Phasor Cycles/ Recumpence drive collaboration

[recumpence]

Hey Guys,

I wanted to let you know David from Phasor Cycles [www.phasorcycles.com] and I are collaborating on a project together. He is designing a new frame around my drive. I will supply the drive and he will supply the frame for a light weight, super high performance chassis kit. He and I will each have one for initial testing. I am sending him a drive for design purposes and he will send me the first production frame using my drive. He will be designing the frame with a spring loaded chain tensioner to eliminate the chain growth concerns.

This will take a little time considering the fact that I need to supply him with a drive system (4 to 6 weeks), then he will design the frame around the drive. So, I bet we are looking at 3 months or so. But, this should be a phenomenal setup once it is all finished.

Our products really seem to compliment each other well. We appeal to the same type of clientele and we are committed to the same end result (extremely high performance, compact, light weight goodness).

I will be sending him a 5 turn 3220 drive (14,000 watt peak, 6,000 watt continuous) fan cooled system to start with...... Eventually he will be running a twin 3220 system. Should be NUTS!

I will keep you all posted!

Matt

 

[beast775]

This is exciting news,cant wait to see the end product!

 

[snellemin]

Sounds cool! Kinda a long wait, but bet it will be badass once the prototype is running.

 

[joshseitz]

Sounds worthy of a Kickstarter campaign. I'd invest!

 

[litespeed]

Sounds pretty awesome.

 

[macribs]

Subscribed. Excited to see the end result. Sure it will be light_n_(ing) fast

 

[mattrb]

Wtf this is golden.

 

[macribs]

I will be sending him a 5 turn 3220 drive (14,000 watt peak, 6,000 watt continuous) fan cooled system to start with...... Eventually he will be running a twin 3220 system. Should be NUTS!

So a single 3220 motor will deliver 6.000 watt continuous and 14.000 w peak. And the final model will run twice that?
Is my math off here or are we talking 37.5 HP peak power and 16 HP continuous power from twin 3220 setup? We are entering motorcycle territory.
Imagine all that in a light weight frame tailor made for that specific motor setup. I am sure this will be the most wicked e-bike ever made.
So lets hope the final price tab will be within reach, and I am sure sales will be off the charts.

 

[recumpence]

That is correct. Twin motors (if properly built and setup) are indeed capable of such power.

Honestly, harnessing that much power is almost impossible other than for massive power wheelies. But, also, if you have a huge surplus of power, the system will be more reliable at lower power levels than a system that has a lower peak power and is run at that peak power more frequently and for longer durations.

Matt

 

[macribs]

That is correct. Twin motors (if properly built and setup) are indeed capable of such power.

Honestly, harnessing that much power is almost impossible other than for massive power wheelies. But, also, if you have a huge surplus of power, the system will be more reliable at lower power levels than a system that has a lower peak power and is run at that peak power more frequently and for longer durations.

Matt

Too much power is rarely a problem
And to feel the thrill of acceleration or doing power wheelies one would tap into a large part of that peak power. As you say that will be in short bursts.
What is the weight of your Twin motor setup?

 

[dustyearlobe]

Will you be running through the chainring or twin chains,im going to be running a 120/90 through the chain ring at around 6000w ,see what happens.The twin cyclone build was 3200w ,it would push 50mph with the custom built gear box (not so much noise ) just need to get there a bit quicker,going to wrap the 120/90 up in one of these ,should change the black for blue get a uk theme goingThe 120/90 i have is red and flat black ,could go for this color sceem and call it the bogg runner vampia ,sounds cool.
Will you be incl the belt reduction?nice and quiet
Gary

 

[recumpence]

It will be my standard drive unit that is belt drive from the motor to the jackshaft and chain to the rear wheel on the left side.

This much power cannot be run through the stock pedal chain and cassette. They would never survive.

Matt

 

[yawstick]

The 120/90 i have is red and flat black

Interesting looking bike... where is this from?

 

[dustyearlobe]

motor to the jackshaft and chain to the rear wheel

Matt

Thats what we did with the other matts build ,it worked to the point of the motor packed up, other than that not much info to share on that one,lostrack has one of your single set ups ,matt has it sitting in his shed with a dead cycle analyst ,that thing if to be compared to was an animal ,low end power controllable ? i dont think it was ?.thats why im trying the chain ring ,keep control on tecnical stuff and still have power for the bits that want the beans.

The 120/90 i have is red and flat black

Interesting looking bike... where is this from?

Its a new frame i put together ,going to make a few then they will be up for sale ,rides nice .

 

[johnrobholmes]

Matt, this project is worthy of some time invested to turn astro motors sensored to open up controller options. With the rear fan it wouldn't be as easy. I have a few Astros here to pull an ideal sensor positions from. Any chance you have a fan motor I could design around?

