Phat Bike Build

[jkbrigman]

This is a fantastic description - thanks teklektik!

 

[jkbrigman]

Well....tonight I had to run an errand, a very short-distance trip into the local town from my house. It was about 3 miles each way.

It was late when I headed out. Darkness had already fallen and I remember seeing 9pm on the clock when I left. But I decided it was such a beautiful night, that I would take the Phat Bike. I rode over to town with no problem. But when I was ready to head back home, I realized I wanted to go a little faster because it was now 10pm and I hated to be out on the road in the dark.

I decided to change my amp-limit setting on the CA - 6 miles round-trip was barely long enough to be a good test ride, so I wasn't afraid of running out of juice. So I dialed up the amp-limit from 10 amps to.... 40 amps!

Below, see three tiny snapshots from the CA: Distance, Max/Avg Speed/Time, and Watt-Hrs and Wh/Mi:

My max speed is 42.2MPH, and that's an honest 42MPH: I was doing mostly 40 mph for about a 2 mile stretch of road. I actually broke a 35mph speed limit by 8 miles per hour in front of a church! It only took me 8 minutes to cover 3 miles, or less than 3 minutes per mile, and that includes a stop light, a U-turn and the slow 9mph cruise down my rocky dirt road into the subdivision. So my highway time was actually much shorter than the 8 minutes shown...

The best thing? The motor, controller and batteries were just BARELY warm when I got home!

(And by the way, the massive 800 lumen headlight worked beautifully: I had no problem at all seeing very well ahead of me at 40mph.)

I've ridden amp-limited for so long, I'd forgotten that I could dial UP the amp-limit and enjoy some massive speed. NOW I remember why we do big, direct drive motors! So if we want to, we can dump TONS of power into them and haul ass!

More testing at high amp limiting to come....

JKB

 

[jkbrigman]

Well, it's been about 1 1/2 years since I brought home the shiny new Specialized to convert. I thought I'd summarize some of the key sound bites from the build for your consumption. Anyone wanting any elaboration about the factoids, give me a holler and I'll write more:

What Motor, Controller and Battery?
Crystalyte HS3540, ebikes.ca 6FET, 12S3P Hobby King LiPo (about 1200 Watt-Hrs total)

What things have you added to the stock bicycle besides the electric components?
German SKS fenders, Performance Bike "TransIt" brand rear rack, TransIt pannier, 800 lumen headlight, bike tail light, scooter windshield. About $230

What things have you changed out on the bike?
11t-32T Freewheel, VueltaUSA 53T Crankset, Swedish double-kickstand, Schwalbe Marathon tires, flat handlebars. About $270 total cost.

What's the summary of bike performance?
Safe Range Per Charge: About 34 miles
"Reserve" range: About 4-6 miles
Average Speed: About 25-26mph (10 amps)
Average Wh/Mi: About 21Wh/mile typical, with significant pedaling.
Peak Speed: About 33mph (10 amps)
Time for each commute leg: About 1 hour, 15 minutes)

So the Phat Bike has met the following design criteria:
I can reliably commute 32 miles each way to work at a speed which makes the commute time only about 20 minutes longer than if I'd taken a car.

What Next?
1) Install new controller to anticipate going to 24s.
2) Make a battery box.
3) Go to 24S
4) Install two 50v onboard chargers, making the bike easier and faster to recharge.
5) Add DC-DC converters to power 12VDC auto-compatible LED lights.

Why monkey with the battery when the bike already does a great job?
- More range and slightly more speed, maybe another 2mph and another 5-10 miles.
- Split the pack into two 12S sub-packs for ease of charging and compatibility with 50V systems
- Be able to charge the bike easier and faster
- Be able to use 60v-to-12v DC-DC converters, which are cheap and easy to find. Higher voltage converters are not cheap nor easy to find.

