Tesla P85D Insane Mode
- Thread starter Ch00paKabrA
- Start date
zombiess
10 MW
Punx0r said:
This is my car with me driving (3850lb race weight) on a race track with minimal prep. The 0-60mph time is ~1.9 seconds in the video. The car next to me was a 5.0 Mustang GT most likely modded as I've never seen a stock one at the race track. The 0-100mph time is just under 6.0 seconds (The 660' time was ~6.5 seconds @ 108mph)
[youtube]7SuqOsovUqw[/youtube]
Track numbers and driving on the street are completely different worlds. Once you get fast on a sticky surface, AWD becomes a hinderence with it's extra weight and no additional traction benefit since on launch the front end is often in the air an inch or two. On the street with every day driving, AWD is superior for traction. I have had many issues spinning the tires from a roll at 60mph (rolling burn out). I've been in a high 9sec Evo and it to spun at 60mph. Sigh, I miss playing with cars.
I want to build a stupid fast electric something.
After just getting back from an extended trip to Southern Europe I would say that large luxury cars are relatively rare in general. I think for Tesla it is too new to make a judgment in Europe. I understand sales in Scandanavia have been brisk, largely encouraged by impressive tax breaks. But the UK right hand drive version is brand new, and sales efforts in other areas appear to have just started. I did see a few Model S sedans when we drove through Monaco, and we happened to be at the hotel in aix en Provence when the Provence Tesla store was hosting a party - with about seven new Teslas in front of the hotel...yes, I did mooch another test drive 
Their South of France Tesla store has only just stood up in the last six months, so I think it may be premature to declare their marketing effort a failure. But, I would tend to agree with you that it's about time they get on the airwaves with a real advertising/marketing budget..."it sells itself" only goes so far.
One thing about being an early adopter (which includes anyone on this site) in the most forward leaning tech state in the most forward leaning tech country is that sometimes we need to be patient for the rest of the world to catch up.
B
Their South of France Tesla store has only just stood up in the last six months, so I think it may be premature to declare their marketing effort a failure. But, I would tend to agree with you that it's about time they get on the airwaves with a real advertising/marketing budget..."it sells itself" only goes so far.One thing about being an early adopter (which includes anyone on this site) in the most forward leaning tech state in the most forward leaning tech country is that sometimes we need to be patient for the rest of the world to catch up.
B
zombiess
10 MW
I see Telsa model S's almost every day I drive around the Ventura, CA area. Lots of different ones and some local owners. Kind of surprising to me given what the purchase price is, but then again this is the USA, where the norm is being financed up to your eyeballs + more. $100k for a car on a 80k/yr salary, just sign here. 'merica!
That kind of financing is crazy...but maybe it indicates that the banks think the Tesla is a good long term investment (even if the guy who is over leveraged defaults, they will still make money when they sell it) with unlimited warranties and the ability to swap batteries and the entire drivetrain in a few hours, why not?
Full disclosure, I have an 85D ordered and I am seriously considering upgrading to P85D...am I nuts?
b
Full disclosure, I have an 85D ordered and I am seriously considering upgrading to P85D...am I nuts?
b
The fingers
10 TW
Bryan said:
Thanks for the video, Zombiess, that's certainly sprightly off the line...
Bryan, I'm much more familiar with Northern than Southern Europe, but your comment about a lack of large luxury cars surprises me. There is a scale difference between the U.S. and rest-of-world concept of a "large" car, but looking at Model S size cars I would have thought there would be plenty of equivalents from Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Lexus, Jaguar etc.
Tesla are new, but that isn't unique to them. It's a supercar, but koenigsegg sprang from nowhere to an almost household name. At the very opposite end of the market Dacia seem to have done the same.
Tesla will have an uphill battle exporting to the world. I'm not that knowledgeable on cars, but I can't think of any U.S. car that was successful outside the U.S. Design priorities for a car are often different for the two regions, which goes back to my argument about Tesla needing to make the effort to better understand the markets they are targeting. I think they have a better chance than any other U.S. manufacturer because being a performance E.V. the product is almost unique and the format of largeish luxury performance saloon/sedan is already widely established and accepted.
There is a long-existing stereotype that U.S. has only long, straight roads and the cars cannot go around a corner without falling over. Any sporty U.S. export has always faced this problem, with many people dismissing them out of hand. Tesla face that problem as well as the EV stigma. They're going to have to work hard to demonstrate the qualities of their product to a sceptical audience, hence my assertion that they would probably do well to get some coverage putting in impressive laptimes and demonstrating not just parity with ICE sports cars, but the advantages electric drive offers. That is, however, just my interpretation.
