I mounted it on the diagonal frame tube ( sorry I don't know specific bike parts). This meant the sensor protruded too much to mount the pas disc where it was meant to, so I cut the hole out larger and mounted it on the base of the crank arm and held it firmly in place with steel putty. The battery holder mounting holes were not low enough to screw into the lower drink bottle holder hole, I used the existing upper drink bottle thread and drilled a new hole on the frame higher up. The bike I installed it on is a 2011 giant boulder.

You could change the design to fit my bike, but then it wouldn't fit the bikes you've modeled your design on.

A universal kit would be the ultimate goal but perhaps a more realistic kit could come with options for parts of different fits. If a customer isn't 'handy' and orders the wrong part, they could exchange it for a different fit part at their own postage cost.

I think the pas disc could have a smaller diameter. When your cadence is too quick, the magnets move past the proximity sensor too fast and it doesn't seem to register, or is the controller not fast enough to register the pulse? A smaller diameter of the magnets would mean a slower magnet speed and allow a higher cadence. (Or faster processor? )

Having said that, I would definitely buy another one. Fitment issues weren't anything too difficult to come up with a solution to, because the kit is so universal.

10457446_10203141533592787_1130457690_o.jpg
 
New biz Phoenix Ebike Promotions offering DIY trike/seperate box ebike conversion kits:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=60564

(Registered/launched biz say 6 weeks after date of first post in this thread.)












(HA. We got more drink holders than that other grrrl (or guy. Rumoured in vicinity.)) Wifi, anybuddy?
 
Dillenger_Australia said:
I'd be interested to know what top speed/power output people would be interested in for an 'off road only' downhill-frame e-bike.
Click to expand...

Off road doesn't require high speed, so a top speed of only 65kph would be acceptable. Torque requirements are higher than for street riding though, so I'd consider 10-15kw peak motor input a minimum requirement.

There's no doubt that truly off road capable ebikes will command a higher price than their street cousins, but please don't drive costs higher with things having only perceived value, not real value. A kilo or so makes absolutely no difference on an ebike, so forget the carbon dreams until you prove the market and later introduce the higher priced model for those less sensitive to price or simply have more money than sense. Invest instead in more motor and batteries. Your price target is encouraging, so squeeze the margins and fit as much motor and battery aboard as possible.

John
 
So, a team of at least 13 horses. (Might be expensive to feed/maintain? ... and the vet bills...)
 
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