There's a new sheriff in town (new pics on p5)

[Thud]

John,
Supension set up is as subjective as Art. The ideal set up has you using full travel in normal use...that means different things per application.

Once you know the variable settings & how they affect the chariteistics, then you can make fine tuning adjustments to maximise the performance.....but for a road bike not doing drops & other off roading nonsence, set a pressure that is comfortable for your normal use & get your base line. Presure up if your hauling a heavy load.

as long as you have dampening on the bike & not po-Going up & down the road your fine.

The worst thing I see happen to shock absorbers is inactivity.

(& for drag racing, I would stiffin the rear end so it doesn't colapse when the weight transfers to the rear of the bike no need to worry about wheel contact through the rip rap on a paved launch area)

 

[MadRhino]

.. It was my understanding that pressure was really to adjust the ride height when loaded, with the goal to put the shock at about half travel when you're on the bike, so the wheel can move up or down for holes or bumps...

Air pressure affects the overall performance of the shock, and the sag is only a starting point for tuning it. Put a zip tie on it to see how low it will plunge during your ride. The travel should be adjusted to 2/3 of the course in average usage, so it has the last third of the travel left for unusual hard bumps and drops. You leave this zip tie on it, so you always have a reference of the shock travel after your rides. If you notice that sometimes the shock compress a tad more than 3/4 on hard bumps, your setting is about right. As Thud said, you want to use the travel of the shock as much as possible, without being at risk of bottoming, according to the terrain that you ride on.

If you want a shock to operate with lower air pressure, you can install a volume limiter inside the can, they are available in various sizes. Usually, with a hub motor in the wheel the perfect setting would be close to max recommended air pressure of the shock and damping adjuster almost completely unscrewed (set to max), unless you ride on very smooth surface. As I said previously, a shock operating with very low air pressure is more likely to fail due to bottom risk. When you store the bike for any extended period, you can lower the pressure in your suspension, although I never did and this caused no problem.

Fox publish online manuals for all of their shocks, with adequate tuning procedure explained. This is important if your shock is of a model that has many adjustment options, for tuning those may be tricky. When a shock is very tuneable, with 2 air cans an 3 knobs to play with, one has to understand its functions and get familiar with the proper tuning procedure.

 

[John in CR]

MadRhino and Thud,
Thanks for sharing all that.

Now my biggest problem will be taking the bike out of service for mods. The main reason I didn't weld the rear brake caliper mount before this test period is that I know me, and all the great mods I want to do including beautification probably wouldn't get done for a year. With no rear brake I'm force to take it down.

 

[Ykick]

'got one of those Fox shocks too and found this thread by Manitu very helpful for service tips/instructions:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=27149&hilit=+fox+float

 

[etard]

John,
I have a low budget coil shock if you want me to send it down to you. PM me if interested. I actually prefer the feel of a coil shock over air. The main advantage with air is the lightweight and easy tuneability, but a coil shock might be better on your bike with the various mounting points and might give you a little piece of mind. Although, when an air shock fails, it will usually will close all the way and you could still ride it home and even rebuild it good as new (this happened to me).

I like amberwolf's idea of the brake/ lockout. You could use this lever for mechanical disk brakes:

http://www.paulcomp.com/duplexlever.html

Attach one cable to the lockout and one to your brake, I almost want to try this on my bike!

 

[John in CR]

Are the lockouts on DH type forks with easy switching, so the racers can easily lock the fork for better pedaling briefly on level sections, or are the lockouts on rear shocks? It's the front I need to lock.

I do like the double pull lever, though I'd want hydro. I understand the better feel of good mechanical, but all I care about is braking power and low maintenance, so hydro all the way for me, since they adjust themselves and even the cheapies work fine. With regen providing so much of my braking force, I haven't touched my brakes since January, and I do use the brakes on almost every stop or turn. That's bringing 375lbs to a halt from traffic speeds. Before regen brake assist I was replacing pads at least every six weeks, and that was with a big rear drum (no maintenance) helping too.

The only problem now is that I have to change the front disc on my daily rider, and 2 allen wrenches snapped last time I tried to remove it....any suggestions (an AL hub)?

 

[FMB42]

Try heating the hub up a bit before you attempt to remove the disc allen screws ( you can heat the hub up with a hair dryer/heat gun). Just don't heat it up for too long or get it too hot...

As for the "air or spring" shock debate: I had reservations about air shocks years ago when Fox first started making them for Moto Xers (thought for sure that they'd leak and/or suck). However, I bought a used 80' Husky 390 CR w/Fox airs and they worked out quite well (this was 1984ish). Well, some 25 years later I'm still happy running air shocks (I've got a '06 Manitou on my XC that still holds air far better than I do these days).

