Think I messed up my battery or motor, help needed

[gameofbikes]

So I installed the bbs02 and got the calibike 48V15Ah battery. I got a trunk bag for the battery and a rear racck, but the day that i put it all together I found that the wires were too short to reach each other (from motor to the discharge cables on the battery). I hooked them up anyway, the connection barely made it, and the wires were very taught (no slack at all). But I was so eager to try it out I wet for a short test ride to see if everything worked. Good news, it worked. Bad news, after a minor bump (about 30 seconds into the ride) the red wires became disconnected. I thought nothig of it. Put everything away until i could splice some extensions to solve that wire length issue. Not sure if this matters, but the wires in the battery and the wire I got from the hardware store seemed very different. THe wire from the battery had a hug enumber of very fine strands that were silver colored. THe one that I spliced in was much thicker strands that are copper colored.

I spliced in some 12AWG wire bought from the hardware store (strip ~1.5" insulation from each end, twist together, solder together, heatshrink). Hooked it all back up and the bafang system now will not turn on. Pressing the power button does nothing. The calibike battery has a little switch with an LED, but I can't remember if the LED ever came on (it doesn't now). I double checked everything and I have no idea how I did something this colossally stupid, but I noticed that I spliced the wrong colors onto the battery's discharge wires! (red to black and black to red). How on earth I did that, i have no idea. I specifically remember taking the colors and matching them up before beginning to solder, but I must have spaced out and frocked up the only thing I could have frocked up at that point. But after switching the wires back to what they should be the system still doesn't power on.

So I'm thinking either the system broke when I hit the bump and the wires disconnected, or i damaged the battery when I tried to turn the system on with the wires crossed. The latter seems more likely.

I'm not seeing any indication from the charger that the battery is "alive", though it was fully charged before i took the 30 second test ride, so should still theoretically be 99.9% charged. I don't know what the lights on the charger represent anyway, but the lights stay the same right now regardless if the battery is connected, and regardless if the battery's switch is flipped on/off.

What do you all think? I've contacted Rafe (calibike owner) with this info, and ordered a 2nd battery from him (would be great to own a spare anyway, if I can get this first one working again). But it seems like he is a hard person to get a hold of based on feedback I've read about people trying to get help from him. What are some basic diagnostics I should run to narrow down the problem? What tools will I need for the test(s)? Please be as detailed as possible, as I haven't taken an electronics course before, and am pretty new to electronics and motors. I'm willing to take the battery apart to test things, find out if the BMS is broken, etc, with your guidance.

UPDATE:
Feb 02, 2015
I contacted Rafe, the guy who runs calibike.com and explained the situation with my battery and included a link to this thread. Literally, within 30 seconds of me hitting send, I received a phone call from him. I really appreciate that very fast response from him.

Basically he is going to send me a new BMS and new heatshrink sleeving, and also a link to a fuse that he recommends I install between the battery pack and my motor/controller. He said that he sent an email to owners of his battery with info about the fuse, but I never got it. I don't know if I ever provided my email address while ordering the battery so I wouldn't fault him for that. But it might be a good idea for him to post info about the fuse on his website.

Anyway, this is good news to me. I will probably come back here again seeking advice on replacing the BMS. Rafe said that I will have to solder 3 wires, which I don't think should be a problem. If anyone reading is in the Bay Area and would like to help me out in person when the time comes, i'll be happy to buy you lunch and/or a 6-pack of your favorite beverage! (PM me).

 

[amberwolf]

I double checked everything and I have no idea how I did something this colossally stupid, but I noticed that I spliced the wrong colors onto the battery's discharge wires! (red to black and black to red).

When you reverse polarity like that, several things can happen:

--blown fuses in battery or wiring (if any)
--tripped circuit breakers (if any)
--blown FETS in BMS inside battery (not likely) or controller (possible)
--blown capacitors in controller (possible, even likely)
--melted or desoldered shunts in controller

or other things less easy to find and fix.

First thing is to use your multimeter to test the battery output voltage, as is often done in various battery test threads (you can look up many of them to get instructions).

If the battery doesn't output any voltage, you'll need to check it's fuses, circuit breakers, wiring, etc., to see if anything is damaged. If so, we can help from there.

If it outputs normal voltage, then the problem is either in your wires past that point or in the controller.

