Magic pie 3 controller upgrade

[mclulz]

Hi,

I just bought a magic pie 3 motor kit and a cycle analyst v3, and I'm currently using 12s2p 10Ah Zippy lipo packs. I'm using the system on an old Trek 4500 with 26" wheels.
I just love my new ebike! It's incredible to just be able to go steep uphill at 35kph with little to none pedaling!

But I allready want more POWER! So my initial thought was to upgrade to 14s lipos, so I could reach the 60V max mark. But an upgrade of just 8.4V isn't really that much, and I don't know how much of a difference it would make.
So that breaks it down to my second thought, take out the internal controller and replace it with a high powered external one.

So then to my problem and question:
What is the best controller to use with my magic pie? I'm considering having the option to have up to 100V batteries, just to have the opportunity to upgrade really hard, and the controller must be able to handle quite alot of juice, so 60 - 100A cont must be ok I guess?

What brand is recommended? I see lyen controllers are mentioned, and they have good ratings, and I also see crystalyte controllers but they are rated to max 72V nominal(?), which is a good upgrade, but I want to be able to add even more volts in the future.

Any other brands?

A quick side question: The throttle that came with magic pie 3 system has 3 led's to indicate my batteries voltage which i obviously don't need, is it possible to take out the led's completly?

 

[mclulz]

Seems I posted this in the wrong forum, sorry about that. If a mod sees this he is welcome to move it to the appropriate forum

 

[dogman dan]

A fourth wire, often purple, runs pack voltage to those led's. Figure out which one that is, and disconnect that wire one way or another. Removing the contact from the plug on the throttle side should be easy.

Since you have a CA, if it's a dp model that makes getting a controller with a CA plug a no brainer. Grin's controllers do cost a bit more, but having easy adaptability to a wide range of voltages, and other features can be well worth the money.

But on the other hand, cheap Ebay vendor controllers can work just fine, making buying a 48v 40 amps, and a 72v 40 amps pretty affordable. In the higher voltage (90v on up) and amperage ranges, Lyens supplies some very nice controllers. The 12 fet models are all you need for that pie motor.

 

[mclulz]

Its a stand alone version of CA, I wasn't sure if the magic pie had an internal shunt, and I knew that it didn't have a CA plug so I just took a stand alone version.

Ok, I'll look into the Grin controllers.

What about sensored or sensorless controller? I have experience from RC cars with this, but do I really need a sensored controller? Much easier with sensorless.

What about throttle signal and brake signal etc? Is the signal values about the same for each controller or are they widely different and would I need different throttles and brake levers? And cruise controll, does all controllers have this option, because I find it very usefull on the magic pie.

What about the HPC300 Series from goldenmotor.com? Anyone have experience with those? I'm thinking about going for 23s lipo, so 96.6V max, 85V nominal voltage, to keep it under 100V for the CA (which is 100V max?) Or 24s and discharge it to under 100V.
But the 90V HPC300 is very expensive, like 520 dollars!

 

[o00scorpion00o]

The Pie is really a powerful motor. I was sucking 80 amps battery current and god knows how many phase amps were going into the motor.

I had 24s LiPo and modded a 12 fet infineon. I set the throttle to max 50% on speed 3 on the 3 speed switch, if I remember correctly for 40 mph, I didn't need more. Going with the high voltage and turning the throttle back really made the throttle a lot less sensitive.

The Pie was crazy powerful, it really is a good motor, that is until I tried climbing a 16-20% mountain pulling 3kw from the battery and fried the halls, the motor was never the same again.

But for most normal riding the Pie is all you'll ever need. It accelerates so quick that it only pulls max power for a few seconds. Same when climbing very steep but short hills.

If you want more power try install a temp sensor on the windings and monitor the temps.

I used 12g Alphawire Ecowire which fitted perfectly through the axle along with 5 hall wires.

http://www.alphawire.com/en/Products/Wire/EcoGen/EcoWire/6718

 

[o00scorpion00o]

Its a stand alone version of CA, I wasn't sure if the magic pie had an internal shunt, and I knew that it didn't have a CA plug so I just took a stand alone version.

Ok, I'll look into the Grin controllers.

What about sensored or sensorless controller? I have experience from RC cars with this, but do I really need a sensored controller? Much easier with sensorless.

What about throttle signal and brake signal etc? Is the signal values about the same for each controller or are they widely different and would I need different throttles and brake levers? And cruise controll, does all controllers have this option, because I find it very usefull on the magic pie.

What about the HPC300 Series from goldenmotor.com? Anyone have experience with those? I'm thinking about going for 23s lipo, so 96.6V max, 85V nominal voltage, to keep it under 100V for the CA (which is 100V max?) Or 24s and discharge it to under 100V.
But the 90V HPC300 is very expensive, like 520 dollars!

I'd just go with a 18 fet infineon sensored controller. The Pie and most motors seem to work good in sensorless until 3kw or so after that you can get horrendous out of sync noise and vibration as I experienced after I fried the halls, so keep the halls and you won't regret it.

 

[mclulz]

Thanks for the replies guys!

I've been thinking some about this, and come to the conclusion maybe 21s is enough, then the 40A 12fet infineon controller seem to work, doesn't it?
Thinking of going 21s2p pack of 10Ah.
That should be around 3 - 4kW, maybe peaks over that. But that should be plenty power I guess.

Yes, was considering installing a temp sensor, but haven't gotten that far yet. Still debating on which controller to decide on, but the Infineon 12fet 40A seems to be the best choice for now.

I guess I need torque arms now? ;p

By the way, are the lumenator lights from ebikes.ca any good?