 

[macribs]

Any chanced we get a little sneak-preview of the frame design, motor/reduction or anything else even if just rough sketches, just to hold us for now? I am sure many more with me would love to get a little teaser of what is gonna be the first light weight mid motored frame kit. Even if it is early stages, and design, fittings and end result may vary several times before the final wrap I would love to see more about this. Phasor and Recumpnce twin motor is i fantastic match. And you have both proven your track record over time. So a thread like this we take very seriously.

Keep us in the loop as soon as possible.

 

[recumpence]

The system I am sending for this project is a high strength new design based on my V4 system with some key changes.

I highly doubt two motors would be needed (or even really useable) on a bike like this without being ridden by an extremely experienced dirt bike rider. One high KV motor (12,000 rpm or higher) would be more than enough. Of course, twin motors would be cool for the "My bike is faster than your bike" confrontations.

Matt

 

[macribs]

Oh you never know when you gonna need that extra power.
Ask anyone that ever driven a tuned up pony car, a japps with a big turbo or an R motorcycle.
Extra power it is both fun and necessary. If not for nothing else then to write your your name on the tarmac with your smoking rear tire.

 

[rscamp]

Matt, this project is worthy of some time invested to turn astro motors sensored to open up controller options. With the rear fan it wouldn't be as easy. I have a few Astros here to pull an ideal sensor positions from. Any chance you have a fan motor I could design around?

Yes, yes, yes....

 

[Whiplash]

I agree, the place you will be able to use the power will be off road. When you don't have complete traction, you replace it with flying debris in the equal and OPPOSITE direction lol! If the low speed in these bikes gets tamed. I think you will have QUITE the winning combo!

 

[panurge]

Hi Matt
I'm Glad to finally see a solid project for a Full suspended powered by your drives.
I'm sure at the Phasor they will make a clean and cool bike around the Astro and your Improved V4.
I can well figure out the fun with the future Phasor/Recumpence!

I'm surprised that many members here, looking for high power rates on FS, still don't really consider your Drives, Matt, among the best options.
I think that's because of the small amount of FS frames that would mount your drives with a straight power chain along all the susp. travel, and an acceptable solution to avoid or cope the chain growth, without hard mods tool access and skills. And that's why, some full suspension builds with Astros, here on ES, have been not so lucky.

I recon that for true trial duties (but I mean TRUE TRIAL) it is not still satisfying, that's the only limit I can see.

Of course a sensored setup should give a better handling and response and smooth starts....and sure, for a production bike it would be even better to offer a standard e-vehicle's Controller rather than the tiny RC ones....However, to leave the Magic alchemy of your drives+Astros+Castle ESCs, seems also hard to digest to me :wink: .......I'm pretty happy right now with the idling option and the Amp mode on the CA, it works very responsive and with less or no surges even at the lowers or doing open/close throttle actions (thanks to mdd0127 advice).
A faster and cooled 3220 could give even 50% more continuous power than my standard 4t, and way higher peaks, I guess....2 astros on something about 35kg and 2 wheels is crazy and pretty unusable power IMO....

I stay tuned to see progresses on that.... 8)

 

[rodgah]

waiting waiting waiting......

If I could show a preference, (I am pretty sure you would be thinking along the same lines Matt) don't make these with the huge box section akin to the hub phasor frames. I would much rather see a frame that is still made of tubes, with a battery/electrics box bolted within it. Reason....this box could be whatever size you want, I personally never ride for more than 20kms range, so a small box with 2 8AH 6s packs would be all I need.

The box could be made of vacuum formed pvc in halves and glued together, strong yet isolated from shorts etc.

Good luck to you guys, I have had 3d help and tried myself to 3d model a frame but always come up with more problems than answers.....though I wanted to run the chain line through the swing arm pivot for obvious reasons. In the end it always came out too wide for standard mtb parts or too complex to easily make in a quantity >1.

As for the sensorless vs sensored debate I am resting on the side of Matts chosen path.....why?....because it works, no frills, small light form factor, no stuffing around, you learn to control the brutal power with your wrist not with software.

Rodger

 

[johnrobholmes]

A sensored motor can always be run sensorless :wink:

 

[macribs]

If one is to compile a list of pro/cons of sensored and sensorless how would that even go?
I can only see benefits from adding sensors to a motor, as said above feel free to use the sensors or not. That is your choice.
Hall sensors are cheap, readily available and tough SOB's and are long lived. If they die that are most likely from heat. It seems the only one that struggle a bit with longevity of hall sensors are e-bikers. Time for more efficient heat removal and to add a thermal sensor as well?

What would be great reasons not to use Hall sensors, or in what situation would you pass on using the halls?

 

[recumpence]

I have the motor and 95% of the drive system parts in stock for this project at this point.

I am sending a redesigned drive unit and a wickedly fast motor.

The project is gaining some traction!

Matt