New Bosch Motor.

[Bike_on]

Cross-

What is the weight of that bike? I could not find anything in print.

 

[4REEE]

The M4 Optibike series is $6500 and has 400W. This has 250W. Apples to apples.

Didn't know the M4 was in full production, so I went with what they had on their website: The R-Series.

I was just hoping that these bikes (Trek, Giant, Haibike) would be wayyyyyy less than $6K USD.

 

[skyungjae]

The M4 Optibike series is $6500 and has 400W. This has 250W. Apples to apples.

Didn't know the M4 was in full production, so I went with what they had on their website: The R-Series.

I was just hoping that these bikes (Trek, Giant, Haibike) would be wayyyyyy less than $6K USD.

I doubt Trek or Giant will release their e-bikes in the US market anytime soon for various reasons.

That Optibike M4 doesn't look nearly as nice as the full suspension Giant. :wink:

 

[4REEE]

That Optibike M4 doesn't look nearly as nice as the full suspension Giant. :wink:

True that.

I doubt Trek or Giant will release their e-bikes in the US market anytime soon for various reasons.

With very little competition, it sounds like the mid-drive market will remain expensive in the US... At least until Haibikes come in through Currie.

 

[speedmd]

To me, the factory mid drives as nice as they appear are twice as expensive as the market will bare. I see them all killing each other to grab at crumbs as the low priced kits continue getting better and have more options.

 

[comradegerry]

The old bosch motor seems pretty good, the newer one should be even better.

For a person that wants to build their own DH E MTB without access to a machine shop, this is not a bad option at the price.

http://www.orangebc.com/de/produkte/antriebssysteme/AVE-xh11-Framekit.html

There is a bike out there for everbody.

Some will think $250 at Walmart is expensive.

Some will think $1000 for a good set of forks is a steal.

I think the AVE is going in the right direction, especially as they are willing to sell it as just a core.

My 2 cents, Gerard

 

[4REEE]

The only problem I have with the AVE xh11 is that the battery capacity is a tiny 8 Ah.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

The only problem I have with the AVE xh11 is that the battery capacity is a tiny 8 Ah.

You'd be very surprised how far 8ah will take you on a bosch.
If you don't pedal and only use full power then it might be low but I did 42 miles the other day here in Germany on the Raleigh and only used 20% of the battery using it only for hills.

 

[Hillhater]

With all the real estate dedicated to that drive they should've put the transmission in there and thrown the rear derailleur in the trash where it belongs.

but that would just put so much more tension load in the chain and create more sprocket wear,..especially at low speed.
Bigger sprocket on the wheel , keeps the chain loads lower.
Small sprocket on the front,..keeps the motor & gear train speed higher = less torque loading, less gearing reduction, less friction losses !

 

[speedmd]

The old bosch motor seems pretty good, the newer one should be even better.

For a person that wants to build their own DH E MTB without access to a machine shop, this is not a bad option at the price.

Some will think $1000 for a good set of forks is a steal.

Hi Gerard

These are all what I would call novelty bikes and not ultimate performance machines. Agree some folks pay a stupid amount of money for stuff and don't blink a eye. They are high priced because they lack competition. Not sure anyone not wanting the latest and greatest would pay the price unless they were hyped on one aspect or another. I think the pas only systems will be a hard sell at these prices when most folks have older mtn bikes just collecting dust and just want to tinker a bit. Plus the bike is dedicated to the system and can not revert back to a normal bike.

When the knock offs start showing up in mass from the four corners of the world, you will see a drastic reduction in price and closer to what they are worth IMO.

You'd be very surprised how far 8ah will take you on a bosch.
If you don't pedal and only use full power then it might be low but I did 42 miles the other day here in Germany on the Raleigh and only used 20% of the battery using it only for hills.

Funny, if you don't use it at all, it will go forever on a charge. It would seriously piss me off to pedal this tank full time all the way to the bottom of the hills. I would just leave the f'n thing at home and ride the feather weight and sweat a bit on the small climbs that 20% of 8ah will get you over. Understand if you have medical issues, but it is seriously under capacity for most ebike commuter situations if you want to travel at some reasonable speeds.

 

[Bike_on]

To me, the factory mid drives as nice as they appear are twice as expensive as the market will bare. I see them all killing each other to grab at crumbs as the low priced kits continue getting better and have more options.

