Shutoff problem Q100H with KU93 at higher RPMs

[eagle_eye]

Hello wepfi
Essentially you put the picture files on a web-/file-server with internet connection - or a cloud service like Dropbox with 'public folder' function - and add the URL or public links of the pics to your postings. Using the Img or URL tags with the links in the ES editor would be useful.
bye

[ ... ]

And if anyone can explaind me correctly how to upload
pics from my computer, I will post old and new inside!

 

[chvidgov.bc.ca]

Hi Eagle...

Not sure about the Q100H on the Ecrazy.

Your link is indeed the same controller I'm using found here I think (which is where I bought it).... http://www.ebay.ca/itm/48V-350W-bru...117?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cbbfc4db5

I doubt if 48V controller can be used with 36V batt.pack also i.e. with lowered LVC to <30V....ECrazy's exist I think with lower LVC for 36V nominal but not this particular one.

I figured that 48/15amp was perfect for the Cute, with just the right max amps. I measured the actual max amps at 14.7 on my watt meter.

In truth I think I generally prefer my old Crystalyte 40x series DD motors to the Cutes, in terms of power, quiet and reliability...I wish the 404, 405 and 406 models were still available here in North America.

I've had at least one Cute "go bad" due to vibration/shock affecting the Halls.

 

[cal3thousand]

I would try a lyen/em3ev 6FET controller as an alternative. If i can drive my MAC to 45mph without stuttering ( 16 pole motor, 5:1 reduction; surely your motor has half the poles ), then it's very likely that you'll be able to drive the Q100H well.

Do you have the 268rpm at 36v model, by chance?

If so, on 48v, you are going to be in the low-mid 300rpm area. Let's say 320rpm under load. so 320rpm x 12.6 = 4032..
That's almost RC motor territory!!

Now, i hit 45mph on my MAC with a cell_man/em3ev 12FET.. that's 560RPM at the wheel x 5 = 2800rpm, but since i have easily twice the poles as this motor, the controller would be working at least twice as hard, so let's think about that as 5,600rpm.

I think a lyen/em3ev 6fet is certainly worth a try. At the least, it would be useful for another motor in the future. Great controller.. programmable and solid.

Lyen's sensorless controllers have issues with MACs. His sensored ones work well with MACs though

 

[neptronix]

No surprise there.
This is a sensored motor tho..

 

[friendly1uk]

Nice to hear the q128 is to get a mid rpm version. Odd too though. I thought it a poor seller due to 145 dropouts and reliability issues. Although I know it has been reworked, I have heard nothing of them since.

I would like a 260 rpm q100 myself. I feel the 201 is just dull eu performance I couldn't be happy with, and 328 unsuitable for a 26" wheel. They have always done 201 and 328 at 250w so with the hike to 350w surely a 260rpm motor should follow.

 

[neptronix]

Nice to hear the q128 is to get a mid rpm version. Odd too though. I thought it a poor seller due to 145 dropouts and reliability issues. Although I know it has been reworked, I have heard nothing of them since.

I would like a 260 rpm q100 myself. I feel the 201 is just dull eu performance I couldn't be happy with, and 328 unsuitable for a 26" wheel. They have always done 201 and 328 at 250w so with the hike to 350w surely a 260rpm motor should follow.

We're referencing the Q128H here, not the Q128, fyi.
Different motor.

Running the Q100H 201RPM version on 48 volts and maybe an amp or two higher than rated would give you a decent top speed. Wouldn't be a very good steep hill climber like a larger geared motor ( bafang BPM, MAC, BMC ), but it would be a 4.6lb motor that could propel you on the flats at 20mph ( 32kph? ) if you pedaled along.

I think it's very ideal for a low power assist situation where you need to be able to lift/transport the bicycle easily.

 

[neptronix]

One thing i plan to do with the Q128H is remove the nut from one side, replace it with a washer or two, and then proceed to have about ~5mm taken off the the other side.

This will limit you to a 5-6 speed freewheel, but i don't see that as a problem with such a small speed range.
Another disadvantage is that you'll be limited to using vbrakes doing that, but if you have a ~700W continuous motor, you're probably going for low weight and don't need much in the way of braking capability anyway, yes? so it's not a huge loss.

I think it would be a suitable motor for a 26" wheel with the 260rpm winding on 48v or 46v ( 12S ) lipo. You should be able to hit about 25mph continuous and have a little extra torque on tap for climbing. Being 3.4lbs lighter than a MAC, i think it would be the best option possible for a middle of the line gear motor, considering it's weight and size.

It's worth throwing a few bucks at to try to get working.

