Trouble diagnosing controller problem.

But people should really be explaining why....
..
So can anybody explain how I can achieve this? One thing I find on this forum is that many people are able to give their opinion, but rarely back this opinion up with real knowledge. And they seem to know everything but are unable to answer the simple questions.

... if you cant help then dont..

Could be that your wording in the quote indicated that
1. You have the right to be fed with answers and we have the obligation to feed you.
2. You think we lack real knowledge.

A nice tone and showing willingness to learn goes a long way when one wants help. You got incorrect advice from people that didn’t know what they were talking about. I tried to help you with this.
 
larsb said:
But people should really be explaining why....
..
So can anybody explain how I can achieve this? One thing I find on this forum is that many people are able to give their opinion, but rarely back this opinion up with real knowledge. And they seem to know everything but are unable to answer the simple questions.

Could be that your wording in the quote indicated that
1. You have the right to be fed with answers and we have the obligation to feed you.
2. You think we lack real knowledge.

A nice tone and showing willingness to learn goes a long way when one wants help.
This is now going into the politics of language and interpretation... You have taken what I said out if context.

The sad fact is I work 16 hours a day, I study 4 hours a night. So if I'm lucky I get 4 hours sleep a day. So I apologize if I have come across in a way you don't appreciate.

I just want someone to help me by explaining the basics of how I can achieve my goal of rewinding the motor to be able to give lots of torque.

I know that motors are wound in various ways to achieve this.. 3.5T... 5T... So for someone with exceptional knowledge in this area I'm sure it's not so difficult to explain it in layman's terms..

"""
Using x.xxmm thickness of wire with 5T will achieve xyz.
"""

When I do have the time I will be learning and reading more and more to be able to learn what I need to know in the future. I'm far from stupid and do have the capacity to learn about this subject, what I don't have is the time! A few people have given opinions without information and other have told me I'm too lazy!!!

The simple fact is that I need to rewind my motor, I know it's possible to run these motors at the sort of power I want to achieve and if I had the basics laid out in front of me then I'd be well on my way to achieving my goal by now.

I thought this forum was a place to ask questions and get help. But it seems it's more about telling folk to learn for themselves.. it's not my fault that the information is there but difficult to find.. I simply don't have the time to sift through a post with over 2000 comments to find the one bit of info I need.

Of course I want to learn otherwise I wouldn't be here asking .. and also if I had the money to buy a new motor I would. I'm not just being lazy.. and I really don't like the implication that I am.



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if I had the basics laid out in front of me then I'd be well on my way to achieving my goal by now.

... it's not my fault that the information is there but difficult to find.. I simply don't have the time to sift through a post with over 2000 comments to find the one bit of info I need.

It’s not that easy to do a rewind without any experience, that combined with that you still come across as someone less willing to learn and more like wanting the solution just served.. that’s the problem. Good luck with it.
 
larsb said:
someone less willing to learn

Bro.. what is it about "I don't have the time as I work 2 jobs, study a degree and have 6 kids" that you struggle to understand??

I am willing to learn.. I just don't have the time to learn everything from scratch.

I have limited time, so if someone was actually going to be kind enough to share their knowledge on this specific bit of motor winding then I think it would be easy tbh.

I have a BSc in Computer Science and Engineering, a foundation degree in biochemistry and studying another BSc in Computer Networks and Communications, I am a Software Engineer, general programmer and Sys Admin so I don't think understanding the basics would be too difficult for me really. As I say I simply don't have the time to study a new subject right now.

I was hoping someone with knowledge would be willing to share their knowledge with me, and a few people have, which is how I'm getting as far as I am.

I don't know about you, but I think sharing knowledge is the key to success, I certainly don't think telling folk "I know what I'm doing but if you wanna know too you'll have seek the information for yourself because I'm not willing bro share my knowledge" is the way to go about things.

While I appreciate your time, you probably could have explained to me everything I need to know in this conversation but instead you have chosen to attempt to tell me Im lazy, can't be bothered and not willing to learn.

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Jamie,

You seem to have 3 threads going on about this motor. I am avoiding the other one because it seems to have turned into the kind of shitshow one might expect on Jeremy Kyle... Could I recommend you limit your thread proliferation and umm... treat the internet like the fragile ecosystem of souls it is? Of which we are merely two extremely fragile egos among a billion others.

I am still interested in this, since it is an actual attempt at doing something among the million "why doesn't my motor spin" threads. It is also nearly the motor I have (I have the external controller one).

How did the motor rewind end up? how much copper did you pack in?

Re. the controller, current etc, I expect your controller is running BLDC, square wave, 6 step, 2 phase at a time mode.
You get better performance from a sinusoidal/FOC controller, which runs all 3 phases at the same time. The mag field from the stator is then a continuously rotating vector, rather than one with 6 discrete steps per eletrical rev. With losses proportional to I^2, running 3 phases rather than 2 with the same overall power can be much more efficient.

