Qulbix Q76R Frame Kits & Complete Bikes PRE-ORDER

Put the stickers on one side of the Q76R. Didn't put the front sticker on.

I'm very happy with the looks of the bike with the yellow stickers. I wanted the yellow / white stickers but got all yellow as I believe I wasn't clear enough with the color.
I originally wanted the white where it says QULBIX, but I think I like the all yellow and will keep this. Has a cleaner look. I actually have the same front wheel built in Black and will swap over to that.

To me my build feels like I went and bought a complete electric bike in a show room. Doesn't have that feel that I pieced together a Frankenstein bike. The 18650 single pack, wire routing through the rear, everything is very neat clean. Qulbix made lots of upgrades from the Raptor 165 to simplify wiring.

Other things I like compared to the 165 is you can remove the seat without removing the battery pack. You can also access the shock mount bolts without removing the motorcycle seat when comparing it to the raptor 165.

If anyone is wondering what that wire is out the top, that is a temporary temp probe wire where I can check the battery temps so I know how hot my pack is getting. Adaptto really needs to add a battery temp probe to their controllers.











 
Wow...very nice work, offroader. Very neat looking. I am amazed how neatly you managed to pack such a huge battery pack in the frame. Hat's off!
 
Offroader congratulations for the nice job!

I want to tell you that from my experience if you draw the 60% of the nominal current of those Panasonic Sanyo cells, they are not going to last for more than 5-6 months (they will sag a lot). I've builded last year a smaller scale battery pack using Panasonic cells and after 5 - 6 months the pack was giving me poor performance. So finally I gave it as a gift to my nephew that has an ebike with a small 350w motor with maximum peak power 600w.

after my disappointment I've done a big research and I've found that other type of battery cells are better and they last for 5 years. They don't have the power density that 18650 cells give you but I abuse them every day without problems.
 
icherouveim said:
after my disappointment I've done a big research and I've found that other type of battery cells are better and they last for 5 years. They don't have the power density that 18650 cells give you but I abuse them every day without problems.
Click to expand...

I am about to purchase new cells for my battery pack. What cells would you recommend?
 
I will tell you the whole story. I was watching this video.

[youtube]https://youtu.be/GcggKY9l7m8[/youtube]

For me the ready to go packs from HPC are really expensive so I had to find a good factory.

Finally I've bought from http://www.szwestart.com/ProductList.asp the 20AH 10C NCM Cells.
I draw only 70A but I suggested them to a Friend of mine that he draws about 150A and the battery pack after 6 months is like new. The seller lady is very helpful and their prices are very good even when you pay extra at the custom plus DHL cost. Also it's very easy to build the battery pack, it took me only 2 hours. For example you can add 16 cells 30AH each into the Q76r and you will have a 1776kw battery pack not so bad and if you have the new max e you can draw 150-160 A without any problem.
9,5mm is the width of every 30AH so multiple 8 it's exactly 76mm!
If you the 140mm frame you can add much more cells.
If you want I can send you photos.

Ioannis
 
https://m.facebook.com/szwestart/

this is their Facebook page. Many companies buy these cells
to build sport powerful cars. Take a look :)
 
icherouveim said:
Offroader congratulations for the nice job!

I want to tell you that from my experience if you draw the 60% of the nominal current of those Panasonic Sanyo cells, they are not going to last for more than 5-6 months (they will sag a lot). I've builded last year a smaller scale battery pack using Panasonic cells and after 5 - 6 months the pack was giving me poor performance. So finally I gave it as a gift to my nephew that has an ebike with a small 350w motor with maximum peak power 600w.

after my disappointment I've done a big research and I've found that other type of battery cells are better and they last for 5 years. They don't have the power density that 18650 cells give you but I abuse them every day without problems.
Click to expand...


Seems you started out with a pack that to small to meet your needs? If you had added more cells in p you probably would not encounter problems.
Also there are high discharge cells like the 30Q now.