 

[jkbrigman]

Sunday, Sept. 21, I ran a 90 mile round trip local "cross country" from my home to the town of Rocky Mount, NC. Here's my Google+ link:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/103306472219696118223/posts

On this XC I experimented with:
- Long range riding. Got 45 miles on the outbound leg with only 1200 WH of battery
- Current limiting. I let my Crystalyte have only 5 amps of current and got 13Wh/mile on outbound leg
- Opportunity Charging - what a blast!
- Pushing against headwinds - I learned a few things about power strategy!
- Making roughly 100 miles in a day, a microscopic sample of what Troy did for almost a MONTH!

On the outbound leg, I managed a skimpy 13Wh/mile averaging 25mph and making 30mph at times. 350 watts! It was like pedaling with PAS, because I pedaled the entire way and it wasn't faux pedaling either. ON the return leg, I had to stop and recharge because of the headwind. I dialed up the power and still the average WH/mile was 18 Wh/mile.

The trip gave me a laundry list of things to improve on my bike, which I'm going to do, then try a LONGER XC all in a day.

 

[itsmedc65]

@jkb wrote
- the scooter windshield ROCKS. Needs some adjustment but it's effective and well worth installing on the ebike. Noticeably improves comfort and efficiency.
- the "tailbox" seems to have helped, but I can't be sure.

Do you have pics with the tailbox / windshield combo?

Any numbers comparing the same route, tires/pressures, and weather conditions with the combo to not having them?

Also, any info on where you sourced the windshield and / or tailbox?

 

[jkbrigman]

@jkb wrote
- the scooter windshield ROCKS. Needs some adjustment but it's effective and well worth installing on the ebike. Noticeably improves comfort and efficiency.
- the "tailbox" seems to have helped, but I can't be sure.

Do you have pics with the tailbox / windshield combo?
Any numbers comparing the same route, tires/pressures, and weather conditions with the combo to not having them?
Also, any info on where you sourced the windshield and / or tailbox?

Hi itsmedc65;

I have a pic of the windshield: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=45993&start=125#p853495 but nothing of both at one time. I'll snap a pic and post it in the thread.

I did a comparison ride on my normal commute with the windshield, you can see it here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=45993&start=125#p866033

My commute is 32 miles each way, 64 miles total. I run 70PSI in my Schwalbe Marathons and top them off every time I ride. The cumulative effect of the windshield on that commute was very pronounced and easy to see because I have a predominant west-to-east headwind going into the office. I don't have weather conditions to report because I am not testing the configuration. The results were so good I did only a couple test rides and was convinced.

Windshield, I got off ebay from this guy:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Scooter-Moped-Windshield-including-a-Universal-Handle-Bar-Clamp-Mount-Kit-18-/121112394386?pt=Other_Vehicle_Parts&hash=item1c32dc7a92&vxp=mtr
One of the mounting brackets has broken, so I need to buy a new pair of only the brackets. Lesson is to be careful about how tight you make it, and use blue loctite.

Here's the Sterilite Oval-shaped "Show Off" tote:
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Sterilite-Oval-ShowOff-Storage-Containers-Set-of-6/13220035

 

[itsmedc65]

Thanks jkb. The link to the ebay seller of the fairing is the best deal I've seen on anything like that. I'm looking at some aero options for my semi-recumbent LWB and, while there are some really nice options ($$$$), they far exceed my budget.
How difficult do you think it would be to mount that windshield on a set of RANS chopper style bars? See the review link of the Aerobic Cruiser in my sig for a picture.

Any thoughts on going with a full aero treatment on your phat bike like the pedal bike guy in the video that veloman posted back on page 2?
Youtube link to upright pedal bike with full aero coroplast body and I believe a fiberglass nosecone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akTv5ZwTBSM&

Found some info on the builder/rider of the body work bike for his previous version and found one comment in particular interesting.
https://plus.google.com/photos/+Wil.../+WilliamHamilton1/albums/5827078590886586481
I'VE ADDED A VERTICAL "STABILIZER" OVER THE REAR WHEEL, WHICH I THOUGHT I COULD SKIP BUT IT'S A BIT TWITCHY WITHOUT.

 

[jkbrigman]

Thanks jkb. The link to the ebay seller of the fairing is the best deal I've seen on anything like that. I'm looking at some aero options for my semi-recumbent LWB and, while there are some really nice options ($$$$), they far exceed my budget.
How difficult do you think it would be to mount that windshield on a set of RANS chopper style bars? See the review link of the Aerobic Cruiser in my sig for a picture.