 

[eagle_eye]

As an update report to the Q100H motor shutoff problem, checked the hall-sensor connections and was testdriving again today and the shutoff problem at high motor RPMs is still there.

Another thing I experience is that the Q100H at the front gives rather disproportionately loud growling/grunting sound when driving up the bike at low RPM - even with low load and babying the throttle. Its significantly louder than the MAC hub at the rear when prioritized to drive up the bike. After a certain RPM threshold the growling sound of the Q100H vanishes and the motor is buzzing rather quietly and nicely. Is that a typical behavior of the Q100(H) motor series or possibly due to the KU93 imperfect working together with the Q100H also ?

And with the KU93 having the stated 'Learning mode' feature - do I have to run some learning-mode prosedure at the beginning in combination with the q100h hub motor to optimize the contoller-motor setup and avoid problems ? If yes how does that work ?
Thanks

 

[motomech]

As an update report to the Q100H motor shutoff problem, checked the hall-sensor connections and was testdriving again today and the shutoff problem at high motor RPMs is still there.

Another thing I experience is that the Q100H at the front gives rather disproportionately loud growling/grunting sound when driving up the bike at low RPM - even with low load and babying the throttle. Its significantly louder than the MAC hub at the rear when prioritized to drive up the bike. After a certain RPM threshold the growling sound of the Q100H vanishes and the motor is buzzing rather quietly and nicely. Is that a typical behavior of the Q100(H) motor series or possibly due to the KU93 imperfect working together with the Q100H also ?

And with the KU93 having the stated 'Learning mode' feature - do I have to run some learning-mode prosedure at the beginning in combination with the q100h hub motor to optimize the contoller-motor setup and avoid problems ? If yes how does that work ?
Thanks

Cutes are quiet, so it sounds to me like you have a Hall problem. You could disconnect them to see what happens. I have run a regular Cute sensorless on a K63 and it worked ok. Just so low power, it can be tricky to sync at start. You need to get this sorted out or you will break the gears.
Many of us get several controllers when we put in an order, since they are so cheap. It's shipping one that hurts$$$.
It's easy to mod the shunt to 17 Amps on any of these genaric 6 fets, it's the LVC that want to get right for your battery pack if you need the controller to save your batt.s. Since the cable is the same for all Q100's, it is the limiting factor for the Q100H. I have melted the hall wires at 22 Amps on a Lynn Mini-Monster, although it was a 328 running slow which is hard on the wires\windings.
I don't think that BMS has a 6 fet that has a LVC that is right for 12S, but I have seen them from other Chinese vendors. Perhaps Ecrazyman can set one up for you
Lynn set the LVC on my Mini-Monster, but a Mini-Monster is overkill on a Q100, even a Q100H.
You need to get a K63(or equvilent) to try out.

I have built several 2WD minis and I like the idea of mini front and larger geared on the rear. I have an Ezee rear to mate up to a mini when I have time.
I have tried serveral throttle set ups, but kike the controll of two throttle best.

 

[wepfi]

New and old KU93 -- test link

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6CI9xQM3lvGSGtMZUFldHhBUTg/edit?usp=sharing

 

[motomech]

One thing i plan to do with the Q128H is remove the nut from one side, replace it with a washer or two, and then proceed to have about ~5mm taken off the the other side.

This will limit you to a 5-6 speed freewheel, but i don't see that as a problem with such a small speed range.
Another disadvantage is that you'll be limited to using vbrakes doing that, but if you have a ~700W continuous motor, you're probably going for low weight and don't need much in the way of braking capability anyway, yes? so it's not a huge loss.

I think it would be a suitable motor for a 26" wheel with the 260rpm winding on 48v or 46v ( 12S ) lipo. You should be able to hit about 25mph continuous and have a little extra torque on tap for climbing. Being 3.4lbs lighter than a MAC, i think it would be the best option possible for a middle of the line gear motor, considering it's weight and size.

It's worth throwing a few bucks at to try to get working.

I am suprised to see you messing around with Minis again.
D8VH thought the Q100H had, at most 10% more power that the regular Cute. That would still be less than the MXUS, a motor that you were less than impressed with. I still run a frt. MXUS on a 22A LYnn and it will wall away from a Cute(both on 12S).
I suspect the bulk of any performance gain is from 260 rpm @ 36V. The MXUS is 270 rpm and this really is the range for a mini. A single 201 Q100 spins out of rpm around 19-20 mph and a 328 runs out of power around to same speed. On the flat, I would think the Q100H would top out the same as the MXUS, 22 to 23 mph on 12S.
Must folks that have commented on the Q128 here has thought it a Dog.

