Hillhater
100 TW
I have not heard of Tesla(Panasonic) , or any other cell manufacturers, that have technology anywhere near commercial that would give double the energy density as required for a 700kg , 200kWh , pack.
Li-ion batteries last 500 full cycles, 1000 if you baby them.Cephalotus said:A modern battery cell will last 2.000 to 5.000 full cycles.
Cephalotus said:Arlo1 said:A blanket statement saying that 200kwh in a single car battery is bad for the environment has no meaning as we don't know the production process of said future battery. If it's made at a solar power gigafactory than it might be 100% environmentaly friendly.
It is bad because a 200kWh battery will weight 700kg+ and that weight will cause more consumption It also casues more structural weight for the vehicle, more road damage, it will consume more space because it will be larger and so on...
I admit this is more a problem in Europe than in the US where everything is bigger.
A modern battery cell will last 2.000 to 5.000 full cycles. A 200kWh battery in a low efficiency vehicle will be able to drive lets say 600km/cycle.
so the cells could to up to 3 million km, which nobody will use on the car. So the cells will die of age, most of their potential will be unused.
No matter the energy consumption, the resources needed for a 200kwh are double the resources needed for a 100kWh battery and the main ecological problem comes from copper and aluminum, the most critical element will be cobalt. The electricity source for building the cells itself has an impact, but not a huge one.
And if a look at the Gigafactory 1 I see little public transport, no bikes, but hundreds of large cars from the employees that often drive many, many miles day per day to work somewhere in the desert.
Would be interesting to see a calculation on that.
Cobalt is scare and why waste it for 200kWh batteries for s sports vehicle that you can not allowed to drive at half its top speed in 98% of the world. It's just a Fetish product. That#s fine, but doen't call it "environmental friendly", it's a symbol on stupid waste of resources by Hiomo sapiens.
In my opinion a much wiser design would be a 100kWh battery that can be charged at 300-400kW of power.
Make a efficient vehicle that runs on 25kWh/100km at highway speed (98% of the world) and you are perfectly fine with 3 hours driving and 20 minute charging. Make good high quality cells and you can do that "forever".
An exception is the German Autobahn, if you want to drive 200km/h your 100kWh battery will only last for 60-90 minutes of driving, but that's 2% of the world and even here only 2% of the Autobahn drivers will drive 200km/h, most drive significantly slower.
Pajda said:So 1000 kg seems to me to be achievable at that time. Yes it is still lot of mass but Roadster 2 will have advanced three motor configuration with torque vectoring. This kind of powertrain have possibility to almost "switch off" the problem of high mass in modern electric vehicles. It will be very soon demonstrated by Audi e-tron Quattro.
Punx0r said:It may be possible to mitigate some of the deleterious effects of such a horrendously heavy on vehicle handling, but nothing can be done to mitigate the more serious effect on vehicle energy consumption every time it accelerates.
Chalo said:Punx0r said:It may be possible to mitigate some of the deleterious effects of such a horrendously heavy on vehicle handling, but nothing can be done to mitigate the more serious effect on vehicle energy consumption every time it accelerates.
Well, some of the energy that is used to accelerate a heavy vehicle can be recouped on braking. But none of the added rolling resistance incurred due to high vehicle weight can be recovered.
Arlo1 said:Again we don't know its heavy its all PURE speculation!
billvon said:Li-ion batteries last 500 full cycles, 1000 if you baby them.Cephalotus said:A modern battery cell will last 2.000 to 5.000 full cycles.
TheBeastie said:It could be now that Elon has hands on the details of 21700 cell manufacturing that it could be this special release 200KWh roaster will have especially expensive lithium cells that have more cobalt etc in them then is typically considered financially viable, thus giving them super performance.
Cephalotus said:TheBeastie said:It could be now that Elon has hands on the details of 21700 cell manufacturing that it could be this special release 200KWh roaster will have especially expensive lithium cells that have more cobalt etc in them then is typically considered financially viable, thus giving them super performance.
My 700kg+ for 200kWh is based on 350Wh/kg for energy density of cells (which could be achievable in the future, especially for such a large pack that does not need to survive high C rates and many cycles) and the + is for the weight of the packaging which is unknown.
So yes, 1000kg or even more is a more realistic number for the entire 200kWh battery, at least before new technologies like LiS are available.