I checked out your thread ahead of time - beautiful recumbent, I especially like the suspension swingarm on it! I searched ebay but there are no more to be had - looks like you got a great limited-time deal on your LWB recumbent!

I think the windshield would mount just fine on the handlebars. I don't think it will be as good as a full-size recumbent fairing, but it will be better than nothing. There are longer scooter windshields out there than I bought, so a longer one should help more.

Any thoughts on going with a full aero treatment on your phat bike like the pedal bike guy in the video that veloman posted back on page 2?
Youtube link to upright pedal bike with full aero coroplast body and I believe a fiberglass nosecone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akTv5ZwTBSM&

I'm going to add an actual fairing under the windshield, attaching the windshield to it and attaching the lower part of the fairing to the fork crown up front. Nothing else, though. The bike is too heavy for my liking as it sits, so I'm loathe to add any more weight to it. I've been contemplating ways to lower the weight of the bike, but there's limits to what you can do with it. It is a hybrid "cruiser" after all....

 

[jkbrigman]

I've been using the Phat Bike for once-weekly commuting to work. The positive impact to our weekly gas cost or vehicle maintenance has been undeniable. If I can use the Phat Bike for one commute trip plus a couple grocery trips or errands, I can end the week with 1/2 a tank instead of 1/8th a tank. If the Prius needs to go in for maintenance, I can use the bike to leave the car at the shop then go pick it up later, without having to use a second gas-guzzling vehicle (our F150).

One of the windshield brackets broke on one of the commutes, and suddenly I realized how important the windshield had become for performance and range. The windshield adds 1-2mpg at the same, or less, power input.

About 80% of my commutes, I ride westbound against an eastbound headwind (is that redundant? ). I absolutely cannot give up the benefit of the windshield. (See data on this earlier in the thread....)

About two weeks ago, one of the brackets finally disintegrated. I held the windshield hardware with my left hand and was able to finish the trip. Started looking for nicer brackets to replace the pot-metal brackets that came with the windshield.

Quick Tip: Don't go to a motorcycle shop looking for handlebar brackets. I went to two motorcycle shops and a scooter shop and they all looked at me like I had two heads. No motorcycle shops stock "generic parts" any more: their parts departments carry manufacturer-specific parts, which are made as "custom" as possible for maximum profit.

I ended up mail-ordering brackets from a company called "SlipStream" via an online vendor named "LeatherUP.com":
http://www.leatherup.com/p/SlipStreamer-Cruiser-Windshield-Hardware/Slip-Streamer-7/8-in.-Handlebar-Clamp-Hardware-Kit/177977.html

These are very nice, CNC'ed and black alodined. My wife got the package when it arrived, she called me and asked, in a very cautious voice, "What are you ordering from a company called LeatherUP?...do we need to talk?"

I explained the package and invited her to open it. She was relieved, but deferred opening it and left it for me.

Got home, broke out the brackets and was very, very pleased for the $22-some US dollar cost of the brackets. Competing vendors were double-that for the price of the product before shipping...

 

[jkbrigman]

Well, I have every intention of going to 24s. (this is why the new Lyen controller) However, recent circumstances (loss of a one cell in THREE LIPO BRICKS) has forced me to run at 50v for awhile.

And guess what...it's not too bad. The bike can reach 32mph if allowed enough amps to keep the Crystalyte spinning. Losing 1/3rd off the size of the battery was a nice cut in the weight and it simplifies interconnection.

Most importantly, I've experienced first-hand what some have said: that average speed does not vary as dramatically with max speed over a given distance, but varies very dramatically with min speed. The 50v configuration, with more allowed current, climbs hills better. For the moderately hilly terrain in my area, min speeds are increased and my average speed remains the same at 12S as when I was riding at 18S!

There's a lot of "pros" for going 50v and not too many "cons". Doing some testing now to see how it works out. I might land at 50v, dunno just yet. I'll update this message in the future with the results...