Anyway, I'm head over heels on that build of yours.

 

[John in CR]

Thanks FMB,

Yeah, I'm sold on air shocks too. This tiny Fox Float is performing unbelievably. Today I was in a rush and took the washboard + pothole section of our main road leaving the house with abandon after getting hit with a couple of big rain drops maybe 10min before I knew for sure real rain was coming. With rain coming any second on the way back from the store I took the sidewalk, curb drops and all when the road I needed to go left on had too much traffic both directions and I couldn't waste even seconds. I needed video of both ways, because it was the most aggressive and fun ebike ride of my 3 year career (not most pleasurable which is reserved for low tide beach riding).

I pushed it too hard though. The F%@#ing controller crapped out turning into my street. Gotta figure out a way to get the glued-in board out, but the symptoms aren't typical with no big heat in the housing and no short in the phases, so hopefully something small. If I can get it apart I have 30 real 4110's itching to climb aboard, and the controller gets ventilation. I have a feeling this one isn't a mosfet failure though. I just hope I can repair it, or repair it locally.

Now my delemma is whether or not to steal the 24 fet controller with proven high power durability and ready to go regen off of my daily rider for the Super V. Let me get on with the other needed mods before deciding, but the answer is obvious since Blue is now uber boring to ride, so a lesser controller is ok.

Luke- HELP! I need to buy one of those super controllers from you. Can we reasonably program the controller from afar? I don't need to push the limits in performance. 400 phase amps will do the trick nicely, especially if I can ramp up current over 0.5-1 sec.

 

[etard]

Impact wrench, electric preferably. I got a Dewalt 18volt impact 6 months ago and that thing drives and snaps frozen bolts and nuts like nobody's biz.

Dh racers never lock anything out, the only reason would be for more efficient pedaling, and I guess the added complexity is not worth it for that tiny little section in each run. I don't believe I have ever seen a dual crown fork with lockout, but there are some sturdy all mountain and dirtjumper forks with adjustable hieght and lockout.

You should get that front scooter brake Thud linked somewhere. I think he used it for his death race bike. Another option could be 2 mechanical disk brakes on the front. My Willow Springs race bike has a dual disk mount hub, I think it's from one of the chopper bike sites.

I will pm you about the shock when I get home John.

 

[John in CR]

Since the Sheriff is now on vacation, it's time for a new sheriff to step in and take over. Since no normal ebike hubmotor can cut the mustard, who's is going to be? Etard with his scooter hubbie, Luke with his 110mph bike, the silent lurker like who took the 2011 Death Race...? Whoever it is don't take too much time, because I do have other controllers and 2wd on my mind, so the vacation won't be long. 8)

 

[Harold in CR]

RE;Stuck bolts. Using the hair dryer might work, but, after getting things hot as possible, I would squirt some liquid wrench type release agent on and at the area where the bolt heads or washers are. You probably have corrosion, and, if you try to turn the bolt out very far, you stand a good chance of stripping the threads in the Aluminum.

After a couple times with the juice, try an electric hammer drill. It's not as aggressive as a regular impact tool. Just get the bolts to turn, then liquid then tighten a little, and repeat. This is from many years of working on Aluminum Outboard motors in Salt climate.

 

[Arlo1]

Yup heat is your friend if you have a steal bolt in aluminum you heat them both but the aluminum has a greater thermal expansion rate so it will losen on the bolt as it gets hotter! I have unseized 10s of thousands of bolts in aluminum (motorcycle mechanic) and heat is my best trick the second best is welding a nut to a broken bolt the weld will shrink and pull the bolt loose and the heat will help it come out as well! Third best is the outer bearing race trick when you weld all the way around inside the outter bearing race then the weld shrinks as it cools and the race just falls out! Ok enough rambling!

 

[mat h physics]

I agree w/ Harold, an impact wrench has a great chance of popping the head off. Have some doubt about pen lube though.
Arlo, is on the right track w/ heat.

Try my father's trick, he serviced the equipment at auto shops and service stations. Strike the head of the bolt to loosen it. Use a brass rod to help prevent deformation, esp on socket head cap screws. On a socket head cap, you can use a broken allen wrench. USE SAFETY GOGGLES, AS HAMMER AND WRENCH ARE HARDENED AND CAN SHEAR SENDING HIGH ENERGY SHRAPNEL Known more than one person to lose an eye striking a chisel w/o eye protection, and even embedded under skin from 20+ ft away.