Another stereotype of U.S. cars is that they are cheap (lots of horsepower for your money), but of very poor build quality. Tesla should be OK there as the cars look well engineered and screwed together. It might be something they come up against in the future if the plan to build a low-cost budget EV comes to fruition.
Tongue-in-cheek?
Bryan, I'm much more familiar with Northern than Southern Europe, but your comment about a lack of large luxury cars surprises me. There is a scale difference between the U.S. and rest-of-world concept of a "large" car, but looking at Model S size cars I would have thought there would be plenty of equivalents from Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Lexus, Jaguar etc.
Tesla are new, but that isn't unique to them. It's a supercar, but koenigsegg sprang from nowhere to an almost household name. At the very opposite end of the market Dacia seem to have done the same.
Tesla will have an uphill battle exporting to the world. I'm not that knowledgeable on cars, but I can't think of any U.S. car that was successful outside the U.S. Design priorities for a car are often different for the two regions, which goes back to my argument about Tesla needing to make the effort to better understand the markets they are targeting. I think they have a better chance than any other U.S. manufacturer because being a performance E.V. the product is almost unique and the format of largeish luxury performance saloon/sedan is already widely established and accepted.
There is a long-existing stereotype that U.S. has only long, straight roads and the cars cannot go around a corner without falling over. Any sporty U.S. export has always faced this problem, with many people dismissing them out of hand. Tesla face that problem as well as the EV stigma. They're going to have to work hard to demonstrate the qualities of their product to a sceptical audience, hence my assertion that they would probably do well to get some coverage putting in impressive laptimes and demonstrating not just parity with ICE sports cars, but the advantages electric drive offers. That is, however, just my interpretation.
Another stereotype of U.S. cars is that they are cheap (lots of horsepower for your money), but of very poor build quality. Tesla should be OK there as the cars look well engineered and screwed together. It might be something they come up against in the future if the plan to build a low-cost budget EV comes to fruition.
Bryan said:
Tongue-in-cheek?
johnrobholmes
10 MW
The one thing I keep seeing when people compare the model S to other cars, they tend to compare two door sports cars to the S which is nothing more than a family sedan that happens to have some power. Sure you can get overall better performance with a 918 (with $730,000 more cost) or a 911, but it's going to be hard to fit groceries in and get over a speed bump! And when the wife need to take it out? Practically any $100,000 sports car will be extremely difficult to drive for the average non-enthusiast, not to mention to cabin noise that is only fun when you are into that sort of thing. Comparing toys to a useful vehicle is not how people make purchases! But when Tesla does revamp the Roadster we will have a better mark of comparison for the sport car in whatever price range they hit.
The things that really sold me on why Tesla will succeed and change the industry with the Model S:
Fast enough for the average person to be wow'd
Very easy to drive in traffic considering the torque on tap, I would not think twice about letting the wife behind the wheel
Roomy, plenty of storage, practical car
No blind spots, great visual position in the cab, very confidence inspiring of knowing your surroundings
nation wide charging stations on the highway system
I think the real question of the companies ability to take hold worldwide is to compare against a car like the Mercedes S500 or s550 series which is similar in comfort, size, price, and kinda close in power. My mother has owned a few of these sedans because of how often she used to drive from Missouri to Georgia, it was a decision based on safety and comfort. Her first one purchased was before curtain airbags were available on many cars, but the S500 had them. By driving a few Mercedes' and the Tesla I can say the Tesla is more stable and easier to drive, as well as being far more comfortable at highway speeds because of the reduced noise and vehicle vibration. But add up the expense of keeping a Mercedes running over its life (parts and service are ridiculous), on top of the fuel, and it would be a dumb choice to select one today over the Model S unless long highway travels in areas without Supercharger stations were the prime need.
The things that really sold me on why Tesla will succeed and change the industry with the Model S:
Fast enough for the average person to be wow'd
Very easy to drive in traffic considering the torque on tap, I would not think twice about letting the wife behind the wheel
Roomy, plenty of storage, practical car
No blind spots, great visual position in the cab, very confidence inspiring of knowing your surroundings
nation wide charging stations on the highway system
I think the real question of the companies ability to take hold worldwide is to compare against a car like the Mercedes S500 or s550 series which is similar in comfort, size, price, and kinda close in power. My mother has owned a few of these sedans because of how often she used to drive from Missouri to Georgia, it was a decision based on safety and comfort. Her first one purchased was before curtain airbags were available on many cars, but the S500 had them. By driving a few Mercedes' and the Tesla I can say the Tesla is more stable and easier to drive, as well as being far more comfortable at highway speeds because of the reduced noise and vehicle vibration. But add up the expense of keeping a Mercedes running over its life (parts and service are ridiculous), on top of the fuel, and it would be a dumb choice to select one today over the Model S unless long highway travels in areas without Supercharger stations were the prime need.
