Regerative braking, amperage, limitations and capacity for pedicabs with cyclone motors.

Kencameron1

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With existing motor controllers how can you get maximum regenerative braking out of a “4000W” Cyclone motor with its standard ~6to1 planetary gear box? What are the limiting factors? The controller? The battery BMS? The cells?

I ask of this in the context of pedicabs, often with 6 or more passengers and trying to extend their run times.

All input is appreciated.

-Ken
 
To find the "bottlenecks" you'll need to make yourself a list:

--what is the charging current maximum for your cells?

--what is the charging current maximum for the BMS? ****

--what is the regen current maximum for the controller?

--what is the maximum force your motor/gearbox/chain/etc can take?

Some other thoughts:

--is your controller only on/off regen, or is it variable (proportional)? On/off regen means that you get either no braking force or all braking force possible, suddenly, and the shock loads can be quite hard on all the mechanical components between wheel and motor (and the motor mounts). Variable means you have some (or complete) control over the braking force via some form of variable control*****

--is there a freewheel or clutch between your motor and wheel, so it doesn't backdrive the motor when coasting, or when just pedalling, for instance.


For your typical usage scenario, regen is likely to only get you a few percent back at most. I typically see at most 5% or so, and usually less than that, around 2-3%, if I use regen exclusively for braking, not the mechanical brakes, which means much longer braking distances/times (especially when SBC is heavily loaded). So depending on your range extension needs, vs the extra complexity and/or wear on the system, it may be simpler/cheaper/more reliable to add more battery.

**** is the BMS a common-port, which is safer for the cells as it can cut off regen if the cells are having a problem / exceeding a limit, or is it a separate-port, which is safer for the controller (the BMS cutting off input current duriing a regen event means voltage at the controlelr will spike, and it may spike high enough to damage the controller since it has nowhere to go).


***** I use a cable-operated throttle unit pulled by a brake lever to do this on my SB Cruiser heavy-cargo trike, to give a bit of extra braking force using the rear motors. The "standard" grinfineon controller on the left side does not have as much control and does not brake to zero speed, but the phaserunner on the right side does have complete control and does brake to zero speed.

Had some other thoughts in mind but JellyBeanThePerfectlyNormalSchmoo required attentionals, and I forgot them in the meantime.
 

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To find the "bottlenecks" you'll need to make yourself a list:

--what is the charging current maximum for your cells?

--what is the charging current maximum for the BMS? ****

--what is the regen current maximum for the controller?

--what is the maximum force your motor/gearbox/chain/etc can take?

Some other thoughts:

--is your controller only on/off regen, or is it variable (proportional)? On/off regen means that you get either no braking force or all braking force possible, suddenly, and the shock loads can be quite hard on all the mechanical components between wheel and motor (and the motor mounts). Variable means you have some (or complete) control over the braking force via some form of variable control*****

--is there a freewheel or clutch between your motor and wheel, so it doesn't backdrive the motor when coasting, or when just pedalling, for instance.


For your typical usage scenario, regen is likely to only get you a few percent back at most. I typically see at most 5% or so, and usually less than that, around 2-3%, if I use regen exclusively for braking, not the mechanical brakes, which means much longer braking distances/times (especially when SBC is heavily loaded). So depending on your range extension needs, vs the extra complexity and/or wear on the system, it may be simpler/cheaper/more reliable to add more battery.

**** is the BMS a common-port, which is safer for the cells as it can cut off regen if the cells are having a problem / exceeding a limit, or is it a separate-port, which is safer for the controller (the BMS cutting off input current duriing a regen event means voltage at the controlelr will spike, and it may spike high enough to damage the controller since it has nowhere to go).


***** I use a cable-operated throttle unit pulled by a brake lever to do this on my SB Cruiser heavy-cargo trike, to give a bit of extra braking force using the rear motors. The "standard" grinfineon controller on the left side does not have as much control and does not brake to zero speed, but the phaserunner on the right side does have complete control and does brake to zero speed.