 

[motomech]

The new KU93 are completely different from the old
ones (on the pics), for example the resistor behind the shunts now
is at the right side.
Also the circuit board is different.
On the bms page now they announce a learning mode!

And if anyone can explaind me correctly how to upload
pics from my computer, I will post old and new inside!

I think this poster is on to something here, the "learning mode" raises
a possible red flag.

 

[neptronix]

I am suprised to see you messing around with Minis again.
D8VH thought the Q100H had, at most 10% more power that the regular Cute. That would still be less than the MXUS, a motor that you were less than impressed with. I still run a frt. MXUS on a 22A LYnn and it will wall away from a Cute(both on 12S).
I suspect the bulk of any performance gain is from 260 rpm @ 36V. The MXUS is 270 rpm and this really is the range for a mini. A single 201 Q100 spins out of rpm around 19-20 mph and a 328 runs out of power around to same speed. On the flat, I would think the Q100H would top out the same as the MXUS, 22 to 23 mph on 12S.
Must folks that have commented on the Q128 here has thought it a Dog.

I'm rather shocked that anyone here remembers what i was doing ~4 years ago!

I never hopped up the MXUS at all, just heard good stories about it *after* i sold the motor. Cell_man advised me not to buy one of his 6fets as an upgrade and sold me on the MAC, and shipped me a controller that was mistakenly programmed for 42A instead of 35 or 30A... lol.

What bugged me about the MXUS mainly was it's freewheeling - it was awful at that. I even rode a brand new one the other day and realized that mine wasn't just a fluke - it just always has some pedal drag and that sucks.. the MAC by contrast is smooth freewheeling as a regular bike wheel.

Maybe it's a good power motor.. it's just the freewheeling that turns me off is all.

I've lost 60 pounds here in the last 6 months, so i am getting back to my original plan that i came to the forums with.. light, and at low speeds where pedaling input still makes a good contribution. I've got a gutted motorcycle hanging out for purposes of going fast later as an EV. I've done 47 on an ebike.. i had my fun. It's time to upgrade.

The people who thought the Q100H was a dog.. did they ever bump up the power, especially the amps? on 201rpm, you are doing 15mph on 36v and that's pathetic. 48v, you're doing 20mph just barely.. but that's not bad for a geared motor.

I know there's been a lot of disappointment with the old Q motors, but nobody has done science, posted videos, etc for the H series. So with that, i'm all for pioneering.. at worst, i'd have not paid a lot for the motors.

 

[motomech]

I am suprised to see you messing around with Minis again.
D8VH thought the Q100H had, at most 10% more power that the regular Cute. That would still be less than the MXUS, a motor that you were less than impressed with. I still run a frt. MXUS on a 22A LYnn and it will wall away from a Cute(both on 12S).
I suspect the bulk of any performance gain is from 260 rpm @ 36V. The MXUS is 270 rpm and this really is the range for a mini. A single 201 Q100 spins out of rpm around 19-20 mph and a 328 runs out of power around to same speed. On the flat, I would think the Q100H would top out the same as the MXUS, 22 to 23 mph on 12S.
Must folks that have commented on the Q128 here has thought it a Dog.

I'm rather shocked that anyone here remembers what i was doing ~4 years ago!

I never hopped up the MXUS at all, just heard good stories about it *after* i sold the motor. Cell_man advised me not to buy one of his 6fets as an upgrade and sold me on the MAC, and shipped me a controller that was mistakenly programmed for 42A instead of 35 or 30A... lol.

What bugged me about the MXUS mainly was it's freewheeling - it was awful at that. I even rode a brand new one the other day and realized that mine wasn't just a fluke - it just always has some pedal drag and that sucks.. the MAC by contrast is smooth freewheeling as a regular bike wheel.

Maybe it's a good power motor.. it's just the freewheeling that turns me off is all.

I've lost 60 pounds here in the last 6 months, so i am getting back to my original plan that i came to the forums with.. light, and at low speeds where pedaling input still makes a good contribution. I've got a gutted motorcycle hanging out for purposes of going fast later as an EV. I've done 47 on an ebike.. i had my fun. It's time to upgrade.

The people who thought the Q100H was a dog.. did they ever bump up the power, especially the amps? on 201rpm, you are doing 15mph on 36v and that's pathetic. 48v, you're doing 20mph just barely.. but that's not bad for a geared motor.0T chain ring.

I know there's been a lot of disappointment with the old Q motors, but nobody has done science, posted videos, etc for the H series. So with that, i'm all for pioneering.. at worst, i'd have not paid a lot for the motors.

