PAS, cruises, speed switches and all that

[Arbol]

I have been searching for information in this forum about PAS, control cruise, speed switches and all that, and there is a wealth of information. Too much. And many statements are apparently contradicting among themselves, or look too old and probably not applying now at 100%.

For this reason I open this thread.

The question is very basic, but here it is:

European regulations require a motor can only work if the biker pedals. That is fine with me.

Usual implementations of that regulation, if I understand correctly, rely on PAS, which does exactly this: it measures if the biker is pedalling, and if he does, the motor may work. I believe there are several implementations (if biker is pedalling, PAS gives full power; but also if biker is pedalling, PAS gives some amount of power, not fully).

Maybe I am wrong, but I believe an accelerator that worked only if the biker is pedalling would also be legal. In fact, an accelerator would be an "analog" of the digital way of different intensity modes in a multi-mode PAS.

There is additionally the issue of cruise control. Is cruise control working as in cars? ie it tries to keep a constant speed unless the driver brakes? What happens when the biker pedals, the cruise control reduces motor intensity to keep a constant speed?

Finally, there is the issue of 25 km/h max speed for the motor. According to European regulations, the motor cannot help above 25 km/h (but if I pedal stronger, no problem).

To sum up:

I would like a multi-mode configuration with the following modes:

- PAS working (ie the PAS only allows the motor to work if I pedal, and additionally, the PAS selects the intensity of the motor support; no throttle), no throttle, 25 km/h speed max
- PAS working but only to control if I am pedalling or not; the intensity of the motor support is selected only by the throttle; 25 km/h speed max
- PAS working but only to control if I am pedalling or not; the intensity of the motor support is selected only by the throttle; no 25 km/h speed max
- PAS not working, throttle working, no 25 km/h speed max limit (maybe this mode is irrelevant, the 2nd and 3rd one are possibly more important to me)

And additionally, there should be some kind of cruise control.

Is this possible using PAS, switches, throttle ..? I know there is a product called Cycle Analyst which also performs many / all of these characteristics, and is greatly appreciated by the community. I also would be interested in that. I dimly remember having read the CA allows several modes.

Any ideas? Thanks.

 

[MadRhino]

You are going to make this complicated and most of your "modes" will be illegal in EU.
My advice is to build simple and reliable. I don't care much about being legal but people in EU and AUS seem to be, maybe because there is more control by the police. If I was in that situation, I would build a simple 2 mode system.

First: A legal mode PAS based on torque sensor, because that is the only way IMO to make legal power interesting to ride.

Second: An "off road" mode with throttle control and massive power. I guess there may be no power regulation on off road bikes, so this mode could be legal if implemented properly.

 

[teklektik]

I would like a multi-mode configuration with the following modes:

- PAS working (ie the PAS only allows the motor to work if I pedal, and additionally, the PAS selects the intensity of the motor support; no throttle), no throttle, 25 km/h speed max
- PAS working but only to control if I am pedalling or not; the intensity of the motor support is selected only by the throttle; 25 km/h speed max
- PAS working but only to control if I am pedalling or not; the intensity of the motor support is selected only by the throttle; no 25 km/h speed max
- PAS not working, throttle working, no 25 km/h speed max limit (maybe this mode is irrelevant, the 2nd and 3rd one are possibly more important to me)

And additionally, there should be some kind of cruise control.

Is this possible using PAS, switches, throttle ..? I know there is a product called Cycle Analyst which also performs many / all of these characteristics, and is greatly appreciated by the community. I also would be interested in that. I dimly remember having read the CA allows several modes.

This may be achievable by other means, but the CA V3 can provide the functionality you call out. It is, however, limited to three mode presets (collections of configuration parameters) so you would need to mix and match capabilities to get three presets that best serve your riding needs. Presets may be selected using the console or via a custom external switch.

A Guide is available here. It describes installation and the features you called out: simple PAS wheels, torque sensors (e.g. Thun bottom bracket), three position switches, level adjustment knobs, and autocruise. You might, for instance, add a simple PAS wheel to your bike that gives assist proportional to pedaling rpm with the overall assist level adjustable via a custom 'Assist Level' knob.