 

[Alan B]

18S was a bit fast for commuting with my Cromotor and Lyen 24 FET controller, but with a Sabvoton sine wave controller (and no field weakening) it is just about right, the top speeds having dropped about 10mph. The smooth quiet operation and torque control is really nice. The jerky acceleration is fun, but is hard on equipment (including the controller), and wastes energy.

 

[jkbrigman]

18S was a bit fast for commuting with my Cromotor and Lyen 24 FET controller, but with a Sabvoton sine wave controller (and no field weakening) it is just about right, the top speeds having dropped about 10mph. The smooth quiet operation and torque control is really nice. The jerky acceleration is fun, but is hard on equipment (including the controller), and wastes energy.

(my boldface/italics)

Alan, I've been fearful of that exact thing, that the power spikes waste energy. I see spikes happen when current jumps up and the CA goes to limit it. No real contribution to motive force, but I'm afraid it just makes heat.

So, wait: You aren't going to drop to 12S if the Sabvoton has smoothed out and better controlled the Cromotor, right?

 

[Alan B]

The torque growth from increasing motor current doesn't go to zero as the current increases, but it does "knee over" and have a reduction in the rate of torque growth per amp. So you want to operate below the knee above which efficiency falls off. Hitting a motor with amazing current peaks makes some extra heat, but it does make extra torque. Of course that might be the torque that twists the axle, spreads the dropouts, etc.

Trying 12S (down from 18S) is an interesting idea, it would drop top speed to about 22 (without field weakening). I'd prefer not to use field weakening as it is less efficient, so 12S is probably a bit slow for this wheel and tire size, though it would improve efficiency slightly. But it would leave very little margin for climbing steep hills and acceleration at 20 would be very sluggish. Perhaps a good rule of thumb is to operate at about 2/3 the max speed. Leave a bit above normal for loads and hills and acceleration, but a higher ratio of battery voltage to motor voltage reduces the efficiency of the DC-DC conversion process a little, and using higher voltage FETs is not a win if over 100V FETs.

Remember that the sine waves have less power for the same peak voltage, so we've given up about 15% of the speed from trapezoidal.

 

[tomjasz]

nice work. yeah the 11 tooth gears with 7 or 8 speed are non existant in the normal bike world. glad you got 35mph thats great, how mch power consumption?

Off the shelf at the local LBS yesterday. After reading a dozen times here they were rare, I was shacked and thrilled!

 

[tomjasz]

I ended up mail-ordering brackets from a company called "SlipStream" via an online vendor named "LeatherUP.com":
http://www.leatherup.com/p/SlipStreamer-Cruiser-Windshield-Hardware/Slip-Streamer-7/8-in.-Handlebar-Clamp-Hardware-Kit/177977.html

These are very nice, CNC'ed and black alodined. My wife got the package when it arrived, she called me and asked, in a very cautious voice, "What are you ordering from a company called LeatherUP?...do we need to talk?"

I explained the package and invited her to open it. She was relieved, but deferred opening it and left it for me.

Got home, broke out the brackets and was very, very pleased for the $22-some US dollar cost of the brackets. Competing vendors were double-that for the price of the product before shipping...

Thanks for the lead. I like them. I'm also amazed that the quality of the eBay windscreen is every bit as good as the pricey Vespa screens. The hard ware is a little chinsy but I think I can adapt some pieces from a trashed fly screen to use them for a better set of screen face hardware. I reversed the "Slipstream" hardware to get the screen a bit lower and have almost decided where the screen work best for me. I've move it inward by quite a bit and it seems ok but need to ride a bit more first. I'm envious that your bike came with shocks and that the headset would allow for replacement. I think I'm screwed with 1 1/8" threaded headset and a 255mm head tube (273 with races in place). I guess changing to unthreaded is possible but by the time that's done it's more than the cost of the raw bike new for just OK gear. But I'm gonna post it and see if there are other options. I saw a springer fork I liked. Uber dork, but no fit!

 

[jkbrigman]

Someone had asked for a pic of the Phat Bike with the "tailbox" installed. Here it is, in all it's glory....the ends of that small tote are rounded off, very nice shape for a tailbox.

