GCinDC
100 MW
cool mod! but are you using sealant between the pvc tube and the bearing?billyjones454 said:
Oil cooling your hub- NOT snake oil!
- Thread starter Spicerack
- Start date
billyjones454
100 mW
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2011
- Messages
- 44
No sealant between tube and bearing. I was concerned the sealant would bead off under friction. The tube is not a hard PVC pipe, it is a stiff rubbery consistancy. It smells kind of like vinyl when cutting/sanding, but I don't know exactly what it is.
I've found the chinese hubs have the right setup to do oil cooling. the only place for the oil to get out is the wire hole and the bearings. cover the wire hole and bearing with gasket silicone as well as the covers, and you got yourself an oil cooled hub. using dexron 3 and 6kw for now. i drilled 2 holes near the axle on the gear side, one is covered with tape (open and close it for adding oil if the bike tips) the other has the piece of red straw siliconed in. in heindsight its better just to drill a single hole just slightly larger than a needle.
GCinDC
100 MW
whose aversion?ian.mich said:
are you serious? it took me 5x as long, and nevermind maintenance, esp if there's a leak. then buy new disc brake pads (min $25)... once the motor's apart, drilling sidecovers takes 15 minutes. sealing against leaks, fastening the halls and wires to protect against hot spinning oil - or did you not do that? - takes lots of extra time. and if you then have to take it apart, mess, mess, mess. i'm not against it, but for me, it takes a lot longer. and mine was done perfectly - until i went over 100C and then it leaked through the bearing...ian.mich said:
btw, i thought you said mineral oil was perfect and now you're saying dextron? have you switched? why? doing a lot of maintenance?
GCinDC said:
i potted the halls in epoxy and covered all the wiring with etape and then the fiberglass stuff. that is things i would do anyway if i was doing holes. I've never had to take apart the motor and i sealed the motor properly so it doesnt leak. all in all it probably would take me more time to drill holes as siliconing the covers and wire holes. so yeah, i'm serious.
I still think minerals good, but i found dexron 3 is designed to make gasket silicone expand, so i did it instead, plus i never intend to open the motor so the ickyness isnt a factor.
liveforphysics
100 TW
ian.mich said:
Dextron FTW.
zro-1
1 kW
(I'm new here, this is my first post) I kind of read fast through this thread to get caught up so I may have missed it, but I thought I'd share the link to the BGSU paper that bigmoose mentioned back on page 1. This is direct from the BGSU website: http://www.bgsu.edu/downloads/tech/file55536.pdf
There is some really interesting stuff in it. The flow and routing/scavenging stuff wouldn't be applicable to the hub motor people since a splash/bath system works fine in a hub motor. I myself am working on a mid drive using an RC motor with planetary reduction. After reading this thread and the linked BGSU paper I'm now revising some stuff to have a feed-through axle and a sump in the bottom of the shell. I'll be starting a thread once I have my thoughts and designs a little more together.
Hope the link helps.
bigmoose said:
There is some really interesting stuff in it. The flow and routing/scavenging stuff wouldn't be applicable to the hub motor people since a splash/bath system works fine in a hub motor. I myself am working on a mid drive using an RC motor with planetary reduction. After reading this thread and the linked BGSU paper I'm now revising some stuff to have a feed-through axle and a sump in the bottom of the shell. I'll be starting a thread once I have my thoughts and designs a little more together.
Hope the link helps.
bigmoose
1 MW
zro-1 welcome to the board! Glad you found the material interesting. The IEEE paper I referenced has cut away drawings of the motor and the lube/scavenge system that isn't in the summary still on the BGSU web site. They used to have the paper up, but took it down about 4 years ago... sad thing is their lab has been disbanded, the equipment sold, and the faculty scattered... a sad state of affairs for a team that was blazing the trail 10 years ago!
GCinDC
100 MW
so... my vented and varnished methtek hs3540 had a tiny shorting problem... perhaps too much time at the beach (highlights vid here 
).
trackman's got the stator now (his photo) and is rewinding it.
so i got a new ebikessf hs3540 and drilled out the sidecovers, soaked it in Boeshield T9 (stupidly saturating the windings) but now i'm baffled!
it runs much hotter (light blue & orange line) @4kw than my old varnished methtek (red line).
imperfect comparison, to be sure - same nighttime route, sometimes faster than other times, sometimes drawing more current than other times, but trying to go as hard as i could, considering traffic, lights, etc. but the temp delta is significant!
at first i wondered if the T9 in the windings acted as insulator, slowing cooling... i contacted justin and he doesn't use it on windings, only on stator, laminations and magnet ring.
he said xlyte is known to get stators from different sources... and/or perhaps it was wound differently... i got the methtek one in the fall of 2011 and the ebikessf one is a '2012 model'...