It will also be quieter. Sadly I cannot recommend a good controller, they are all fraught with issues - ASI is virtually unobtainable, Nucular is huge lead time, VESC based is kind of rubbish; the project leader seems to have minimal interest in ebikes, and has been sitting on much needed fixes and improvements to the motor control code for years, my controller is an educational toy for me, the Alien ones are meh... Sabvoton seems to get a lot of users with minimal fuss and seems less prone to exploding than Kelly.

Regarding the battery vs phase amps, the motor and controller acts as a crude buck-boost converter, like a DC transformer... which converts [essentially...] battery volts and amps into phase amps and volts while conserving power (-losses to resistance and transient errors to inductance). Where a transformer does this by the turns ratio, a buck boost does this by varying the duty cycle and using the motor coil inductance to store and release the energy.

Vbat*Ibat= sum(Vbemf*Iphase)+sum(Iphase^2*Rphase)+sum(I*Ldi/dt) + Iphase*duty*Rbattery
Where sum(...) denotes the sum across 3 phases. For a 6 step this is easy, just use the ones of interest, for a FOC or sinusoidal it is harder and is done via a series of matrix transformations into 2 phase.

There is ultimately a hard limit on the motors abilities given by the copper fill (and iron saturation and magnet strength...), and rewinding does not show up magic combos, only incremental improvements from slightly better fill, less space loss to insulation, thinner wire for less skin effects.... and yes, you could possibly run it hotter with higher grade wire, provided you don't start to damage the magnets or other structural components.

Consider that (simplified, not accounting for reluctance torque):
T=[constant for geometry]*BstatorXBrotor (X denotes cross product)
Brotor is dependent on the magnets.
Bstator is given by the amp turns. More turns gives more torque, BUT the turns area decreases, and they get longer, so more resistance. The Back EMF of the motor also scales with number of turns, with
V=[constant for geometry...]*n*d(phi)/dt.
Overall, there is no net gain, only potentially better matching to your controller's capabilities, or better scaling of the speed torque tradeoff to your use case.
 
So I did the rewind.. eventually!

I ended up using layers of insulating tape, both Nomex paper and fibreglass tape.

I ended up with 5 turns of 7 strands of 0.75mm dual coat enamelled high quality wire.

I've been running on a modded square wave controller peaking at 111A (the FETs are 110A). It will run over 5500W continuously all day.

5600W was the figure the 1500W factory motor burnt out with. This rewind is soaking it up. I think it will easily run around 8kW!

So I did it! I did what I set out to do.. I rewound the motor and now I've more than quadrupled the power rating. The motor has so much torque it's insane.
56227857b8722bc095867beeeb7e9f96.jpg
3c460702030d3549d58438ee530fb9a4.jpg
af6ac52c8d705a8beefa8e7cc68854b9.jpg
cbbab913924c9374e847ca01c76d2cf9.jpg


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mxlemming said:
Jamie,

You seem to have 3 threads going on about this motor. I am avoiding the other one because it seems to have turned into the kind of shitshow one might expect on Jeremy Kyle... Could I recommend you limit your thread proliferation and umm... treat the internet like the fragile ecosystem of souls it is? Of which we are merely two extremely fragile egos among a billion others.

I am still interested in this, since it is an actual attempt at doing something among the million "why doesn't my motor spin" threads. It is also nearly the motor I have (I have the external controller one).

How did the motor rewind end up? how much copper did you pack in?

Re. the controller, current etc, I expect your controller is running BLDC, square wave, 6 step, 2 phase at a time mode.
You get better performance from a sinusoidal/FOC controller, which runs all 3 phases at the same time. The mag field from the stator is then a continuously rotating vector, rather than one with 6 discrete steps per eletrical rev. With losses proportional to I^2, running 3 phases rather than 2 with the same overall power can be much more efficient.

It will also be quieter. Sadly I cannot recommend a good controller, they are all fraught with issues - ASI is virtually unobtainable, Nucular is huge lead time, VESC based is kind of rubbish; the project leader seems to have minimal interest in ebikes, and has been sitting on much needed fixes and improvements to the motor control code for years, my controller is an educational toy for me, the Alien ones are meh... Sabvoton seems to get a lot of users with minimal fuss and seems less prone to exploding than Kelly.

Regarding the battery vs phase amps, the motor and controller acts as a crude buck-boost converter, like a DC transformer... which converts [essentially...] battery volts and amps into phase amps and volts while conserving power (-losses to resistance and transient errors to inductance). Where a transformer does this by the turns ratio, a buck boost does this by varying the duty cycle and using the motor coil inductance to store and release the energy.

Vbat*Ibat= sum(Vbemf*Iphase)+sum(Iphase^2*Rphase)+sum(I*Ldi/dt) + Iphase*duty*Rbattery
Where sum(...) denotes the sum across 3 phases. For a 6 step this is easy, just use the ones of interest, for a FOC or sinusoidal it is harder and is done via a series of matrix transformations into 2 phase.