It was the Q128 that I called a dog. I don't think any of the old Q motors are worth using.
The Q100 is what it is, a 1.8 Kg. Motor. The MXUS is a 2.3 Kg. motor and will take 20 to 22 AMPS, where the Q100 is limited to around 17 or 18 A.I would think that right now, the best assist motor would be a Q100H CST(They have one right?) on 12S. The top speed limit of rpm and power would be nicely balanced at 22-23 mph, also a good match for a 48T or 50T Chain ring.
It has been posted here that Bafang has a 2.3 Kg. sized mini ready to be offered, but I don't see anything on the Net about it.
For a single mini, I think the bigger 2.3 KG. motor in the 260, 270 rpm range are the way to go.
I don't know what to say about the free wheel issue to have noticed with the MXUS. In all the posts at Amped Bikes, no one mentioned this. My frt.(sensorless) spins like a free hub.

 

[eagle_eye]

Hi wepfi,
thanks for the valuable feedback!

From your picture posted of the two versions of KU93 I obviously have got the left one being the newer version.
You stated that you had the new KU93 tested with Q100 328rpm fast wind motor versions, including the new Q100H version. But from the description at the vendor the Q100H hub is available in 201rpm and 260rpm version only, me having the latter one. So did you test the 260rpm version of the Q100H hub with the new version KU93 controller ? ( the combination I've got )

http://www.bmsbattery.com/front-driving/630-250w350w-q-85100sx-motor-e-bike-kit.html

You said "The new KU93 stop all motors." Can you describe that undue behavior in more detail ? Is the Q100H working ok in low and medium RPM range and shutting off when going to high RPMs with the newer version KU93 - like described in my case ? Did you possibly test the same fast wind 260rpm Q100H with the older version KU93 too and that's working ok without any troubles occurring ?!

Just in case you'd prefer you can post or PM me in German and I'll re-post your essential results for the English folks, if you should be in a hurry or so :wink:
Thanks a lot!
Al.

The new KU93 are different from the old ones. I had the
same problems here. I tested them with all Q100 motors,
front, H, CSt. All motors 328 rpm. The new KU93 stop
all motors.
I tested with a 201 rpm rear. The new KU 93 was working.

 

[fellow]

Someone asked about Q100H 201rpm 36V at 48V (S06S, 26"). Acceleration is very good between 10 km/h and 30 km/h. I have unexpected shutoffs too, mostly at low speed under 10km/h. Is it speed sensor, LCD setup or something else? I've never dared to drive past 30 km/h, it felt more scary than Suzuki GSX-R 1100 1987 at top speed . It took forever to stop Only did one test drive, as the Q100H project is far from finished. By the way, my Q100H is oil cooled (100ml ATF). You can not feel any resistance when pedalling, thanks to ATF oil.

 

[friendly1uk]

Someone asked about Q100H 201rpm 36V at 48V (S06S, 26"). Acceleration is very good between 10 km/h and 30 km/h. I have unexpected shutoffs too, mostly at low speed under 10km/h. Is it speed sensor, LCD setup or something else? I've never dared to drive past 30 km/h, it felt more scary than Suzuki GSX-R 1100 1987 at top speed . It took forever to stop Only did one test drive, as the Q100H project is far from finished. By the way, my Q100H is oil cooled (100ml ATF). You can not feel any resistance when pedalling, thanks to ATF oil.

Anything you can compare it too?

 

[eagle_eye]

Hi
S06P or S06S controllers are the vendors recommended ones ("most suitable controller") for Q100H hub but designed for 24V-36V batt.packs only. Using them with 48V batt. with >50V off the charger doesn't seem to be a reasonable option. Also KU63 is reported to die off rather quickly when used with 48V batt.packs. My AWD setup with the new version of the rather large KU93 controller and the 260rpm Q100H for the front wheel uses no (S series) LCD and LED meters but a 3-speed switch for each motor/controller and one common half-grip throttle, getting the +5V from the MAC controller.

btw. if bike gets shaky at 30 km/h already you should really think of beefing up your rims/tires, maybe frame/fork and get tougher brakes 8)

ps. I've no PAS sensor in use , just control via throttle - its legal in AT contrary to other EU countries :wink:

Someone asked about Q100H 201rpm 36V at 48V (S06S, 26"). Acceleration is very good between 10 km/h and 30 km/h. I have unexpected shutoffs too, mostly at low speed under 10km/h. Is it speed sensor, LCD setup or something else? I've never dared to drive past 30 km/h, it felt more scary than Suzuki GSX-R 1100 1987 at top speed . It took forever to stop Only did one test drive, as the Q100H project is far from finished. By the way, my Q100H is oil cooled (100ml ATF). You can not feel any resistance when pedalling, thanks to ATF oil.