 

[veloman]

The best place to displace area behind you is directly behind your saddle - your butt. Your tote is fine there, since you use it to carry things. But if you really want to gain aero advantage, make a tailbox to put on top of it.

I like the fountain drink cup holder... :lol:

 

[tomjasz]

Someone had asked for a pic of the Phat Bike with the "tailbox" installed. Here it is, in all it's glory....the ends of that small tote are rounded off, very nice shape for a tailbox.

interesting mount on the windscreen. Have you run it higher? Thats near 6" lower than mine.

 

[Alan B]

It looks like the headlight fires through the windscreen. How does that work out?

 

[jkbrigman]

Someone had asked for a pic of the Phat Bike with the "tailbox" installed. Here it is, in all it's glory....the ends of that small tote are rounded off, very nice shape for a tailbox.

interesting mount on the windscreen. Have you run it higher? Thats near 6" lower than mine.

Tom - I have run it higher, much higher. Gave me better "face shielding" but I don't like looking through the windscreen - it seems to disorient me.

It looks like the headlight fires through the windscreen. How does that work out?

Alan - the headlight dangles down below the windscreen. The windscreen has a groove cut in the bottom of it for an extremely large headlight and mine shines through that void.

 

[tomjasz]

Tom - I have run it higher, much higher. Gave me better "face shielding" but I don't like looking through the windscreen - it seems to disorient me.

Must be a function of bike geometry. I look over the screen with it set much higher.

 

[jkbrigman]

Well, I have every intention of going to 24s. (this is why the new Lyen controller) However, recent circumstances (loss of a one cell in THREE LIPO BRICKS) has forced me to run at 50v for awhile.

And guess what...it's not too bad. The bike can reach 32mph if allowed enough amps to keep the Crystalyte spinning. Losing 1/3rd off the size of the battery was a nice cut in the weight and it simplifies interconnection.
...
There's a lot of "pros" for going 50v and not too many "cons". Doing some testing now to see how it works out. I might land at 50v, dunno just yet. I'll update this message in the future with the results...

Thought I'd provide an update, since it's been a long while. Spring has sprung here in the southeast and we've very suddenly gone from winter deep freeze (we had BITTER cold weather this winter) to warm spring days. Today, it's sunny with a high in the 70's.

I'm going to give 50v a try for a few commutes, see how it works out. But that's taking some work: I have to reconfigure the battery for 12S4P or 12S5P, depending on how many packs I can fix. I'm in the middle of replacing the bad cells right now.

Back last July, I got two 48V Meanwell LED supplies seeking to go to 24S/98v. But I've been riding at 50v now for several months (during the winter, whenever weather would allow) and turns out, I get good enough speed out of 12S that I'm going to try it for awhile.

Below, you can see the 48v Meanwell LED supply next to a box of tissues for size comparison. (SORRY, I'll get a banana next time.... ) It's tweakable up to about 52v. Lordy they are built well and totally silent. I can't wait to bulk charge with this bad boy!

I don't know if any of you have kept up with the "Silent Ninja Charging" thread ( http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=52529 ) but the Meanwell LED supplies can ninja the HELL out of charging an ebike!

 

[neptronix]

Nice ^_^

 

[tomjasz]

JK, if you are so motivated a picture of how you charge using the Meanwell would help this one understand how they are used.

I like silent! The new Apple compatible hearing aids make EVERYTHING loud!

Always a pleasure to read a post form you!

TD

 

[Alan B]

Here's how I use them. There are many ways, this one is simple and doesn't require diodes.

I have three of the 24V 320W Meanwell LED supplies. I set them all for 25.0V and 12.0A (using a separate, accurate meter). Each of them feeds a separate 6S bank of my 18S battery via an ebae volt/amp/amp-hour meter and a 6 pin plug made from PowerPole 30A pins that dovetail together. After the batteries reach full charge the current drops of to about 60mA (on my 32 amp hour pack), and I unplug them. They don't shut completely off, but the current flow essentially ceases when the batteries are full. A circuit to turn them off is on my list but I have not built one yet.