Had some other thoughts in mind but JellyBeanThePerfectlyNormalSchmoo required attentionals, and I forgot them in the meantime.
Amberwolf, thank you for your thoughts. FYI I’m not trying to sell this set up as a product, I’m no longer in the pedicab industry, but I still like to contribute to their collective benifit. I’ve been musing on this subject here at this private Facebook group:


Charging current max for cells: 16s1p 50ah lifepo4 is most common battery type, but it varies for operator to operators. Theoretically 1c charging would theoretically allow 50amps of charging.

The BMS is something I’m trying to get more information on about max charge rate. Back in the day (2018 to 2020) I helped oimported a few hundred of these types of 16s1p 50ah lifepo4 batteries. The BMS has a common charge / discharge. They were originally used in solar storage applications, but with some modification to the packaging worked great for pedicabs. Continuous discharge is 50 amps, with bursts of 100amps. I’ve contacted our supplier about charge max and am waiting to hear back.

Currently the controller does no regen, and the motor chain drive has a freewheel. I’m wanting to let people get away from the motor freewheel and replace with a solid sprocket for added reliability, with the added benifit of regen braking. I am hoping to find the “best” i.e. most powerful regen controller and BMS (if necessary) in the 50 to 100 amp output range. Of course, lower price is better, and the fewest pieces (points of failure) that have to work together to be functional is best.

-Ken
 
Charging current max for cells: 16s1p 50ah lifepo4 is most common battery type, but it varies for operator to operators. Theoretically 1c charging would theoretically allow 50amps of charging.
Then you could safely do 50A of regen current. Keep in mind as cells age they can do less and less discharge or charge current (their resistance grows, so votlage sag or rise and internal heating increases; also their capacity grows less and less at the same time)

How much braking force that gets you depends on the torque the drivetrain and motor produce with that much drive current--however much torque that is at the wheel is how much torque you get when forcing that much current back into the battery.

If the batteries are close enough to full then the current they'll accept is less than that, so braking will be less. As they get closer to empty they'll more easily accept that much current, and the easier it is to generate it by the voltage difference between the generated votlage at the motor/controller and the battery's lower voltage.



The BMS is something I’m trying to get more information on about max charge rate. Back in the day (2018 to 2020) I helped oimported a few hundred of these types of 16s1p 50ah lifepo4 batteries. The BMS has a common charge / discharge. They were originally used in solar storage applications, but with some modification to the packaging worked great for pedicabs. Continuous discharge is 50 amps, with bursts of 100amps. I’ve contacted our supplier about charge max and am waiting to hear back.

Best guess is charge is more like a tenth to a fifth of that--that's a common ratio, since ti's also a common ratio for cells' capabilities.


Depending on the charge current needed for the braking force required,


Currently the controller does no regen, and the motor chain drive has a freewheel. I’m wanting to let people get away from the motor freewheel and replace with a solid sprocket for added reliability,

Those are both easy enough to change. Does the pedal drive have a separate freewheel? If not, you might want to add one.


with the added benifit of regen braking. I am hoping to find the “best” i.e. most powerful regen controller and BMS (if necessary) in the 50 to 100 amp output range. Of course, lower price is better, and the fewest pieces (points of failure) that have to work together to be functional is best.

Keep in mind the controller probably needs to be one that can handle high ERPM as well; many are suitable for hubmotors but not always for middrives, especially with high motor RPM and number of pole pairs.

I also do highly recommend the variable control vs the on/off control, both for controllability of the braking force and for reducing stress on the drivetrain from shock loads.

Most FOC controllers would be suitable, as long as they can do the current and voltage required. VESC variants, maybe the Phaserunner or various other ASI variants, or if you don't mind the hefty DIY, even the Lebowski brain chip / board (which you'd have to build a controller around) or various other opensource FOC projects.

Which one is most suitable will also depend on the traction capabilities required, as well as what else is needed (like throttle, PAS, any display or other features, etc).
 
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