 

[motomech]

Hi
S06P or S06S controllers are the vendors recommended ones ("most suitable controller") for Q100H hub but designed for 24V-36V batt.packs only. Using them with 48V batt. with >50V off the charger doesn't seem to be a reasonable option. Also KU63 is reported to die off rather quickly when used with 48V batt.packs. My AWD setup with the new version of the rather large KU93 controller and the 260rpm Q100H for the front wheel uses no (S series) LCD and LED meters but a 3-speed switch for each motor/controller and one common half-grip throttle, getting the +5V from the MAC controller.

btw. if bike gets shaky at 30 km/h already you should really think of beefing up your rims/tires, maybe frame/fork and get tougher brakes 8)

ps. I've no PAS sensor in use , just control via throttle - its legal in AT contrary to other EU countries :wink:

Someone asked about Q100H 201rpm 36V at 48V (S06S, 26"). Acceleration is very good between 10 km/h and 30 km/h. I have unexpected shutoffs too, mostly at low speed under 10km/h. Is it speed sensor, LCD setup or something else? I've never dared to drive past 30 km/h, it felt more scary than Suzuki GSX-R 1100 1987 at top speed . It took forever to stop Only did one test drive, as the Q100H project is far from finished. By the way, my Q100H is oil cooled (100ml ATF). You can not feel any resistance when pedalling, thanks to ATF oil.

Lots of people here running KU63's on 48V with no problems.

 

[friendly1uk]

Hello Motomech. Not seen you for a bit.

I have not seen anyone using 48v on there ku63. I hear some once came with 63v caps though.
I have heard stories that tally with the expected outcome. It works, but not for very long. The capacitors don't pop instantly when passing there limits, they age rapidly. The excess heat drying them out ahead of their time.

 

[neptronix]

They must be putting some really crappy caps in those if they're 63v and can't handle a battery that is something up to 53v fully charged at most ( lifepo4-ish voltage ).

Well, they're such a low cost for a reason i suppose.

 

[wepfi]

@ eagle_ eye

I only tested Q100 CST, Q100 rear, Q100 front ---- all 328rpm,
are not working the motors stopped suddenly when they
have around 21A.

I tested too a Q100 rear 201 rpm ---- the motor worked
well until 22,8 A.

Caroline from BMS battery don´t know anything about
her products.
Jack Xie from ecitypower has no idea, but he is the
better one to ask --- I exspect his answer tomorrow.

 

[friendly1uk]

They must be putting some really crappy caps in those if they're 63v and can't handle a battery that is something up to 53v fully charged at most ( lifepo4-ish voltage ).

Well, they're such a low cost for a reason i suppose.

Some came with 63v caps. These would take 48v. Generally they come with 50v caps, which won't.


21A in to a q100 328 seems a reasonable time to fail. I'm not happy with why, but it is better than burning the motor. They don't really work past 17amps according to reports. I'm stewing over the idea of putting 21A in to the 350w version.

I notice I slipped up. The q100 was 201 and 328, but the q100h is 201 or 260. So I'm not waiting for something between 201&328 as they have dropped the 328 from the lineup already.

 

[neptronix]

The H series are probably sold at a lower RPM due to their insane eRPM because of the 12:1-13:1 reductions they have.

Give 'em volts and find the limits!

 

[motomech]

They must be putting some really crappy caps in those if they're 63v and can't handle a battery that is something up to 53v fully charged at most ( lifepo4-ish voltage ).

Well, they're such a low cost for a reason i suppose.

Some came with 63v caps. These would take 48v. Generally they come with 50v caps, which won't.


21A in to a q100 328 seems a reasonable time to fail. I'm not happy with why, but it is better than burning the motor. They don't really work past 17amps according to reports. I'm stewing over the idea of putting 21A in to the 350w version.

I notice I slipped up. The q100 was 201 and 328, but the q100h is 201 or 260. So I'm not waiting for something between 201&328 as they have dropped the 328 from the lineup already.

I'm somewhat lerry of BMS's claim of 30% more potential power handling, D8vh thought it felt more like 10%. The H version uses the same cable and the motor weighs the same, so if it will take more power, they can't shed anymore heat than the standard Q100.
D8vh had commented a while back that the higher speed 328 will pull more current than the 201 if wheel rpms drop. That seems to be borne out by the experiences related here.
As I stated eariler, I started to melt the standard bullet connectors for the Hall wires while running the 328 on a Lynn Mini-Monster at 22 Amps(Verified by Cycle Analist). The only reason I found them is that I was finalizing the install while playing with the Lynn. If I had not found the melted connector, I think they would have melted in the motor in short order.
My gut says the "high" teens is the current limit for the Q100 sersis, H model included.