Speedmd,

So you think mid drives should be bout 3k? Due to market or value?

I will say 5k is more in line with a fair retail price. Kalkoff sells their mid drives at 4k, and they have been around and done this with enough volume to know their price point. It's the cheap hub designs that skew the value, imo. Start adding expensive shocks and rugged mtn components and 5K and 6k is not far off.

I agree that any ebike is a novelty in today's market. They are new, unproven, cutting edge/ enviro minded, and expensive.

About the Bosch and Trek/Haibike designs, I really think their inverted motor, custom frame approach is novel and deserves cudos. The balance and reduced weight of a mid drive, combined with a suspension cannot be matched in hub for off road. i like their clearance height and COG design.

 

[Bike_on]

That Optibike M4 doesn't look nearly as nice as the full suspension Giant. :wink:

True that.

I doubt Trek or Giant will release their e-bikes in the US market anytime soon for various reasons.

With very little competition, it sounds like the mid-drive market will remain expensive in the US... At least until Haibikes come in through Currie.

Has Currie agreed to carry them? With Stromer and Eflo at 4k and they are hubs with upgraded components, I don't expect a mid drive with fox shocks to be any less.

 

[Bike_on]

With all the real estate dedicated to that drive they should've put the transmission in there and thrown the rear derailleur in the trash where it belongs.

but that would just put so much more tension load in the chain and create more sprocket wear,..especially at low speed.
Bigger sprocket on the wheel , keeps the chain loads lower.
Small sprocket on the front,..keeps the motor & gear train speed higher = less torque loading, less gearing reduction, less friction losses !

also = less speed and gear range. Part of the value of a mid drive is the optimum motor speed under various speeds and loads and one needs a good gear range to do that.

Nice point HH about chain tension and wear. I count that as the trade off for the mid drive. Rohloff speed hub and nuvinci and great alt to cassettes, but they may have more losses too.

 

[speedmd]

So you think mid drives should be bout 3k? Due to market or value?

I will say 5k is more in line with a fair retail price.

I don't agree, Anything much over $2500 starts to become a market killer for a 8AH 20mph novelty commuter. Maybe when things pick up a bit the market may improve, but not how the economy is treading water now. Just my opinion. Keep a look at the kits / bikes coming out of the east. I think it's going to be a blood bath.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

So you think mid drives should be bout 3k? Due to market or value?

I will say 5k is more in line with a fair retail price.

I don't agree, Anything much over $2500 starts to become a market killer for a 8AH 20mph novelty commuter. Maybe when things pick up a bit the market may improve, but not how the economy is treading water now. Just my opinion. Keep a look at the kits / bikes coming out of the east. I think it's going to be a blood bath.

The 2013 Bosch bikes are 11 ah.

The haibike I bought is a very high quality bike and I'm more than willing to pay for something that works, I have 650 miles on the bike in 3.5 weeks and would have a lot more,only I'm in Germany since Sunday. So I use it a lot and can justify the spending.

I've seen some awful cheap Chinese bikes that look and cycle like cheap shit, and are good if people don't care about quality or are simply not willing to spend money on a good quality bike. As a commuter who doesn't want to pedal they are fine.

People spend 7 thousand euros and more on normal bikes with carbon.

You can buy a bomber for the cost of a 2nd hand car if you want power but eventually the law will come down hard on bomber power. That to me is crazy money, nice bike but it is far from being a bicycle.

Bosch also have the S pedelec which will do 30 mph but can't be used on cycle lanes. The S pedelec is above the legal limit for most places. But it is an option if the 17 mph limit of the normal bike is too low for some.

I won't be going back to hubs any time soon as the Bosch with its 500 watts has pulled me up places that owners of a hub motor can only dream of. To me the health benefits alone of cycling far out weigh the cost of the bike. If I only used it once a month then it would be a waste. My health has improved greatly since I converted my bike with the mac, my knees are a different matter and so the bike is essential to me now but hopefully my weak muscles will improve.

I used to complain of the limit on the Bosch before I bought it but I can pedal at 20 mph on level ground with little wind and I'm getting much needed exercise which also makes me feel good after. A lot more should be done to encourage people to cycle and to get as much exercise as possible and that won't happen on bikes with throttle only.