 

[RoadWrinkle]

Also might want to use some marine silicone to make the MP3 a bit more water resistant. Bypassing the internal controller I a good idea. :wink:

 

[o00scorpion00o]

Thanks for the replies guys!

I've been thinking some about this, and come to the conclusion maybe 21s is enough, then the 40A 12fet infineon controller seem to work, doesn't it?
Thinking of going 21s2p pack of 10Ah.
That should be around 3 - 4kW, maybe peaks over that. But that should be plenty power I guess.

Yes, was considering installing a temp sensor, but haven't gotten that far yet. Still debating on which controller to decide on, but the Infineon 12fet 40A seems to be the best choice for now.

I guess I need torque arms now? ;p

By the way, are the lumenator lights from ebikes.ca any good?

The 40 amp Infineon is pretty good, just make sure you get the program cable so you can adjust it.

21S should be good for 40 mph or more and is within safe limits fully charged for the infineon. IMO it won't be before long you'll want 60+ amps, at that stage you should really have an 18 fet, however I managed to mod the 40 amp infineon for 80 amps, and it worked fine, but I wouldn't expect it to dish out that amps for more than a few seconds, but it worked fine for me.

2 Torque arms are essential, if using regen make sure to install them so that one works going forward and the other in reverse so that regen won't loosen the nuts. I would have been using them with the internal controller.

3-4kw will make you smile, but the pie is well capable of 5kw, you just need to watch the really steep long hills, 16% -20% would probably make it very hot, if it starts to bog down too much that is when you need to watch out. A temp sensor is essential imo, especially while you have the motor apart, check out the speedict kit. It's handy for displaying the temps and limiting power.

The pie is a super motor and good enough for any bike, after that you're talking cromotor etc but that's imo stupid power for a bicycle. At the end at that power level you'll need a battery the size of the bike itself. Unless you have a prober custom frame I think the cromotor is not suitable for a bicycle, unless it's heavily modified.

Yes the cycle lumenator from ebikes.ca is brilliant, I got the one at the time which had a very wide beam which imo is unsuitable for road use but excellent for trails, I think they have a narrower beam now ?

 

[o00scorpion00o]

BTW mclulz, would you be so kind as to update your location ?

 

[mclulz]

Sounds good! I'm going to order a 40amp 12fet controller, lights and a temp sensor.
We'll see about going for more power than this, I don't want to kill myself ;p

One thing, can I use my CA SA version as a direct plugin version on this controller?
And where can I find a programming cable for this controller, can't seem to find any on the ebikes.ca site.

Location updated.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

Sounds good! I'm going to order a 40amp 12fet controller, lights and a temp sensor.
We'll see about going for more power than this, I don't want to kill myself ;p

One thing, can I use my CA SA version as a direct plugin version on this controller?
And where can I find a programming cable for this controller, can't seem to find any on the ebikes.ca site.

Location updated.

Ah you're getting the ebikes.ca one, I'm not sure if that's programmable ? it has the connector on the pcb but I'm not sure if anyone has programmed it yet ?

They use an older version on the infineon, maybe it's updated now. Really cool though they have an on off switch which eliminates sparks.

You need the ca-dp or the dps if you get a geared hub such as a mac in the future.

If you get the controller from lyen or cell-man you can request a cable, it's very useful.

The regen from the ebikes controller is very weak, but it may be stronger now.

 

[mclulz]

Sounds good! I'm going to order a 40amp 12fet controller, lights and a temp sensor.
We'll see about going for more power than this, I don't want to kill myself ;p

One thing, can I use my CA SA version as a direct plugin version on this controller?
And where can I find a programming cable for this controller, can't seem to find any on the ebikes.ca site.

Location updated.

Ah you're getting the ebikes.ca one, I'm not sure if that's programmable ? it has the connector on the pcb but I'm not sure if anyone has programmed it yet ?

They use an older version on the infineon, maybe it's updated now. Really cool though they have an on off switch which eliminates sparks.

You need the ca-dp or the dps if you get a geared hub such as a mac in the future.

If you get the controller from lyen or cell-man you can request a cable, it's very useful.

The regen from the ebikes controller is very weak, but it may be stronger now.

Was thinking that yes. Maybe I should order directly from Lyen instead, and ask for a programming cable at the same time?

I don't use the regen much now, because I don't like the idea to charge the batteries unbalanced with regen, the cells may become unbalanced. And they may become overcharged if the batteries are just recharged.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

it is possible for the cells to be over charged if you set off down a hill after a full charge but unlikely after a mile or two of riding as you won't put that amount of energy back in the pack in a hurry.

You can set the regen limit and Lyen can I think set it for you, just tell him the max voltage of your battery and regen voltage, for example the number of cells x 4.15 volts, so say your battery is 20 s that would be 83 volts charged.

You should be checking your cell balance every single time before after and during charging if you do it's unlikely regen will over charge any cells. Failure to check LiPo cells is carelessness and can cause fire and death.

I'm sure you read the LiPo threads in the battery section ? if not it would be very wise to do some research first, it will be very bad to have a lipo fire, especially if it happens in the house/apartment etc.

 

[mclulz]

I have used lipo batteries for many years in rc racing, no worries there. I have balance chargers, usually only charge at 1c and carefully handle my packs.
I know regen isn't bringing alot of amps back to the battery, but I had a regen power of 700w the other day, and thats almost 15A back to the batteries, and they were fully charged (I live on the top of a hill) so they could have been overcharged. I do luckily have much experience with lipos and I slowed down and brought the regen down to a minimum.

Thankfully I have never had a lipo fire, I have only damaged cells on over-discharge. (much higher amp draw, like 120+ easily, and lower voltage in rc)

Cool, then I will talk with lyen and make him set regen limit to 88V. Can he set low voltage cut as well? Well I guess I can easily program it myself