If that fails, put the hub in the freezer to reduce the bolt temp. Using a lite torch or heat gun, heat the aluminum (I seriously doubt a hairdryer will work, not enough heat diff). A good soldier gun may even work for better control on small surface.

Should you have to resize the hole, don't drill a hardened brake rotor it will shatter the bit.

 

[John in CR]

Thanks guys. Hopefully heat does the trick, because these little brake disc bolts are way too small for impact wrenches, striking, and welding. Plus I don't have a freezer that will fit a 24" bike wheel.

 

[The Mighty Volt]

@JohnCr or LiveforPhysics.....how many watts are you guys seeing on these motors with the 20" or so wheel?? I am only seeing 2800w or so with an X5305 at 72v, how about yourselves??

 

[mat h physics]

Seriously John, take a good hammer and whack the bolt head a time or two. The vibration helps separate the surfaces. W/ the rotor in place it will be ridged enough to w/stand the impact. Just don't deform the hex hole, hence the broken allen wrench suggestion.
Pen oil won't hurt, but aluminum is soft and will "seal" off any fluid. Steel on steel has a natural molecular "fracture" to help pen.
If you have access to dry ice, it will help. Or find a friend w/ a chest freezer.

When turning the wrench, support the back side (right) to keep the forces in the rotational axis. Using rt hand, support the vertical hex shaft w/ the thumb to the right side pulling the wrench w/ the pinky, ring, index force in that order. Improper alignment of the forces maybe why you broke the wrenches in the 1st place.

Breaking a frozen bolt loose can be a real art form.

 

[Arlo1]

Yes one thing I forgot to mention shocking the bolt will help tremendously so if you smack it with a hammer it will usually loosen it that's a big reason why impact drivers work so well.

 

[hillzofvalp]

I don't know what you guys are talking about precisely, but here's something I tried recently on a caliper bolt that was torqued down too much:

get a thin cut dremel wheel and cut a notch for a flat head screw driver.. not too thick. The point of the slot is to have a good surface to impact. If you impact an stuck hex bolt then you can very quickly strip it out..

THEN: impactor + flat head bit. Got to make sure though that the flat head is snug and you press with just the right amount of force or you'll strip out the nice slot you made Basically saved my $300 fork

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Wow, great project you have going here!

Now if I could just figure out a way to make something like that legal in the US ...

Great work John, look forward to seeing it in action, and stats from the drag strip! 8)

 

[The Mighty Volt]

I just took delivery of 1 of these 1500W rated moped hubs and a rather shoddy looking 48v controller with IRF1407 Mosfets. I will try to take apart the controller and run its guts past people in the know.

Unfortunately, the delivery people may have dropped the box at some stage, as the motor rim has some damage to it.

I will try to get a photo up soon.

EDIT: Not my own photo, but this is the motor in question.

 

[John in CR]

Mighty Volt,

Excellent. Run the factory controller in stock form before modding it for higher power, so you can get a baseline performance. Be sure to include actively ventilating it in your mods. That should enable you up to fun levels, though not eye popping with those fets. 60V nominal if the caps are up to it, and double the current by coppering half the shunt length should be fun. I can't wait to see how you use it.

After blowing SuperV's big controller I was forced to do an inventory of blown controllers and find one I thought I could repair myself to put on my cargo bike, freeing up that 24fet4100 brick to install on SuperV. Heat damage, other than blown fets accounted for almost half of the failures, and 3 out of 5 of the modded factory controllers. Mostly it was melted phase wires that either shorted to each other or to caps. From now on I will ventilate any controller I take to higher power, including my one remaining 24fet that I'm going to dial up to 150A battery side in gradual increments.

Blown controllers has been the achilles heel of just about everyone's high power pursuits, but the only ventilated controller I've blown was my last remaining factory controller that I was pushing past triple the factory settings, and that occurred on the first hill I encountered after forgetting to turn the fan on. Ventilation works well, and we've been pushing a 4310 based controller at 80A for months as proof, though we really should get in there and beef up the primary wires and traces to minimize unnecessary heat, since the air blowing out of that controller is quite warm.

I successfully repaired one of my factory controllers, YAY, so I'm moving it to my daily rider which isn't fun anymore thanks to the Sheriff. It's will still get 5kw via the new and improved ventilated stock controllers. The 24fet will get dual blowers, doubled up wiring, and thickened traces. It's been dependable at 100A, so with mods, 150A should be no problemo.

I'll do a post soon about ventilated controllers.