I believe there will come a time when the law will catch on and come down hard on illegal bikes and conversions or like New York, completely ban them. But the law is there already in the E.U to govern e-bikes so that can't happen with legal bikes the limits are there for good reasons and I know that's hard for some here on ES to understand. I doubt the 20 mph and throttle will be allowed in the U.S forever, especially if thousands of bikes start selling.

 

[crossbreak]

With all the real estate dedicated to that drive they should've put the transmission in there and thrown the rear derailleur in the trash where it belongs.

but that would just put so much more tension load in the chain and create more sprocket wear,..especially at low speed.
Bigger sprocket on the wheel , keeps the chain loads lower.
Small sprocket on the front,..keeps the motor & gear train speed higher = less torque loading, less gearing reduction, less friction losses !

also = less speed and gear range. Part of the value of a mid drive is the optimum motor speed under various speeds and loads and one needs a good gear range to do that.

Nice point HH about chain tension and wear. I count that as the trade off for the mid drive. Rohloff speed hub and nuvinci and great alt to cassettes, but they may have more losses too.

Guess you've missed the point: The new bosch an overdrive gearbox for the cranks that induces additional drag to the cranks. Motor does not feel any more comfortable than before, over all reduction stays almost the same for the motor, it just uses less reduction to the output sprocket. Rider feels less comfortable due additional drag by the additional overdrive gearbox.

Gear range is set by the sprockets on the wheel. It does not change at all when using a different chainwheel. For a 36T-12T cassette it always stays 300% with a single chainwheel.

No doubt, with higher chain speeds, chain stress would be reduced. But i doubt they increased chain speed. They just left it as it was and still use tiny 11T sprockets on the wheel that fail frequently.

 

[Lebowski]

Guess you've missed the point: The new bosch an overdrive gearbox for the cranks that induces additional drag to the cranks. Motor does not feel any more comfortable than before, over all reduction stays almost the same for the motor, it just uses less reduction to the output sprocket. Rider feels less comfortable due additional drag by the additional overdrive gearbox.

No doubt, with higher chain speeds, chain stress would be reduced. But i doubt they increased chain speed. They just left it as it was and still use tiny 11T sprockets on the wheel that fail frequently.

Yep... the advantage is the reduced torque on the output shaft... they
had lots of problems with a nasty ticking noise (replaced the motor
on my GF's bike for this) so I guess that's the way they hope to prevent this.

 

[crossbreak]

overdrive ratio is 2.5 output sprocket is 15T. So the "virtual" chainwheel has only 37.5T. So chain speed was reduced in fact, giving more load to the chain . I remember right the old drive came with a 42T chainwheel. Cassette is 34-11T, just as I thought :x

For Germans or people who know google this can be read here: http://www.elektrofahrrad24.de/2014-e-bike-trek-powerfly-5-29-mtb

I would never want an ebike with a chainwheel smaller than 52T, makes just no sense in my eyes

 

[wineboyrider]

By "small crank" do you all mean the tiny "chainring" or sprocket attached to the crank? That thing is tiny? Does it spin faster than the crank? Maybe the internals increase the rotational speed of the crank to reduce torque all the way through to the "crank / chainring".

With all the real estate dedicated to that drive they should've put the transmission in there and thrown the rear derailleur in the trash where it belongs.

Better yet an internal hub? like a nexux 7 or 8

 

[o00scorpion00o]

So crossbreak, are you,saying the new bosch motor creates resistance while peddling without motor assistance ?

I found the Raleigh bike easy to pedal without assistance compared to,the haibike with SRAM dual drive II in the rear hub.

Maybe the SRAM hub will looses up over time ?

Someone said to change the sram for the rohloff speed hub ? But I don't know if it could be retrofitted to the haibike ?

 

[crossbreak]

yes, both overdrive and internal-gear-hub induce additional drag. I would go for derailleur, still the best. Rohloss is the internal-gear-hub with the least drag. fits in any bike almost, since it come in different versions.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

That is too bad then, to me it's a step backwards.


Bosch must feel that anyone who buys an electric bike won't bother to pedal without assistance.

It's such a shame because the motor is so good.

I just can't understand why bosch didn't use 3 chainrings, simple, cheap and efficient.

The Raleigh without rear gear hub is so different than the SRAM hub, but you need 3 chain rings.

Such stupid decisions!!!

 

[speedmd]

So you think mid drives should be bout 3k? Due to market or value?

I will say 5k is more in line with a fair retail price.