Ch00paKabrA
10 kW
johnrobholmes said:
Over the course of a Model S's life, the battery will have to be replaced. I don't know how much it costs but it may be comparable the fuel costs in the lifespan of the battery pack. I know we are talking about 1000s of $$$ for each.
@ the members who bitch about cars:
Tesla did it right. I read many times from some of the members who are naysayers on this thread about how they wish people would get more interested in EV products. Tesla is doing this while they are just wishing and whining. The headlines that the insane mode will generate will do more to move EV into the spotlight that any clever advertising would.
In addition to this, it is aimed at the younger buyer market. Wean folks off of fossil fuels while they are young and it simply becomes their "normal". The way to get the youth involved is with performance. Tesla is doing this. As these buyers age, they will become less interested in the performance aspects but buying another EV will simply be the normal thing for them to do. I believe that Tesla has a well thought out long term plan that we should all be in favor of.
For those that are bitching about the "4000 # cage" barreling down the street... Get over it. You are not going to get the kids to school on an ebike. Sometimes it makes me wonder how some supposedly smart people can be so stupid.
Chalo
100 TW
Your kids would be a lot less lazy, wasteful, destructive and useless if they learned other ways to get around.
Just sayin'.
Just sayin'.
Ohbse
10 kW
Ch00paKabrA said:
I see this quoted quite often when these cars are being discussed - it's a pretty pervasive myth that the battery will wear out and require a new one in XX miles. I would love to know where that's stated by Tesla? The only accurate figure is an estimation around cycles over time resulting in lost capacity, something like 100,000 miles to 80% of original has been mentioned. This doesn't mean the pack is frocked, it just means you can only go 80% of the original range - which is still something like 3x the range that the average person requires on a daily basis. The nature of NCA chemistry cells leads to a gradual decline to 80% of capacity and then degradation actually slows/plateaus. Performance will also degrade over that period, the pack will sag further under high load, but you're still going to be blasting past the vast majority of even high performance vehicles. You might manage another 100,000 miles before you get to 70% of original capacity. At this point does it really matter? How far do you need to go? At this point you would be replacing/rebuilding the engine or transmission in many ICE vehicles at substantial expense, yet we don't amortise the cost of a new transmission over the 200,000 miles - why bother with batteries.
As far as I can see the battery pack is a lifetime component, however you will have the option of an OEM supplied upgrade package in the future, potentially extending range, improving performance. What's not to like?
P85D is massively impressive. Without a doubt the quickest car on real streets a mere human could actually purchase in a lifetime of effort. Obviously there are quicker modified vehicles, but I don't think any with the same level of out of the box performance, definitely none with the level of practicality built into the model S. 7 seats, huge cargo, partial autonomy, low running costs.
I won't be buying another ICE car, I will probably purchase a Model 3 once they're available in New Zealand. Bring it on.
Ch00paKabrA
10 kW
Ohbse said:
Good Points.
In the past, EV cars were ugly. I know a lot of people love their Priuses but let's face it. Its styling was not what I would consider mainstream. Tesla has done something that no other company had the sense to do. He is competing with luxury cars in every category; styling, comfort, performance, and amenities. If I was in the market for a Lexus or Mercedes, the Tesla is a no brainer. Insane mode is simply a bonus.
Arvicola Terrestris
100 W
Punx0r said:
I think you are right!
By the way something is happening now, the fleet administrators (cars) in the municipals are buying electric cars now, not because they have to, but because over the last years they have found out it is cheaper over time, larger investment but less fuel cost and repairs.
dingoEsride
100 kW
100volts+ said:
fast cars bikes etc have been around for yonks, there will always be a tragedy with almost any activity but most will use the power responsibly
Oddly enough in Southern Europe it seemed like every BMW, Audi, Merc that blasted past us on the highway was a station wagon :?
But still, not as many large luxury cars as you would think, but as you say, there is a scale issue when you are driving in very small Euro city streets. Also, I think the gas guzzler taxes in Italy deter people from buying large cars and supercars (on second thought, not sure if it is a gas tax or a luxury tax - if the former it may help Tesla) and the economy is not so great there now.
I think John Rob has it right - the market for the Model S is against the Audi A7/A8, Mercedes S500, BMW 7 series etc... and you better believe they are starting to take a bite out of luxury sales in CA. I think it will be interesting to see how the RHD version catches on in the UK.
At the same time, I think the BMW i3 is really going to drive more interest in pure electric at a scale that is perfect for Euro city driving, the same for the Tesla model 3 whenever we see it.