Pouches are prone to swell after abuse or at least those from hobbyking, have you compressed them in any way? Would be nice to see picks of your pack.
What price did you get on those pouches?
 
icherouveim said:
Offroader congratulations for the nice job!

I want to tell you that from my experience if you draw the 60% of the nominal current of those Panasonic Sanyo cells, they are not going to last for more than 5-6 months (they will sag a lot). I've builded last year a smaller scale battery pack using Panasonic cells and after 5 - 6 months the pack was giving me poor performance. So finally I gave it as a gift to my nephew that has an ebike with a small 350w motor with maximum peak power 600w.

after my disappointment I've done a big research and I've found that other type of battery cells are better and they last for 5 years. They don't have the power density that 18650 cells give you but I abuse them every day without problems.
Click to expand...

I am also worried about how long they will last. I bet you may have used the panasonic NCR18650B? Someone said those cells have issues and lose a lot of capacity very quickly. I don't know what will happen with the Sanyo cells I am using. I should cycle a single cell to get an idea about how long it will last.

I am only drawing a max of about 7 amps per cell peak, and the cells rated at 10 amp continuous, so I am not pushing them to the maximum.
 
allinv said:
That bike is just too f'n cool!
Be proud, as I'm sure you are!
Question: what is the total weight?
Thanks!
Click to expand...

Bike is about 115 lbs. Battery is very large at 31 lbs, most won't use such a large battery, so mine will be on the heavy side.
 
macribs. My battery pack was well designed the nominal maximum current of it was 40,8A
and my controller was drawing only 25A. Even about this the pack started to give poor performance
after 5-6 months. 18650 cells are good only when you really need high energy density cells but if
you want something reliable that lasts for long and not very expensive then the NCM Cells
is the way to go.

I've bought them 1.08 usd / ah. Very good price. Plus shipping cost and taxes.
If you check the video I sent HPC sells only NMC battery cells.
And into WESTART facebook website there are many people that have tested them
with great results. I can send you photos tomorrow.
 
You may have a point about the batteries.

I just built my 18650 pack and am surprised just how hot it is getting. After my ride I plugged into my battery temp probe and was surprised to see temps around 120F (49C). It might have been higher than that during peak riding. I do believe that the cells get hotter towards the end of the discharge, so it may not have been that hot the whole time.

However, the temp falls very quickly, it will go from 120F (49C) to 90F (32C) in like a minute or two. I need to get something so that I can monitor temps while I ride.

If this pack craps out with heat then I'll surely take this into consideration during future pack builds.

From 4.1 volts to 3.34 volts, my Max-E reported 2500 watt hours without regen or 2636 with regen. I get my predicted 45 mile (72 Kilometer) range at 60 W/hour mile or 38 W/hour kilometer. Range is very good, although I was hoping for a bit more from a 3.3 KW pack. Normally I won't be using that much range.


I assume from 4.1 to 3.34 is about 75% capacity.

 
How many Ps did you have with B cells?
They are not good for bike use, more like for laptop and thats about it.
They are rated for about 6 Amps maximum for cont. current This means that you should not use them above 4Amps if you need long life.
And you need about 6p in this case for a 25A controller. But still they are one of the worst cells for bike application.
And you need to buy from proper sources, many cells fakes!
 
Offroader, looks like your findings about temp is similar to mine, here is the comparison chart that I made. 30Q stays much cooler at 7A per cell.
7A is pretty much a limit for GA. At 10A they do get way to hot if you need them to survice a long time.
Also take a look at what happens at 3V, 30Q gives you same amount of energy as GA.
https://0bb0688e10cd626d9cdaa22df789bdf0250ef581.googledrive.com/host/0B1sNQs8gfn7iZWVYMm85eFotcnM/30QvsHE2vsGA.jpg


Your internal resistance is 0(mohm), looks like you did not have a constant ride while holding at least 10Amps for 10seconds. I think your drive style is a lot of short bursts on full throttle and then no throttle at all. Do it next time you ride. Would be interesting to see how high your pack resistance is.
 