I don't agree, Anything much over $2500 starts to become a market killer for a 8AH 20mph novelty commuter. Maybe when things pick up a bit the market may improve, but not how the economy is treading water now. Just my opinion. Keep a look at the kits / bikes coming out of the east. I think it's going to be a blood bath.

The 2013 Bosch bikes are 11 ah.

The haibike I bought is a very high quality bike and I'm more than willing to pay for something that works, I have 650 miles on the bike in 3.5 weeks and would have a lot more,only I'm in Germany since Sunday. So I use it a lot and can justify the spending.

I've seen some awful cheap Chinese bikes that look and cycle like cheap shit, and are good if people don't care about quality or are simply not willing to spend money on a good quality bike. As a commuter who doesn't want to pedal they are fine.

People spend 7 thousand euros and more on normal bikes with carbon.

You can buy a bomber for the cost of a 2nd hand car if you want power but eventually the law will come down hard on bomber power. That to me is crazy money, nice bike but it is far from being a bicycle.

Bosch also have the S pedelec which will do 30 mph but can't be used on cycle lanes. The S pedelec is above the legal limit for most places. But it is an option if the 17 mph limit of the normal bike is too low for some.

I won't be going back to hubs any time soon as the Bosch with its 500 watts has pulled me up places that owners of a hub motor can only dream of. To me the health benefits alone of cycling far out weigh the cost of the bike. If I only used it once a month then it would be a waste. My health has improved greatly since I converted my bike with the mac, my knees are a different matter and so the bike is essential to me now but hopefully my weak muscles will improve.

I used to complain of the limit on the Bosch before I bought it but I can pedal at 20 mph on level ground with little wind and I'm getting much needed exercise which also makes me feel good after. A lot more should be done to encourage people to cycle and to get as much exercise as possible and that won't happen on bikes with throttle only.

I believe there will come a time when the law will catch on and come down hard on illegal bikes and conversions or like New York, completely ban them. But the law is there already in the E.U to govern e-bikes so that can't happen with legal bikes the limits are there for good reasons and I know that's hard for some here on ES to understand. I doubt the 20 mph and throttle will be allowed in the U.S forever, especially if thousands of bikes start selling.

Agree, our days are numbered. Soon as the bigs get wind that the cars are sitting still in driveways everywhere collecting dust and the insurance policies start getting cancelled, we will all be out laws. Quiet and Stealth will be the new black.

Check out this mid for pricing. http://stepinternational.en.made-in...ina-36V-250W-MID-Drive-of-Electric-Cycle.html It is on another thread. At $177, the 5k bikes are seriously out of step. I would expect some bugs need working out, but price point will kill market for the other novelty bikes.

Don't agree, with the china /crap comment. Lots of bad stuff, no doubt, but lots of good stuff also. Much of the top name brand stuff is made there now. Most of the west /europe have no idea what is coming for them IMO.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

Yes sure, some Chinese stuff is good, the bafang motors have got better quality and cell mans kits, but what I was saying is that most if not all the bikes I have seen in Ireland are cheap Chinese hub motor crap.

The motor in the link looks interesting, and at that price would make conversion a really cheap option.

The thing with the bosch is it works so good without a throttle that it has to be experienced and I don't think many can offer the same smoothness. Certainly non have proved to be as powerful as the bosch, just yet.

I'm sure there is a market for cheap bikes because to some people it's just a bike and to people like me who is seriously into cycling quality matters and I'm willing to pay for it, this is the difference.

So the Bosch may be for novelty commuters as you say and for people who like cycling and quality like me.

Then the rest will buy the cheap stuff, it may not be nearly as good but it does the job, certainly a lot of people can't just shell out 2500 euros on a bike, but I've seen bosch bikes go for 1500 euros, the 2012 models, the likes of the Raleigh which are fine bikes but don't have the 3 speed SRAM hub which will prevent the steepest of climbs but good for most people's needs.

I've seen horrible cheap hub motor Chinese bikes selling in Ireland for 1500 euros and I would buy the Raleigh with bosch motor any day even for 200 euros more.

 

[crossbreak]

I just can't understand why bosch didn't use 3 chainrings, simple, cheap and efficient.

One is fine if the motor has 1000W, it is not ok if it has only 250W. Really bad decisions. They should make a built-in shift gearbox with 11 speeds and 400% spread, all problems solved