John

 

[The Mighty Volt]

Mighty Volt,

Excellent. Run the factory controller in stock form before modding it for higher power, so you can get a baseline performance. Be sure to include actively ventilating it in your mods. That should enable you up to fun levels, though not eye popping with those fets. 60V nominal if the caps are up to it, and double the current by coppering half the shunt length should be fun. I can't wait to see how you use it.

After blowing SuperV's big controller I was forced to do an inventory of blown controllers and find one I thought I could repair myself to put on my cargo bike, freeing up that 24fet4100 brick to install on SuperV. Heat damage, other than blown fets accounted for almost half of the failures, and 3 out of 5 of the modded factory controllers. Mostly it was melted phase wires that either shorted to each other or to caps. From now on I will ventilate any controller I take to higher power, including my one remaining 24fet that I'm going to dial up to 150A battery side in gradual increments.

Blown controllers has been the achilles heel of just about everyone's high power pursuits, but the only ventilated controller I've blown was my last remaining factory controller that I was pushing past triple the factory settings, and that occurred on the first hill I encountered after forgetting to turn the fan on. Ventilation works well, and we've been pushing a 4310 based controller at 80A for months as proof, though we really should get in there and beef up the primary wires and traces to minimize unnecessary heat, since the air blowing out of that controller is quite warm.

I successfully repaired one of my factory controllers, YAY, so I'm moving it to my daily rider which isn't fun anymore thanks to the Sheriff. It's will still get 5kw via the new and improved ventilated stock controllers. The 24fet will get dual blowers, doubled up wiring, and thickened traces. It's been dependable at 100A, so with mods, 150A should be no problemo.

I'll do a post soon about ventilated controllers.

John

Thanks John.

Because the controller came with no throttle, I hooked up a 24v Ananda controller to it and immediately encountered some grinding action. The motor was drawing 15A under no load.

I test the motor with Lyens controller and there appeared to be no phase or hall issues.

Could it be that the motor will only work with the stock controller?

Unfortunately the stock controller has only a few components I can recognize, 3 phase wires, 2 power wires and the halls/throttles.

Can I put a big enough tyre on this motor to make sure it comes out at around the same circumference as a 20" BMX front wheel?

Thanks again for your support and encouragement. Ultimately I want to run this baby at 72v.

 

[John in CR]

Grinding action, just wrong wiring combo I hope. Until you are certain about correct wiring, only try small throttle pulses.

Does the axle turn with grinding, or only cogging resistance?

Don't you have a working ebike to just borrow the throttle from?

How are you doing a run test, clamping axle flats in a vise with some flat stock protecting the axle from the vise's teeth? Be careful, it ain't no puny ebike motor.

Tires, I would think so, but I'm no expert.

 

[The Mighty Volt]

Grinding action, just wrong wiring combo I hope. Until you are certain about correct wiring, only try small throttle pulses.

Does the axle turn with grinding, or only cogging resistance?

Don't you have a working ebike to just borrow the throttle from?

How are you doing a run test, clamping axle flats in a vise with some flat stock protecting the axle from the vise's teeth? Be careful, it ain't no puny ebike motor.

Tires, I would think so, but I'm no expert.

Hi John, the flat of the axle is to the flat of the vise, the teeth are OK, but I might wrap the axle just in case.

With no controller, just with a part of the axle dropped into a clamp/vise......it spins smoothly and freely by hand, no issues at all, either direction. If I spin it fast enough by hand, I get that reassuring motor "whine" sound.

I do have a working ebike to borrow a throttle from, but I don't use connectors, I always solder my wires together, braid them, solder them, heatshrink them, that way there is no issue with dodgy connections or water getting into them. Salvaging a throttle now would be a PITA, but I could do it, sure.

I might just strip off the Ananda twist-throttle, as long as it is hall-effect, thats fine.

 

[John in CR]

There are ways to hot wire the throttle wires, but I don't know of an easy one to give you good throttle resolution, and the last thing you want is a barely held motor and hitting it with big chunks of throttle trying to find the correct wiring combo.

I've posted many times the easy way to find the correct wiring, so please don't go the hard route. As long as the phase angle is correct or you have a controller that auto senses the phase angle (your motor tester tells you the phase angle of the motor halls.) Then you prove the motor works within 6 attempts, actually 5 more since you know the current one is incorrect. You'll get a good forward or reverse simply by trying either the other 5 phase combos without changing the halls, or the other 5 hall combos without changing the phases, whichever is easier. Do not change both.

You may not even decide yet which way is forward, since you might want to put the drum brake on the left. I've done it both ways, and the only trick about putting it on the left is that you have to pull the lever the clockwise. At least mine are definitely directional and if you pull the wrong way, yes the brake shoes still engage, but it has very little braking power.