Renamed: Kona Coiler Custom

[underdog]

EDIT: Cutting the DH Team from the thread

I found this forum about a mounth ago. Since then new inspiration has formed into detailed plans, and set into action:

Since I live in Oslo city, I had some criterias:
* Comfortable, even on rough paved roads and tram-tracks.
* Strong enough to take me up the hill whit a trolley on the back.
* Fast enough to flow with trafic easerly.
* Drivable in rough conditions like rain and snow.

The build:

I bought a second hand Kona Coiler 6" suspension frame from 2006. Incredibly strong, almost imbreakable alu frame without the DH-weight,
Then I got hold of a Rock Shox Tora 80mm fork. Theese to strong as an ox without the cost. I serviced them and adjusted the suspension lenght to 130mm to match the frame. Its ok to have a couple of cm`s ekstra travel in the back so you dont need to lift you ass on crossings and similar. Then I found a good old suspension seat from my old city-cruiser singlespeed. The most comfortable bike seat I have ever owned. Thus a little big. This and a new Raceface crank, 7 speed chain and shimano shifter formed the base. And magura marta carbon 160mm hydraulic brakes was used. Only having used juicy and shimano xt before theese where a total revelation in operation. Stops better than my 200mm shimano disks on my DH bike. Went for ritchey bars and stem. And THE Sportline front mudguard and a costumized rear fender, mounted to the suspension arms.

I choose to order the CNE Bikes 1000w rear motor, controller and 48v 10Ah rackmounted LifePo4 battery.

Its supossed to arive tomorrow. Do anybody have any experience with theese motors? I havent found much here on the forum til now, so any information would be helpfull. I was hoping to exchange the natterypack and controller so I could release some of its retaining potentials with higher speeds.

So far in the build:

I would appreciate feedback from the experienced

Regards

Magnus

 

[Supertux1]

What kind of rack are you going to put on that bike to support the battery?

 

[underdog]

Im going to adapt a normal bike rack for it. I just need to fabricate some brackets for it. Still waiting for the battery, so not much more to do on this bike right now. Allready got the kit and finished installing it today. The bike:

I also started working on another commuter for my selv. Had an old Giant DH Team frame lying around, so thought I might as well build two bikes. Im pretty sure my girlfriend is going to assume posession of the Kona anyways

Had some issues fitting the rear breake calipper because the 1000w rated motor was wider than the 500w on the kona.

So made this quickfix for now... New part must be fabricated in the near future.

Cant wait to test them!

 

[Drunkskunk]

Both look realy good, Konas make great Ebikes. I'm running a Kona Stinky, which is like the coiler's big brother. From experiance, I can tell you you'll hate the battery on a rack, It will seriously upset the bike's balance. But you'll absolutly love it if you can get the weight inside the triangle. even strapped to the side, it will be better than on the rear. If all else fails, carry the weight up on the handlebars.

 

[arkmundi]

Looks like it will be a great ride! Battery on a rack isn't so bad - I hardly notice its there and maintain balance just fine. But then again, I've got a 500 watt motor at 36V, and don't try to go fast.

 

[underdog]

Thank you for the feedback.

I have been thinking of mounting the battery halfway inside the frame. Its to big to sit in the triangle without interfering with the rear shock. But maybe if I mounted it diagonaly, so that the rear part of the battery sits inside, while the front sticks out on left or right up towards the steeringtube. Its seems to me like the best solution given the circumstances.

While on the subject of batteries... I`m lost on the Giant. Right now the budget is running low, so I need a economical solution for getting the DH Team running. 48v and 1000w motor. Dont need much range, 10 miles will do. What sould I buy? Flightmax 8400 or similar?

 

[DAND214]

No more Zippys for me! You shouldn't either.

Dan

 

[whereswally606]

Wouldn't mount the controller on the swing arm. It might lead to premature failure due to increased vibrations

 

[underdog]

No more Zippys for me! You shouldn't either.

Dan

Ok. I would love to know why.

 

[DAND214]

Zippys are over rated in C rate and capacity.
Also they seem to have more failures than Turnigys.

Not just my experance but others also.

Dan

 

[arkmundi]

No more Zippys for me! You shouldn't either.

Ok. I would love to know why.

There are many different battery "camps" here in ESland and you'll want to join one, because common cause can be mutually beneficial, for information sharing, for help when you need it, for confidence. To try to break it down some:
--SLA (Sealed Lead Acid)
--RC LiPo (Lithium Polymer pouch)
-------Tynergy
-------Zippy
-------Other
--Cylindricals (laptop 18650 LiCo and other consumer electronics)
-------Panasonic
-------Samsung
-----------AllCell (out of Chicago)
-------A123 nano-LiFePO4 Cylindrical formats (18650, 26650)
-----------Dewalt tool breakouts
-------Other
-- LiFePO4
------ The A123 AMP20 prismatic nanophospate pouch cells
----------Cellman's packs
----------Find cells and build your own packs {ME}
-------Other LiFePO4
-----------Ping

What I mean by a camp is that there are multiple threads, supported by many different people, who have experimented buying available product, either building their own packs, or buying off-the-shelf product, and sharing their experience here at ES. Once you "join" a camp, make the initial investment, including into charging and monitoring equipment, you'll find yourself committed, so will remain "camped". Until some epic failure that costs, sometime a lot, like when you burn your house down trying to charge a faulty LiPo battery pack and then move-on to another.