).
trackman's got the stator now (his photo) and is rewinding it.
so i got a new ebikessf hs3540 and drilled out the sidecovers, soaked it in Boeshield T9 (stupidly saturating the windings) but now i'm baffled!
it runs much hotter (light blue & orange line) @4kw than my old varnished methtek (red line).
imperfect comparison, to be sure - same nighttime route, sometimes faster than other times, sometimes drawing more current than other times, but trying to go as hard as i could, considering traffic, lights, etc. but the temp delta is significant!
at first i wondered if the T9 in the windings acted as insulator, slowing cooling... i contacted justin and he doesn't use it on windings, only on stator, laminations and magnet ring.
he said xlyte is known to get stators from different sources... and/or perhaps it was wound differently... i got the methtek one in the fall of 2011 and the ebikessf one is a '2012 model'...
billyjones454
100 mW
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2011
- Messages
- 44
So, how much dex III should I put in my motor?
billyjones454
100 mW
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2011
- Messages
- 44
So what happens if I put more than that in?
GCinDC
100 MW
i believe 100ml was recommended before.billyjones454 said:
i put an absurd amount in mine, about 300ml, because i was experimenting. i had some leaks though and was able to lay the bike on the side and drain quite a lot.
if i put only 50-80ml in, i don't think i could even drain it by laying it on the side.
i really think a lot wicks into the windings.
if i do it again, and i probably will this winter, i'm going to between 100-200, probably 150ml.
GCinDC said:
personally i feel the key to this is less is more, for sure quit a bit wicks into the windings, but in a 9c or chinese hub there is less copper so 50-100 is probably enough to create a solid circle of oil while the motor is spinning. so far, ive had no leaks even when kocking the bike over other than a few drops out the axle. i've gotten the motor hot enough for some of the paint to bubble on the outside, but the motors still kicking as hard as the maiden voyage.
itchynackers
100 kW
FYI, I was running 300ml just prior to the Pikes race. I put in an extra 100ml "for good measure". No load current was still only at about 2.2a at 115.4V.
Kris B Krunch
100 mW
I'm thinking of giving this a go with my BMC V2T on my upcoming Kona Stinky version 2.0
Whiplash
1 MW
- Joined
- May 10, 2010
- Messages
- 2,906
I overloaded a Mac planetary bearing with too much overdrive in my gearing, the plastic gears were fine just killed the bearing, do any of you think ATF in the hub would help this? I'm thinking the lubrication might help and atf is designed to support bearings under high pressure..??
Spicerack
10 kW
Put a good quality unsealed bearing in the gears and yes I think at will help. I had one bearing which was bad from the outset so putting decent ones in is a good idea anyway.
For those who are interested, my oil cooled Mac is still going strong and keeping temps in check. Normal temps at 50-55km/h top cruising speed are 70-80 celcius. Higher than I'd like but then I'm pushing 2kw+ through the poor little thing and a super heavy bike and rider combo...
For those who are interested, my oil cooled Mac is still going strong and keeping temps in check. Normal temps at 50-55km/h top cruising speed are 70-80 celcius. Higher than I'd like but then I'm pushing 2kw+ through the poor little thing and a super heavy bike and rider combo...
Now I have seen the oil cooled discussion I think that looks like a good idea cheers (more sleepless nights thinking).
I would like to drill out a single hole between the spokes and then slightly dremmel a v shaped oil catchment channel inside. Then up to 3 or 4 twelve inch coils of 6mm copper pipe attached to the spokes. The centrifugal and rotational force should create positive pressure that spits it back in the cassette/gear side onto the coils. Perhaps via 6mm rubber tubing to avoid touching the cassette while trying to get down behind it to the center where its needed. I might find something ring like to try to distribute the oil onto several areas of the coils. But hope the pressure from the spirals spinning will push it out at a fast rate to cover everything. I might do a test with fishtank air hose filled with water and my bike upside down to see how far it squirts ooh er.
Have you ever used a water barrel walker pump at camping places. it looks like a grass flattener but has coils of hose inside that pumps the water out as you walk. Looks a bit like this
Then you would only need enough oil roughly to fill the copper pipes, maybe 30cc excess to avoid shortage at high rpm and not have a hub half filled with heavy messy oil. It might be less likely to leak out and actually move the heat from the hub entirely rather than trying to pass it to the body where the composite gears contact.