There is ultimately a hard limit on the motors abilities given by the copper fill (and iron saturation and magnet strength...), and rewinding does not show up magic combos, only incremental improvements from slightly better fill, less space loss to insulation, thinner wire for less skin effects.... and yes, you could possibly run it hotter with higher grade wire, provided you don't start to damage the magnets or other structural components.

Consider that (simplified, not accounting for reluctance torque):
T=[constant for geometry]*BstatorXBrotor (X denotes cross product)
Brotor is dependent on the magnets.
Bstator is given by the amp turns. More turns gives more torque, BUT the turns area decreases, and they get longer, so more resistance. The Back EMF of the motor also scales with number of turns, with
V=[constant for geometry...]*n*d(phi)/dt.
Overall, there is no net gain, only potentially better matching to your controller's capabilities, or better scaling of the speed torque tradeoff to your use case.
You have written a lot here. I did say early on that right now and for the foreseeable future I'm not interested in the technical aspects. Eventually I will learn it all. But for now it's trial and error, see what happens kind of thing.

I know a fair amount of what you're saying and I believed it too. But a lot of it turns out to be BS.

I've increased my top speed by 7mph (I got 39mph tonight from 49V). Ive got incredible amounts of torque available, it doesn't ease off its acceleration curve, it just keeps pulling to top speed. The motor barely gets hot. The controller doesn't get hot.

I certainly haven't traded speed for torque. I've simply increased both. 105A burnt the motor out. Now it takes 6kW no problem at all.

And this debate around sine wave and square wave is rediculous to me. I don't like sine wave. It's slow. There's a serious lack of torque and I don't want efficiency, like that's literally the opposite of what I'm aiming for. My aim was maximum torque/acceleration, I believe I have achieved this with outstanding results!! I have only used a multimeter to check for shorts in the windings, that's it. No fancy lab bench equipment, no lab tests at all in fact, just rebuild, test, take notes.

And that was a lot of my point in doing this. Do we really need to be doing equations and lab tests? No, definition not. I have shocked myself a little with what I've managed to do, and still having a bit of trouble wrapping my head around the power that's being produced and handled but this small motor.

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nicobie said:
Congratulations on successfully rewinding a motor.

That's something not many here (including myself) have done.

[emoji469][emoji469][emoji469]

Thanks
[emoji57][emoji108]

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goatman said:
are those the same motor?
they look different
They are both 35mm 1500w rated. The iron laminations are exactly the same. I thought the steel stator would better to handle high torque, I'm going to attempt a low turn count on the other one for high RPM/speed.

Good spot though!!

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Well maybe consider the time and money somebody (Sketch Coleman) put in to develop these hubsinks, tested and marketed them and suddenly, 75€ including shipping to Europe (for me) isn´t expensive at all. I asked him to get me a discount if I´d take 10 and he did so you could even do the community a favor and import more than just one for yourself.
 
Like I said, I payed less (about 40% less I think) because I ordered more. If it´s not a big deal, consider building your own and sell them at a lower price. That would help anyone involved and produce a more diverse market :D

https://hubsink.com/pages/distributors

Ask him for a better price here or get active yourself.

And tbh, 2.59$ just doesn´t sound right. I myself like to order from sites like Aliexpress too but I know that these prices are just that low because the workers there get such a small loan, it´s ridiculous.

Note: I actually have one hubsinkv2 set brand new here in Germany but don´t know if it´s worth shipping it due to new brexit regulations :?:
 
Would be awesome if you get more than one set and supply the community :D
I mean, for me as a student 75€ for a set of aluminium is pretty expensive too that´s why I came up with the solution of ordering in bulk, which reduced the price to ~55€/piece incl. fees.
 
Please, set up shop and sell me hubsinks for the 1500W Voilamart motor you have (which I have one of as well) for 10£. I'll take some.
 
Cnc will be bucks no way will he do it cheaper.

You want them cheap use lost foam casting.
 
jamiejackherer said:
Ianhill said:
Cnc will be bucks no way will he do it cheaper.

You want them cheap use lost foam casting.
Well the CNC machinist is my pal so it will cost me the price of the aluminium and a tad extra for his help. But I won't be charged like a normal customer.

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I got a mate like that to but his cnc machine needs more bribing its gping to take along time to make an integrate part unless he got a 100000k rig the fins will have to be thick all sort of issues he will tell you soon enough.
 
If you checked the price for alu blocks and cnc machine time then the 75usd or whatever hubsink price will look cheap. This profile type should be extruded. it’s borderline criminal to cut it with all the waste created (even though it can be done).
 
As the title says...

I'm currently running a cheap £50 24 FET Chinese controller at peak 190A with a 48V battery.

I've upgraded the MOSFETs to 170A higher quality ones. I've doubled up on copper bus bars

I've noticed when I've run a board over 120A the PCB starts curving! But other than that it's running really well. And it doesn't even get warm never mind hot[emoji848].

Has anyone gone above the 200-250A on a Chinese controller? I know that the MCU and other components can stop working at around 300A and it will interfere with some other components.

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