As for a little bit of Euro snobbery re. "American cars are good in straight lines..." - I would recommend you take a look at the Chevy Corvette Z06, which will hang with anything out of Maranello for less than a third the price. As relates to "cheap interiors" you could buy a new Corvette, gut the interior and purchase a custom interior company to build you a new interior for less than price of a new Ferrari
You also may want to google the Nurburgring lap times of the new Corvette Z06 and the new Camaro...between Tesla and the supercars coming out of Detroit it makes me proud to be an American IMHO we are living the golden age of horsepower as the ICE makers do everything they can to fend off electric.
What we saw tons of in Europe were scooters - they are everywhere - same for Asia. If I was in the two wheel electric business I would be focused more on electric scooters than anything else.
But still, not as many large luxury cars as you would think, but as you say, there is a scale issue when you are driving in very small Euro city streets. Also, I think the gas guzzler taxes in Italy deter people from buying large cars and supercars (on second thought, not sure if it is a gas tax or a luxury tax - if the former it may help Tesla) and the economy is not so great there now.
I think John Rob has it right - the market for the Model S is against the Audi A7/A8, Mercedes S500, BMW 7 series etc... and you better believe they are starting to take a bite out of luxury sales in CA. I think it will be interesting to see how the RHD version catches on in the UK.
At the same time, I think the BMW i3 is really going to drive more interest in pure electric at a scale that is perfect for Euro city driving, the same for the Tesla model 3 whenever we see it.
As for a little bit of Euro snobbery re. "American cars are good in straight lines..." - I would recommend you take a look at the Chevy Corvette Z06, which will hang with anything out of Maranello for less than a third the price. As relates to "cheap interiors" you could buy a new Corvette, gut the interior and purchase a custom interior company to build you a new interior for less than price of a new Ferrari
You also may want to google the Nurburgring lap times of the new Corvette Z06 and the new Camaro...between Tesla and the supercars coming out of Detroit it makes me proud to be an American
IMHO we are living the golden age of horsepower as the ICE makers do everything they can to fend off electric. What we saw tons of in Europe were scooters - they are everywhere - same for Asia. If I was in the two wheel electric business I would be focused more on electric scooters than anything else.
There are some good points being made in this thread
If a model S pack will really last 20yrs/200,000 miles then it becomes a bit of a non-issue. Although people may dislike the idea of a car that gets slower every day you own it due to increased pack IR.
Yes, there are some U.S. sports cars with impressive 'Ring lap times. Frankly, I think that's further evidence to my original point that Tesla needs to be doing likewise
In pointing out what I see as obstacles to widespread success for Tesla, these aren't my personal opinions, but what I believe to be the wider public perception. There's no point being defensive in response I'm not a PR guy but I know the one thing that would completely sabotage Tesla worldwide would be American chauvinism. I don't want to put too fine a point on it, but trying to sell something on the principle of "it's American so it's better" may work great domestically, but will kill it stone-cold dead anywhere else.
If a model S pack will really last 20yrs/200,000 miles then it becomes a bit of a non-issue. Although people may dislike the idea of a car that gets slower every day you own it due to increased pack IR.
Yes, there are some U.S. sports cars with impressive 'Ring lap times. Frankly, I think that's further evidence to my original point that Tesla needs to be doing likewise
In pointing out what I see as obstacles to widespread success for Tesla, these aren't my personal opinions, but what I believe to be the wider public perception. There's no point being defensive in response
I'm not a PR guy but I know the one thing that would completely sabotage Tesla worldwide would be American chauvinism. I don't want to put too fine a point on it, but trying to sell something on the principle of "it's American so it's better" may work great domestically, but will kill it stone-cold dead anywhere else.
Chalo
100 TW
Punx0r said:Yes, there are some U.S. sports cars with impressive 'Ring lap times. Frankly, I think that's further evidence to my original point that Tesla needs to be doing likewise
Um, no they don't. Real people (even idiots) don't drive real cars that way on real streets. They just don't. (We're all much better off because they don't.) Nurburgring lap times are as relevant to most people's experience of cars as Bonneville flying mile times, or performance in Antarctic conditions. You might as well say that Tesla should build their car to win the Dakar rally.
Hillhater
100 TW
I would like to see the evidence of that.Arvicola Terrestris said:
Repair costs are mostly accident repairs, why would they differ for an electric vehicle ?...indeed, simply being a rare vehicle will make them more expensive to repair, ......and don't even mention the issues/cost for tesla repairs !
Servicing/maintenance is going to be interesting...
Yes there is no complex, multi component, ICE to service, but what are the actual costs of that anyway ?