It can be quite confusing, even for the well informed, and battery tech is changing all the time. The best recommendation is to become well informed before "buying-in"". A good place to start is The Endless-Sphere Wiki and The Battery University.

So your question "I would love to know why", perhaps unbeknownst to you, is essential. Just be prepared to get a lot of different perspective, some of which can be trusted, and some less-so. Best!

 

[underdog]

Thank you for your indepth reply.

I have read many a post and websites now. My desicion based on the information gathered has made me a ("theoretical") beliver of the Lifepo4 architecture. Maybe a little heavier than the "standard" lithium, but seems to me the increased power delivery and safety outweighs this. Atleast in my application. So the hunt has started for a suitable "plug-and-pray" -solution.

I am currently trying to pick a seller. Anybody got experience with theese packs / seller? http://www.ebay.com/itm/LifePo4-48V-16-5AH-Include-BMS-in-the-pack-Air-Shipping-for-2000W-Bike-/161089752840?pt=US_Rechargeable_Batteries&hash=item2581b28f08

...or similar?

Best Regards
Magnus

 

[arkmundi]

Thank you for your indepth reply.

I have read many a post and websites now. My desicion based on the information gathered has made me a ("theoretical") beliver of the Lifepo4 architecture. Maybe a little heavier than the "standard" lithium, but seems to me the increased power delivery and safety outweighs this. Atleast in my application. So the hunt has started for a suitable "plug-and-pray" -solution.

I am currently trying to pick a seller. Anybody got experience with theese packs / seller? http://www.ebay.com/itm/LifePo4-48V-16-5AH-Include-BMS-in-the-pack-Air-Shipping-for-2000W-Bike-/161089752840?pt=US_Rechargeable_Batteries&hash=item2581b28f08

...or similar?

Best Regards
Magnus

LiFePO4 is a good choice for the reasons you've come to understand. There are cautionary tales on the purchase of batteries through eBay, so sourcing your battery is also an important question. I (and many others) would recommend http://em3ev.com/store/, http://www.pingbattery.com or http://headway-headquarters.com/, among the top sellers.

If buying through eBay, check the seller's ratings an ASK them, through a phone call or email, what their warranty or guarantee is. Also be aware that if you have to ship your battery back for some reason, that there will be difficulty finding a carrier, since shipping lithium-ion batteries of all sorts is now regulated. Many of the sellers available are in China. The moral of that is that be certain you're buying good product BEFORE you buy. Also, using eBay, make use of PayPal, as there are mechanisms for cost recovery if things go wrong. Good luck! You'll need it given the many risks.

 

[cal3thousand]

Zippys are over rated in C rate and capacity.
Also they seem to have more failures than Turnigys.

Not just my experance but others also.

Dan

I'll second that... they cost more and are crappy-ER

 

[underdog]

I have been testing the bike for a while now... And the same problem keeps popping up on my Kona:
The motor seems to be out of sync or something. Just like the controllers timing is off. It kind off bursts small pulls and dies on me each time i pull the throttle. I first thought it was a bad batteri, and lov voltage cut off. But voltage was just fine...

So i switched to my 12 mos controller. And boy did it kick up some speed. Made 54 kph according to my GPS. What a blast )))

But is my original controller for the 500w motor dead or something? Can timing be off on a std chinese controller with no settings???

 

[underdog]

The Giant DH Team:

Since my Controller intended for this bike had to serve as a replacement on my Kona, I need a new one. I have been looking at a 12 FET IRFB4110 INFINEON CONTROLLER from EM3ev. I liked the variable voltage up to 72v. And the programable features. Im thinking of investing in a Cycle analyst 2,3 at the same order.

And ofcourse the batteries. I have tryed to find the best option in my budget. After much searching I have found that Trunigy 4500mAh 6S2P LifePo4 RC-packs will be the best priced options for me (want close to 60v since I am running 20" wheels on this). http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__10311__Turnigy_4500mAh_6S2P_30C_LiFePo4_Pack.html
Is this a good options (Running 6 of theese packs 3 in series and 2 paralel) ???? 400 USD for a 59,4 volt 9Ah Lifepo4 packs seems to me like a good price at least...