If it doesn't output voltage *and* the fuses/etc are ok, there's something wrong inside the battery somewhere and we'll need to work out what that is.

 

[gameofbikes]

My multimeter arrives Friday. Till then...

 

[d8veh]

It's very unlikely that you've done any damage to the battery other than maybe a blown fuse. More likely will be damage to the controller, which is potted, so not easy to repair. Hopefully, a fuse blew before any damage was done. In the worst case, you'll need a new controller that costs $80 from Em3ev.com.

 

[amberwolf]

According to a post in a group buy thread (now self-deleted according to the logs) by Tomjasz, those may not be available from EM3EV anymore except for warranty repairs/etc for those that purchased directly from EM3EV.

 

[dnmun]

would not have damaged the pack. if the battery pack had a BMS then the current surge into the controller when he reversed polarity should shut off the BMS so the damage to the controller may be limited.....

wait for him to buy a DVM before doing anything else.

 

[gameofbikes]

How should I test the battery once my digital meter arrives? Do I just plug it in series to the battery's discharge wires? Do I need a load hooked up to the battery as part of the test? Details please.

I'm hoping it's just a damaged part on the battery, like a fuse or BMS that I can replace.

 

[d8veh]

Put your meter on 200V DC, switch on the battery (if it has a switch) and stick your two probes into the connector, terminals or whatever you have. You don't need (or want) anything connected to the battery.

 

[gameofbikes]

OK, I got the meter and tested the battery. I got the Innova 3320, and set it to DCV (auto-ranging up to 600V). Whent he battery is switched on, the voltage reads 48.6V. When the switch is off, it's 40.2V.

Does this look like the battery is OK? What should I do now, is there something on the BBS02 I should test?

 

[dnmun]

can you charge the battery? does the charger turn on? it should charge to 54V+. i am not familiar with the controller but you should look for the 5V between red and Black on the throttle plug.

 

[gameofbikes]

I think the battery already was fully charged before my short test ride. The ride was only about 20 seconds long so it should be fully charged. I charged it a full day with the battery in the on position, and then one day in the off position (wasn't sure which switch position was what at the time).

The charger does turn on, and there are two lights, a red and one green. Both are on when I plug in the charger, and also when the battery is hooked to it. When I first got the battery, before charging it, both lights were red. Eventually, after several hours of charging the charger moved to red and green both on, and has stayed that way since. I have no idea what the light patterns mean.

 

[d8veh]

OK, I got the meter and tested the battery. I got the Innova 3320, and set it to DCV (auto-ranging up to 600V). Whent he battery is switched on, the voltage reads 48.6V. When the switch is off, it's 40.2V.

Does this look like the battery is OK? What should I do now, is there something on the BBS02 I should test?

Looks OK to me, but not fully charged.

 

[gameofbikes]

OK, I got the meter and tested the battery. I got the Innova 3320, and set it to DCV (auto-ranging up to 600V). Whent he battery is switched on, the voltage reads 48.6V. When the switch is off, it's 40.2V.

Does this look like the battery is OK? What should I do now, is there something on the BBS02 I should test?

Looks OK to me, but not fully charged.

I looked up what the lights on the charger mean, and when both red and green LED's are on it means the battery is fully charged. When it's Red/Red, it means it's charging. The lights are Red/Green right now, which makes sense because I charged the battery for a few days before the first time I used it.

The output voltage of the charger is 53.4Vdc, is this what voltage my battery should be at when fully charged? Or is the high voltage cutoff determined by something else (if so, what?)?

The battery voltage should be higher than 48V, so does this plus the fact that the charger thinks the battery is fully charged indicate something is wrong with the battery? What else should I check?

My 2nd battery will get here Tuesday, so I'll be able to use that to determine if there is a problem with the motor or controller. But I'd still like to try to troubleshoot and repair the broken battery (assuming it's broken).

 

[wesnewell]

Fill in your profile location. There may be someone local that knows what they are doing that will stop by and evaluate the problem.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=66302

 

[dnmun]

i just did not understand why you ordered another battery without fixing this one first.

did you measure the voltage on the output of the charger?

it should charge your battery when you plug in because your battery is not fully charged.