• Due to oversight, the Guide does not specifically call out PAS-autocruise interaction but the following paragraph will be added to the Autocruise discussion in the next release:
  
  • 2. PAS Interaction: If PAS mode is enabled, pedaling must be detected for auto-cruise to apply throttle control. When pedaling ceases, auto-cruise ceases to provide throttle but does not disengage – resuming pedaling will cause auto-cruise to resume the engaged throttle setting. Auto-cruise can be used as a means to provide an on-the-fly setting for PAS assist – see ' 7.8 Auto-Cruise as an Adjustable PAS Level'.

Although not yet accessible in the present product version, there are internal provisions to 'lock' various settings so that select menu settings do not appear or cannot be changed. These are certainly 'futures' features but indicate a development direction that may be of interest:

You'll notice too that there are a small number of settings which aren't settable via the setup menu. Some of them ... might be useful for people doing more OEM type customizations. For instance, the 13 bytes of InnrSetupMask lets you control whether individual items show up in the setup menu or not. So if you don't want the speed limit to be changeable, ... then it would skip over the MaxSpeed setting and jump right to the next item "Strt Speed". On a similar note, if you want to be able to change your speed limit but only up to a certain maximum, then that hard coded max can be set ... and any value that a user puts in via the setup menu will be clamped to this.

 

[d8veh]

Some controllers give you what you want directly. BMSBattery caught out some customers when they shipped a few KU63 controllers like that with "PAS start" written on the label. There was an extra wire on the PCB, that if cut, sent the controller into normal operation. I tried adding the wire to my normal KU63, but it didn't make it PAS start. The software must be different. I'm pretty sure Keyde use this system in some of their controllers:
http://www.keyde.com/?do=product&lang=en&event=list_4

To an extent, what your asking for is how a normal PAS works. Controllers use speed control, so each position of the throttle corresponds to a speed, not a power. If you get a controller with a LED or LCD, where you can set the level of PAS, the levels also relate to different speeds. The power algorithms in the controller are based on the difference between your actual speed and the speed set by the panel or throttle. Having said that some controllers are now switching over to "Torque simulation" where the power is limited/boosted in each PAS level.

So, to answer what I think is on your mind, you can just get a normal controller with LCD panel with 5 or 7 levels of PAS, and it'll do everything you want. You don't need a throttle with that system. If you can't have one that works without pedalling, there's no advantage in having one.

 

[Arbol]

Thanks. Do you know where can I find a big LED PAS with 5 or 7 levels? I have checked EM3EV / BMSBattery / Greenbikekit / elifebike and none have it (if I have checked properly). I saw one some time ago, from a small Spanish vendor (but only sold together with their package).

 

[d8veh]

Thanks. Do you know where can I find a big LED PAS with 5 or 7 levels? I have checked EM3EV / BMSBattery / Greenbikekit / elifebike and none have it (if I have checked properly). I saw one some time ago, from a small Spanish vendor (but only sold together with their package).

Conhismotor do them, but be aware that hey use a signal from the motor for the speed display, so if you have a geared motor, the speed shows zero when free-wheeling. Also, there's BMSBattery sine-wave controllers.

 

[Eskimo]

My advice is to build simple and reliable. I don't care much about being legal but people in EU and AUS seem to be, maybe because there is more control by the police.

It depends We here in the north don"t really care that much, partly because there so few of us that public or police awareness level is still around zero on this issue, and we are not very urban.
Out there down the road among the reindeers, who cares? Some southern countries and englishmen seem to take this more seriously, perhaps partly because police there pays more attention, and strongly crowded cities create more safety problems.
If we would have german fast pedelec law, then i would propably try to satisfy it"s requirements. It is reasonable enough even in our enviroment. Still love DD-drive though.
All that juridical stuff occasionally approaching byrocratical orgasm is still kinda interesting. You can spend a lifetime trying to wrap your brains around it all if you want to.
I think pure throttle is the best speed switch, but i don"t mock anyone who wants to do it that way, it"s just different ball game. Pedelecs and E-bikes.