This makes building a 200kWh battery für a "sports car" even more problematic imho.
Cephalotus said:A NMC 333 automotive quality cell should last around 15 years and 5.000 cycles. Cycle life performance in NMC 622, NMC 811 and NCA is reduced, as far as I know. NCA has good calander life. LFP is quite a mixed bag, but mostly irrelevant for battery electric cars.
LTO can last more than 10.000 full cycles, but is to heavy and expensive for BEV
There are cells out with 450Wh/kg, they could be considered exotic by now, but they apparently work on more affordable automotive version, named Apolo.Pajda said:350 Wh/kg on cell level is way too optimistic in near future and especially in mass production. Realistic goal for 2020 is 300 Wh/kg. Even if there will be available such technology the car producers will sell it to customer in steps like 250, 280, 300 .. Wh/kg and between each step there will be at least one year pause
Yes, it should.Cephalotus said:A NMC 333 automotive quality cell should last around 15 years and 5.000 cycles.
Agreed.Cycle life performance in NMC 622, NMC 811 and NCA is reduced, as far as I know. NCA has good calander life. LFP is quite a mixed bag, but mostly irrelevant for battery electric cars.
LTO can last more than 10.000 full cycles, but is to heavy and expensive for BEV.
Right. In the Leaf we were talking about large format NMC cells.We are not talking about our consumer quality 18650 cells here.
You might be talking about something very different here. Batteries for auxiliary grid services (voltage/frequency stabilization) are very high power - but very low energy. They have to last thousands of cycles because they can be cycled dozens of times a week. By reducing energy density (thicker electrodes, more electrolyte, thicker separators) that can be achieved.Those batteries are already used for solar storage systems or for storage syystem in the primarey balancing market and there is usually a warranty on them (Ri and capacity) for many thousand cycles.
billvon said:Right. In the Leaf we were talking about large format NMC cells.
You might be talking about something very different here. Batteries for auxiliary grid services (voltage/frequency stabilization) are very high power - but very low energy. They have to last thousands of cycles because they can be cycled dozens of times a week. By reducing energy density (thicker electrodes, more electrolyte, thicker separators) that can be achieved.
Pajda said:The point is that you can have cell with 15 years and 5000 full cycles lifetime based on almost all known chemistries, but not with the high energy density. NCA, NMC, LFP and even LCO can be designed for this conditions but the volumetric density will be 350 Wh/l at best. If you need 700 Wh/l or more, you have to be satisfied with the life of 500 full cycles.
This particular Leaf was in coastal San Diego, an area known for its moderate temperatures.Cephalotus said:Yes the leaf cells had a Problem with high temperatures.
Everyone I've talked to who had a 2011-2015 Leaf here has had a similar problem. Some better, some worse - one guy had a range of about 25 miles after five years; he finally gave up trying to get Nissan to replace his battery and bought another car.One or a few bad examples are no proof that the Claim is wrong. A PV modul lasts 30 years+, but there have been moduls around that got defective after 1 year. So what?
If you are talking about the recent Tesla/Sonnen etc systems out there, those provide different services - load leveling/peak shifting/peak shaving and UPS functions. So they need larger capacities, and thus use different battery types. The Tesla system use 18650's - the Sonnen system uses LiFePO4.Those Megawatt battery projects that I know in detail use charging rates around 1C.
Yep. It will be good to see them in operation so we can get some real-world data. (Such systems also provide a great way to recycle automotive packs that get below 70%.)Mercedes Benz energy uses the same battery moduls for the home storage systems as in their first electric cars. They give a warranty on 5000(?) full cycles afair.
Cephalotus said:Pajda said:The point is that you can have cell with 15 years and 5000 full cycles lifetime based on almost all known chemistries, but not with the high energy density. NCA, NMC, LFP and even LCO can be designed for this conditions but the volumetric density will be 350 Wh/l at best. If you need 700 Wh/l or more, you have to be satisfied with the life of 500 full cycles.
So even more arguments against a 200kWh battery pack, isn't it?
Punx0r said:Seems like in that scenario you are paying for a lot of battery that you will never use, and have to lug around for the vehicles' lifetime.
Punx0r said:Seems like in that scenario you are paying for a lot of battery that you will never use, and have to lug around for the vehicles' lifetime.