Allex, I was wondering why I was reading 0 ohms battery resistance, I thought maybe the pack was so large and built so well it was reading 0 :lol: .

I'll try full throttle for a long time to see if it can read higher than 0.

I'm going to have to get a better temp gauge, one that I can leave on the bike. The readings were not reading accurately today and I wonder how accurate the gauge I'm using is.

I also can't see how I can peak at 55 C, and then fall so quickly and I don't notice the side covers getting that warm. When I stick my finger through a hole in the top of my frame and touch the side of the pack it doesn't feel hot just slightly warm.

Unless the very center of the pack is getting that much hotter then the edges.
 
Just wanted to add that I have been bashing the raptor 165 but it did have some advantages.

You can't beat the comfort of the raptor 165 motorcycle seat. It was like we say in America, like driving a Cadillac. It was very comfortable because it was wide and had a lot of padding. I could sit down over very hard bumps and it wouldn't hurt at all. The Q76R is not as padded, you also can sometimes feel the edges of the seat with the right hits. It is a good seat, but not like the Raptor 165 seat.

I remember reading a dirt bike article about the importance that riders should grip the frame with their legs for support. I notice that I can't do this with the Q76R, the frame is that narrow there is no way to grip the frame with your legs. I do notice that I don't have the stability when driving straight and fast over rough terrain when off roading. I definitely lose some stability and control because of this. Now I see the importance of squeezing the frame with your legs.

Because the raptor was so heavy in the center it wasn't a wheelie machine. The Q76R with losing close to 20 LBS (9kg) is much more a wheelie machine now, but isn't too bad. This is something all ebikes have to deal with, it was just that the raptor 165 was so heavy that it was much less of a problem.
 
Good morning Ebikers around the world!

Alex. My previous pack was 13s 6p anyway my nephew is happy now with it.

I think 18650 cells are not so reliable even when you use high current cells, as I remember you or another Alex builded in Russia last year a nice battery pack for a bomber by using high current LG cells and after 2-3 months 3 of the cells failed and you've loosed so much time to locate and replace the dead cells.

on the other hand by using big reliable (Nickel Manganese Cobalt) new technology 1p or 2p cells then it's easier to make the pack, easier to monitor and to repair it. (the only problem is to fit it into your frame :D ).
also it doesn't get hot! there are 5C and 10C nominal current cells (I've got the 10C).

I gave an example, 16 X 30AH NMC should fit into the Q76R qulbix and 40 X 25AH into 140mm frame.
With these new type of cells I get better top speed and acceleration. I discharge them up to 3V without overheating and I charge them up to 4.18V; even when the voltage is at 3.4V they give me a good punch.
I resent the youtube video, it explains about the less voltage sag the better acceleration and torque. Also they are rated to give you 20Ah but in reality they are 21.5Ah according Adaptto measurements.

I attach two pics. ( I don't use this BMS anymore, Adaptto BMS is connected, and there is blue plastic PVC bag that secure the cells).
I have them for 6 months now, I abuse them everyday when I go to work and they still give me exactly the same energy.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcggKY9l7m8[/youtube]

20151024_183353_small.jpg
20151024_191847_small.jpg
20160417_101818_small.jpg
20160417_101845_small.jpg
 
Offroader said:
Just wanted to add that I have been bashing the raptor 165 but it did have some advantages.

You can't beat the comfort of the raptor 165 motorcycle seat. It was like we say in America, like driving a Cadillac. It was very comfortable because it was wide and had a lot of padding. I could sit down over very hard bumps and it wouldn't hurt at all. The Q76R is not as padded, you also can sometimes feel the edges of the seat with the right hits. It is a good seat, but not like the Raptor 165 seat.