Imagine a coil like this was on a bike wheel and you walked to the left as you look at it. The weight of 5 feet of oil being flung outwards will oppose the 10 inches of return path back to the coils. Even at slow speeds the gravity should still continue to pump fluid but at a slower rate. With gravity and centrifugal force I would imagine some good usable pressure will arise. If I test this with water I will see how far it goes as a rough gauge externally on my conhis wheel.
Then a second vent to release pressure is fed into a very small catchment tank that can be aligned above the wheel over night so the few drops that went astray go back inside. So the tank would have two pipes, an air inlet (plus minor oil drips) and an air outlet only. If the air output release hose was fed into the center of the tiny tank, air could escape while retaining oil. Might have to make it, or modify an inline fuel filter but something of this shape and size
Once I have my motor and test it up my 400feet 18% hills I may not have to worry but I do like my stuff to last as long as possible. I would rather take it apart once every three years to replace oil (or just install the system) than every year to replace parts.
Keeping it balanced might be an issue but I only do 25mph max. I mostly bought the motor to kill hills at 15mph.
I think metal drive cogs and oil would be a great mix. Passing some heat away to the body, allowing for big amps and hopefully be quiet due to the oil so you cant hear people whinging about it,,,I mean hear the wizz noise lol
Has anyone decided if these oils degrade the coil lamination stuff yet?
I would like to drill out a single hole between the spokes and then slightly dremmel a v shaped oil catchment channel inside. Then up to 3 or 4 twelve inch coils of 6mm copper pipe attached to the spokes. The centrifugal and rotational force should create positive pressure that spits it back in the cassette/gear side onto the coils. Perhaps via 6mm rubber tubing to avoid touching the cassette while trying to get down behind it to the center where its needed. I might find something ring like to try to distribute the oil onto several areas of the coils. But hope the pressure from the spirals spinning will push it out at a fast rate to cover everything. I might do a test with fishtank air hose filled with water and my bike upside down to see how far it squirts ooh er.
Have you ever used a water barrel walker pump at camping places. it looks like a grass flattener but has coils of hose inside that pumps the water out as you walk. Looks a bit like this
Then you would only need enough oil roughly to fill the copper pipes, maybe 30cc excess to avoid shortage at high rpm and not have a hub half filled with heavy messy oil. It might be less likely to leak out and actually move the heat from the hub entirely rather than trying to pass it to the body where the composite gears contact.
Imagine a coil like this was on a bike wheel and you walked to the left as you look at it. The weight of 5 feet of oil being flung outwards will oppose the 10 inches of return path back to the coils. Even at slow speeds the gravity should still continue to pump fluid but at a slower rate. With gravity and centrifugal force I would imagine some good usable pressure will arise. If I test this with water I will see how far it goes as a rough gauge externally on my conhis wheel.
Then a second vent to release pressure is fed into a very small catchment tank that can be aligned above the wheel over night so the few drops that went astray go back inside. So the tank would have two pipes, an air inlet (plus minor oil drips) and an air outlet only. If the air output release hose was fed into the center of the tiny tank, air could escape while retaining oil. Might have to make it, or modify an inline fuel filter but something of this shape and size
Once I have my motor and test it up my 400feet 18% hills I may not have to worry but I do like my stuff to last as long as possible. I would rather take it apart once every three years to replace oil (or just install the system) than every year to replace parts.
Keeping it balanced might be an issue but I only do 25mph max. I mostly bought the motor to kill hills at 15mph.
I think metal drive cogs and oil would be a great mix. Passing some heat away to the body, allowing for big amps and hopefully be quiet due to the oil so you cant hear people whinging about it,,,I mean hear the wizz noise lol
Has anyone decided if these oils degrade the coil lamination stuff yet?
spending hours trying to seal a hub to fill up and then always leak all over the place in three weeks ruining brakes and getting oily tires seems impractical. So I would like to explore less oil volume and moving the heat away remotely.
Its impractical for the everyday user and even pointless maybe. But if someone feels the need to stuff 40a into a mac up heffing huge hills and has all the money and time to spare it might be a laugh to try.
It doesnt sound too hard to weave some small piping through the spokes to me so shouldnt be any harder to do than previous attempts. Im thinking down the hot rod route not the commute.
Has yours not leaked then? How did you vent it? at what oil volume? Cheers Dan
Its impractical for the everyday user and even pointless maybe. But if someone feels the need to stuff 40a into a mac up heffing huge hills and has all the money and time to spare it might be a laugh to try.
It doesnt sound too hard to weave some small piping through the spokes to me so shouldnt be any harder to do than previous attempts. Im thinking down the hot rod route not the commute.
Has yours not leaked then? How did you vent it? at what oil volume? Cheers Dan
Similar threads