 

[gameofbikes]

I was going to eventually order a 2nd one anyway, to have as a backup in case something goes wrong with the first, or if i need to make a 2nd or 3rd trip to campus in the same day and don't have time to charge the 1st battery. That's why I ordered the 2nd one.

I was going to wait till the summer to get a 2nd one, but class has started and I need to get the bike working ASAP.

 

[gameofbikes]

Fill in your profile location. There may be someone local that knows what they are doing that will stop by and evaluate the problem.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=66302

Done. I'm in Oakland, CA

 

[gameofbikes]

i just did not understand why you ordered another battery without fixing this one first.

did you measure the voltage on the output of the charger?

it should charge your battery when you plug in because your battery is not fully charged.

The weird thing is that according to the lights on the charger, it's done charging. And I charged the battery for about 2 full days, and saw the light pattern on the ccharger change from "charging" to "charged" during that time, so that is consistent with the battery being fully charged. The battery was only used for about 20 seconds after that, and i've been charging it more since then just in case. Yet the meter now says the battery is 48.6V. Could this mean that something is wrong with the battery pack?

How to measure charger output? Do I put the terminals on the + and - prongs of the charger's battery connector while the charger is on? It's impossible to do this while it's connected to the battery, which is fine right?

And the charger has a 3rd prong. Do i need to take any measurements involving that 3rd prong? I can just measure by putting the red probe to the (+) prong, and black probe to the (-) prong?

 

[dnmun]

i found on the calibike battery i bot used that there was no balancing network in the BMS. you may have one like that and you cannot charge because there is now a cell so far outa balance that the BMS will not allow the charger to charge it. the 53V is too low for charging the 13S limn2o4.

if you can open the end where the BMSs is located and post up good pictures then we may be able to investigate.

you should not buy another one of these batteries imo.

 

[wesnewell]

Nominal voltage on a 13s li-ion pack is 48.1V (13x3.7). That's about a 20% charge. A fully charged 13s pack is 54.6V (13x4.2). So there's either a problem with the battery pack, your charger, or your meter. Make sure your meter has a good battery in it, otherwise you will get erroneous readings from it. Once you know your meter is reading the correct voltage, proceed from there.

 

[gameofbikes]

i found on the calibike battery i bot used that there was no balancing network in the BMS. you may have one like that and you cannot charge because there is now a cell so far outa balance that the BMS will not allow the charger to charge it. the 53V is too low for charging the 13S limn2o4.

if you can open the end where the BMSs is located and post up good pictures then we may be able to investigate.

you should not buy another one of these batteries imo.

Didn't the owner of calibike reply to your thread and state that it was using a BMS that *did* have balancing? I don't know enough to understand if that thread was conclusively settled, but it appeared as if Rafe made the claim that balancing was present, and that others agreed his claim was credible? I could be wrong though.

 

[dnmun]

yes, someone else presented a picture of a BMS that was on one of the calibike batteries and it had a balancing network.

but mine did not.

mr rafe determined that i was wrong because he had a degree in EE and i did not.

i only took the junior and senior level classes and later grad school level classes in EE but i never did get a degree in EE like mr rafe. instead i got my MS degree in solid state and nuclear physics.

so that sure was proof of how it had a balancing network.

 

[gameofbikes]

Just measured again after 4 more hours of charging (even though according to the charger, the battery is fully charged), the battery is still 48.6V. The output of the charger is 54.6V. I wrote 53.4V above as the spec for the charger's output but that was a typo, the charger says 54.6V -- matching what I measured with the multi-meter.

I will probably be opening up the battery later today, the side where the wires are coming out from first. I'm assuming that's where the BMS also is? And when I want to eventually put it back together, what can i use to replace the thick blue plastic shrink wrap?

 

[gameofbikes]

yes, someone else presented a picture of a BMS that was on one of the calibike batteries and it had a balancing network.

but mine did not.

mr rafe determined that i was wrong because he had a degree in EE and i did not.

i only took the junior and senior level classes and later grad school level classes in EE but i never did get a degree in EE like mr rafe. instead i got my MS degree in solid state and nuclear physics.

so that sure was proof of how it had a balancing network.

Ah that makes sense. When did you purchase the one without the network? Hopefully that's just something that was missing from older batteries? I'll post pictures later today.

 

[dnmun]

i did not buy a battery from mr rafe. i bot it used from another guy. i have no way to know what you have because there are no pictures.