I remember reading a dirt bike article about the importance that riders should grip the frame with their legs for support. I notice that I can't do this with the Q76R, the frame is that narrow there is no way to grip the frame with your legs. I do notice that I don't have the stability when driving straight and fast over rough terrain when off roading. I definitely lose some stability and control because of this. Now I see the importance of squeezing the frame with your legs.

Because the raptor was so heavy in the center it wasn't a wheelie machine. The Q76R with losing close to 20 LBS (9kg) is much more a wheelie machine now, but isn't too bad. This is something all ebikes have to deal with, it was just that the raptor 165 was so heavy that it was much less of a problem.
Click to expand...

So is Q76R more for children use ? how does it feel ?
Can you ride it like a man or it looks funny to go so fast with such a skinny frame ?
what is your personal opinion? maybe it's better to have two ebikes, one heavy for long trips and one skinny to go around for shopping etc.
 
I think 18650 cells are not so reliable even when you use high current cells, as I remember you or another Alex builded in Russia last year a nice battery pack for a bomber by using high current LG cells and after 2-3 months 3 of the cells failed and you've loosed so much time to locate and replace the dead cells.

on the other hand by using big reliable (Nickel Manganese Cobalt) new technology 1p or 2p cells then it's easier to make the pack, easier to monitor and to repair it. (the only problem is to fit it into your frame :D ).
also it doesn't get hot! there are 5C and 10C nominal current cells (I've got the 10C).
Click to expand...


[strike]IIRC those LG cells was damaged during pack welding. After swapping out bad cells the pack performed as intended. I am sure Allex can give more details.[/strike] Ninja'd by Allex :D

Hm I think you are the first person I've seen that have no faith in li ion 18650 cells. Do you think Tesla would use them if they where a bad choice?
The video you linked it is very hard to trust the source - as HPC have money invested in those NiMaCo batteries. Also they are not bashing li ion 18650 cells, they are saying their new chemistry is better then the Lifepo4. Which is not a surprise and also seems to be the consensus around the forum that Lifepo4 is not best choice for high power/high current draw usage.

As I said before the li ion 18650 cans comes in a wide verity of C value, and mAh. As I see it there should be good choices of 18650 cans for most riders. Even if you draw high current a lot there should be cells out like the 30Q that will last you years and years and thousands of miles(the 30Q was used as example cos they have the highest C rate from the top of my head - might even be other that have higher C rate). I've noticed that most BMS's will not allow battery A >100-150A. You can easily make a 30Q pack matching those BMS's. And most riders will spend a good part of their rides at cruising level - meaning not WOT @all time. So life expectancies should be still be great even for those who ride hard as long as they use best practice battery management. Heck even people with Lipo packs and good battery routines have managed to squeeze out 5 years of life of the pack and more then 10.000 miles. And we know li ion 18650 does last longer then Lipo.

Another great thing with 18650 Li ion cells is that we now have several trust worthy sources for buying cells. Both in EU and US,

I am not bashing the NimaCo chemistry as I don't know much about it. And I am sure there are good sources to gather batteries from for that chemistry as well. But batteries are prone to fakes, knock offs and piracy. And many here has tried to save a few bucks on their pack testing out various sources for cells just to discover that what they thought was legit brand name cells was actually fakes. I for once is so conservative that I would need more then one mans experiences before deciding on source and chemistry.
 
Offroader said:
Just wanted to add that I have been bashing the raptor 165 but it did have some advantages.

You can't beat the comfort of the raptor 165 motorcycle seat. It was like we say in America, like driving a Cadillac. It was very comfortable because it was wide and had a lot of padding. I could sit down over very hard bumps and it wouldn't hurt at all. The Q76R is not as padded, you also can sometimes feel the edges of the seat with the right hits. It is a good seat, but not like the Raptor 165 seat.