Most new cars come with fixed price servicing ..(2-$300 per year ?) which includes anything the ICE may need, ....so I find it hard to believe a Leaf, BMW i3, let alone a Tesla, could be maintained for less, especially considering the increased levels of expertise required.
The big fleet operators ..Rental, and Lease companies, have little concern over fuel costs, the driver/operator pays that !
Arvicola Terrestris
100 W
Hillhater said:
I haven't mentioned anything about rental or leasing company, it is obvious that they don't care about the fuel cost.
I repeat myself: " the fleet administrators (cars) in the municipals"
And repair cost is more then accident repairs, it's oil, brake pads, air filters, spark plugs, fuel filters, oil filters. The electric car group at my university reports that their biggest expense is polishing brake discs (because of regen. breaking, they are hardly used and gets rusty)
Here is a link for an 2014 article about the subject.
http://politiken.dk/forbrugogliv/biler/ECE2380162/kommuner-giver-elbiler-nyt-liv/
And for those that can't read Danish, Google have translated the first 25% of the article:
And this article is from 2012 in an Engineering newspaper:
http://ing.dk/artikel/flere-og-flere-kommuner-korer-i-elbiler-130817
And again a part translated from the article:
There's also likely to be tax advantages that save money. In the UK if you have a company car you pay tax on it's value like it was part of your salary (as it's "payment in kind") and the rate of tax depends on the CO2 emission rating for the car. Electrics get a significantly reduced rate.
Purely as a thought-experiment: Reviewers state that if driven hard, the Model S enters reduced power mode after 2-3 minutes due to suspected over-heating of the battery. If it is indeed the battery at fault, the problem will only get worse as the pack ages. It will enter reduced power sooner and for longer, making the car slower for extended spirited driving. Will it matter to 99% of people 99% of the time? Probably not, but as I keep opining, it is normal for people to make irrational decisions. They might not like the idea of it, because they might think it might someday hamper their excellent driving ability. Much like they might select a diving watch good for immersion to 200 metres, when in all likelihood the deepest it would ever go is to the bottom of the toilet bowl.
Leaving aside the issue that you hate cars, please refer to literally all of my previous points Perceptions matter far more than reality to the majority of people and IMO you need to satisfy those to be a hit. For most people a car purchase is not an unemotional decision.
Anyway, there are filter-down effects of a car that is able to drive quickly on a track: 1) a reduction in ride comfort 2) tyres, braking, suspension and stability systems that are far more capable than is required for 99.99% of the driving you do. However, for that 0.01% of the time when something goes wrong, you have a safety net. Some people argue that it's ridiculous that a car should have a top speed two or three times that of the fastest speed limit in a country. In the UK that's 70mph. That's easily countered by taking a drive in an old car that was designed for a top speed of 70mph and attempting an emergency stop.
gogo said:
Purely as a thought-experiment: Reviewers state that if driven hard, the Model S enters reduced power mode after 2-3 minutes due to suspected over-heating of the battery. If it is indeed the battery at fault, the problem will only get worse as the pack ages. It will enter reduced power sooner and for longer, making the car slower for extended spirited driving. Will it matter to 99% of people 99% of the time? Probably not, but as I keep opining, it is normal for people to make irrational decisions. They might not like the idea of it, because they might think it might someday hamper their excellent driving ability. Much like they might select a diving watch good for immersion to 200 metres, when in all likelihood the deepest it would ever go is to the bottom of the toilet bowl.
Chalo said:Punx0r said:Yes, there are some U.S. sports cars with impressive 'Ring lap times. Frankly, I think that's further evidence to my original point that Tesla needs to be doing likewise
Um, no they don't. Real people (even idiots) don't drive real cars that way on real streets. They just don't. (We're all much better off because they don't.) Nurburgring lap times are as relevant to most people's experience of cars as Bonneville flying mile times, or performance in Antarctic conditions. You might as well say that Tesla should build their car to win the Dakar rally.
Leaving aside the issue that you hate cars, please refer to literally all of my previous points
Perceptions matter far more than reality to the majority of people and IMO you need to satisfy those to be a hit. For most people a car purchase is not an unemotional decision. Anyway, there are filter-down effects of a car that is able to drive quickly on a track: 1) a reduction in ride comfort 2) tyres, braking, suspension and stability systems that are far more capable than is required for 99.99% of the driving you do. However, for that 0.01% of the time when something goes wrong, you have a safety net. Some people argue that it's ridiculous that a car should have a top speed two or three times that of the fastest speed limit in a country. In the UK that's 70mph. That's easily countered by taking a drive in an old car that was designed for a top speed of 70mph and attempting an emergency stop.