Feedback on the choise would be greatly appreciated

 

[arkmundi]

I think you need to read the reviews at the hobbyking store site:

• my battery is faulty, one cell died after second charge with balancing at low amp 4.5A... -(
• Also found one cell group to be dead on arrival.
• i have total 4 packs (2 x 3S and 2 x 6S). ALL packs are bloated by itself after 2 weeks of charge. I dont even have chance to use it!
• As it was a purchase for future project, I only start the charge after 30days of purchase. now their policy is SORRY.. it is after 30days... good luck on you.
• I am certain the quality is in question!

and this:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1206770
GREAT PRICE - LOUSY BATTERIES - I WILL SAVE MY MONEY FOR A123 LiPO4 cells after this.

and this:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...ismatics-building-hybrid-lifepo4-52276p2.html
"The question as to whether or not the Turnigy LiFePO4 battery packs are any good for use at primary power packs in RC applications has been answered as far as I am concerned. And the answer is a clear and resounding, No!" .... see post #90 on that thread for details if interested... they recommended A123 instead. duh.

Without looking very hard, I found plenty of negative comments and very few positive comments. I also attempted to find out how many charge/discharge cycles can be expected from them and found nothing, no datasheet or specification that would provide test results. You should never buy lithium-ion batteries or cells with that.

The Turnigy is a LiFePO4 6S2P / 19.8v / 4.5Ah pack for $70.98. Putting those costs in equivalent A123 AMP20 terms which now cost $70 per cell: Turnigy - 4.3 * $70.98 = $305.22; A123 - 6 * $70 = $420 {the 4.3 factor is 19.5ah ÷ 4.5ah, the capacity of the A123 vs the Turnigy}. So for about a third more, you get a much, much better battery, with unequivocal positive support, and actual datasheets telling you 2000+ charge/discharge cycles (more likey 3000+.

If I were you, I try real hard to get a datasheet for the Turnigy, from hobbyking, the vendor you're about to buy from. If the cycle life <1000, which I expect it is, you'd be paying more for the Turnigy.

 

[underdog]

Ohyess... How n00b of me
Thank you for putting me back in line

Then I will be looking for 75v A123 10Ah pack... The 20Ah was my first choice, but couldnt afford...

 

[underdog]

Due to insufficiant funds, a temporary backupplan has been layed:

Battery: 5x Trunigy 5000mAh 4S1P 14,8v 20c lipo hardcase packs in series. 74v, 5Ah all permamently connected together with a 20s active BMS.
Controller: 12 FET IRFB4110 Infineon 36-72v (90v max) 40A limit.
Dash: Cycle analyst 2,3

Not the perfect solution, but I gotta get this thing running fast. And upgrade later. Starting engineering school soon, so car is sold.

 

[majornelson]

Which BMS are you using?

 

[underdog]

I havent decided. Hard to find 20s & 24S Li-ion PCM/BMS... Still looking.

So at the moment I am getting the motor ready for a bit more power. (I hope...)

I want a bit larger gauge cables. Very thin ones are used. I am also considering to mount a temp-sensor somewhere close to the top.

Bearings look like crap to... allready rusty on a unused motor?? Gotta order up some industrial ones. (titanium??)


Ah, new speed set with the kona. 56 kph A bit more air in the tyres should get me close to 60. temp battery solution:

 

[comradegerry]

Nice bike, looks really practical.

I am looking at getting a 48v BMS from the guys at Bestekpower, I have not got it yet so cannot vouch for quality but they do sell the larger voltage BMS. Might be worth a look at least.

http://www.bestekpower.com/20sto26spcmbmspcbforli-ionli-polymerbatterypack/

 

[underdog]

Nice bike, looks really practical.

I am looking at getting a 48v BMS from the guys at Bestekpower, I have not got it yet so cannot vouch for quality but they do sell the larger voltage BMS. Might be worth a look at least.

http://www.bestekpower.com/20sto26spcmbmspcbforli-ionli-polymerbatterypack/

They do have what I need. I cant find any prices though. What did you pay for yours? Looks like the best option so far. thanks

Ordered: http://www.batterypcm.com/74v20spcmbmspcbforli-ionli-polymerbatterypack/PCM-D131.html

 

[underdog]

I am trying to visualise the power of the Giant DH Team using the brilliant calculators of ebikes.ca...

But I cant find my motors. They are probably some standard chineese low-level stuff. Got them from CNEbikes.com. Inputting all the specs from the cona bike, knowing my topspeed. I have found that that motor is somewhere near the Golden Motor 500w (same watt listen on kona-motor also).

Using this information as a reference I tryed to visualise the Giant. But this one have a 1000w china-motor. This is not reflected in the graph. Does anyone know if the difference between theese two is "worth talking about"??

 

[underdog]

Did`nt like the "homemade-look", so rebuild started. Trying to make everything look as intergrated and factory as possible...