I remember reading a dirt bike article about the importance that riders should grip the frame with their legs for support. I notice that I can't do this with the Q76R, the frame is that narrow there is no way to grip the frame with your legs. I do notice that I don't have the stability when driving straight and fast over rough terrain when off roading. I definitely lose some stability and control because of this. Now I see the importance of squeezing the frame with your legs.
Click to expand...

fully agree. I also like to press the knees to the frame when riding more agressive - especially on that bike where i used two peli cases as battery housing (which are about 21cm wide). this way i have a much better feel and control over the bike, but pedalling isn't really comfortable anymore. maybe i swap them for foot pegs sometime :)

about the battery temperature: where do you have placed the sensor?
it would be optimal to place it on the case of the cell on half height or in the middle. the wires or nickel conductors probably will show higher temp as the cell itself.

btw, just in case that someone doesn't know: between the 76R and 165, there is the 145 Frame.

macribs said:
Hm I think you are the first person I've seen that have no faith in li ion 18650 cells. Do you think Tesla would use them if they where a bad choice?
The video you linked it is very hard to trust the source - as HPC have money invested in those NiMaCo batteries. Also they are not bashing li ion 18650 cells, they are saying their new chemistry is better then the Lifepo4. Which is not a surprise and also seems to be the consensus around the forum that Lifepo4 is not best choice for high power/high current draw usage.
Click to expand...
From what i have seen so far, most of what HPS is saying (referring to power ratings or specs) is far away from true.
For instance they put a HPC sticker on a stock 3000W motor and sell it as 6000W motor for much higher price with notes like SPECIAL MADE AND ONLY AVAILABLE FROM US, SPECIAL WINDINGS and such things to capture customers. Short time ago i asked them a few questons about such motor and got no response. I wonder why?!

This battery might have good performance etc, but most packs with only 1p will usually sooner or later show some drift which means the BMS needs to work a lot and charing takes longer. For a well balanced pack with high lifespan it's better to have more, smaller cells in parallel. at least thats my experience..
 
So lets take the subjects one by one.

I am not saying that 18650 cells are not good, I am saying that at the most of the cases they don't last for long and I have reasons and facts to say this.

Many people say Tesla motors use them so they are the best. Of course nowadays 18650 cells have the highest energy density but don't forget that Tesla is a car not an ebike that has limited battery space
so they have plenty of space to install thousands of 18650 cells so the advantage is they draw very low current from each of the cell that's why they live for up to 5 years.

if you are speaking about the Samsung INR18650-30Q according to the official PDF specs it gives the ridiculous life expectancy 300 cycles when you draw 15A and after that the cell will be able to give only the 73.8% of it's initial capacity.
that means if you really want to have this battery pack for many cycles you have to charge it up to 4.1V and to discharge it up to 3.2V so with simple words as offroader said yesterday you don't use the 25% of the capacity!
so you don't take advantage of the light weight 18650 cells so simply.

if u want to draw 150A with your Max E then you need a battery pack capable of giving 450A in order not to destroy the cells in a few months. that means you need a pack that has 30P Samsung cells. Do you have enough space for this?

As I said before I charge my battery pack at 4.18V and I discharge it at 3V and still rocks. I've attached the pics. so I use every drop of my battery pack without problems not only the 75% of it.
The new NCM cells guarantee minimum 1000 cycles and many customers used them to build motorcycles and sport cars. they have tested at 1000A for 10 seconds and after that they were not damaged and still in working conditions.
as I know the company sent some samples to some customers and their feedback was very good.

I will update when my pack will be older to tell you exactly about the performance.
About the price these cells are not cheaper, with the shipping costs and the Taxes it will cost you the same but you take the advantage of the high current and the higher life expectancy.
it depends which cell you buy, there are 3C - 5C - 10C cells at the market, the 10C of course will live longer.

Anyway I think it's not bad to share our ideas and also I am out of the subject, this session is for Q76R frame.
if someone really wants to find out then he has to do a serious research with facts and then to speak honestly.
you cannot judge something that you don't have into your hands to test it.

Ioannis
 
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