Voicecoils's 2nd build: Giant DH Team

[voicecoils]

Hi,
Nice bike!
Gary has some opinions about the Neu here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3904&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=435#p98865
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3904&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=435#p100963
Can you fit the packs side by side inside the triangle (which would reduce the width)?
Could you put one inside and one below?

Thanks for the links MitchJi, I've read those posts by Gary, good stuff. The Neu 1915 is what I've been looking at, as you may have read earlier.

The battery mock-ups were made off the dimensions specified but I'll have to wait till the real packs are here to know for sure what can and can't fit.

By the mockups, they don't both fit in the triangle in any orientation (although there is space I believe for the cells if they were loose and not in a brick configuration). One inside and one below is probably a workable option. That's how Deecanio had his packs set up IIRC. I'll tape the mockups in that config and post a picture tomorrow morning.

Thanks for stopping buy

 

[deecanio]

Hi Voicecoils,

yes i have been looking at the neu's too, not that i know my arse from my elbow with the rc kit but the built in reduction was interesting for sure and others have said that the neu motors are top quality!!
you will get both your batts in with one in and one under thats no biggy, do you have the option of splitting the packs at all? if you could then you could have the cells only in a custom box too?
like kim said 2.5mm will be plenty, i have 2mm and its fine.
keep the pics coming mate, the dh team is going to be a sweet ride and now im looking at your build to get some ideas on mounting and kit for rc, lead the way brother
oh by the way let me know the dimensions of your packs, your more than welcome if you want my cages to help you out for mounting if you want

Cheers,

D

 

[voicecoils]

G'Day D,


Thanks for the offer on the cages, if they do fit I'd love to take you up on that offer!

The Neu 1915 does not have built-in reduction AFAIK. It is designed for fairly high torque however (lower rpm/v) though. It can be had with a P32 helical gearbox mounted to the face but I thought that general consensus was that the PXX gearboxes would be loud and not last long at 3.6kW. I'm not an RC guy myself so I'm just learning as I go along. Here's a link: Neu 1900 Series

No decisions made yet about the powertrain yet though :? .

At this point, I'm working under the assumption that reconfiguring my pack would void warranty, if it turns out not to be the case, then that's something I will be looking into. Fitting the packs into the DH Team should also allow the same two packs to fit into the red bike in the same configuration.

I have a bunch of mounting ideas floating through my head atm, if I was a CAD jockey I'd have the posted up for all to see already :wink: I'll get something up soon to help with visualising.

Had my rear wheel trued today at the bike shop, very happy with the result.

 

[deecanio]

Hi Mate,

yeh im going to hold off until i see how the rc gear pans out, so many clever guys looking at it now that i think it's only a matter of time before we have a tried and trusted setup, then we'll be in ebike heaven 8)
i will measure up the cages for you as soon as i get chance, both have lids but one lid needs painting (smooth hammerite bleck to match). the cages are a little on the heavy side as they are 5mm steel but i felt happy that my lipo were secure and protected in them. If they will fit you can have them, you'll just need to pay the postage and there yours!! i paid wayyyy too much for them originally but if they help you out i won't ask you for jack glad someone else will get some more use out of them, the dimensions look similair to mine so it will be close.


Cheers,

D

 

[voicecoils]

If they will fit you can have them, you'll just need to pay the postage and there yours!! i paid wayyyy too much for them originally but if they help you out i won't ask you for jack glad someone else will get some more use out of them, the dimensions look similair to mine so it will be close.

Rad. Thanks!

Finally got the DH Team on the road. Took her down to Bondi Beach for a cruise and a coffee Not exactly 'off road' but a good start for a shakedown.

First the bad: I need to sort out my misbehaving LX rear derailleur, a few more links in the chain and a few twists of the barrel adjusters and adjustment screws and she'll be sweet. (always easier said then done with pesky deraillerus though!!!). There's a bit of ticking and clicking that's impossible to locate while riding (suspension, cranks, gears, who knows) but I'll sort it out. Also, fark it is heavy to carry (but it rides like its got half the weight )

The Good: Very comfy seating position even on the hard and narrow seat. Not the best leg extension obviously but very good ergonomics overall. The wheelset feels great on the street, the bike feels super stable and really sinks into corners nicely. Climbs better then I was expecting. I was planning to move up to a 40t on the front but I think I'll hold off for now. I can spin seated up mild hills nicely and survived one quite steep out of the saddle grind. WIll play around with suspension and see how well I can dial it in, no real complaints so far though. Lastly the Juicy 5 brakes are super sweet and offer huge controlled stopping power. Stopping after I came down a decent hill, the front was smokin' hot (ouch, fingerless gloves) and the rear was warm. No fade in power though, perfect 8)

 

[voicecoils]

Just a note: This will be a slow build, but I am committed to it. The Red Bike, which I aim to have as my commuter, has build priority.

If you've stopped by to have a read and wonder "where the hell is the 'ebike' in this bike" your curiosity won't be satisfied for quite a while, apologies in advance

I hope to have a great ride on my hands when it is finally finished . Thanks for checking in.

 

[AussieJester]

Looks like a nice day in Bondi... the chickie babe in the last pic picking the bathers out her butt would be ahppy aboiut the pics to im sure LOL...

Good to hear the brakes work well, good things come to those that weight mate, be nice e-bike when all done

 

[johnrobholmes]

Extremely nice bike sir.


Make sure your cassette is spinning round, that the derailleur cage and hanger is not bent when looking for causes of ticking. They can be very frustrating sometimes. Do you have a tool to measure chain stretch?

 

[voicecoils]

Extremely nice bike sir.

Make sure your cassette is spinning round, that the derailleur cage and hanger is not bent when looking for causes of ticking. They can be very frustrating sometimes. Do you have a tool to measure chain stretch?

Thanks I'll look into it. The cassette should be spinning round, especially as the wheels is in a thru axel so can't really sit out of alignment.

I don't have a tool to measure chain stretch, but I do know the device you're referring to. The chain has a few hundred km's on it thats all.

Weird noises are always unsettling when you're riding, With full suspension and all the linkage pivots points and bearings there's certainly opportunities for noises to crop up.

 

[voicecoils]

Looks like a nice day in Bondi... the chickie babe in the last pic picking the bathers out her butt would be ahppy aboiut the pics to im sure LOL...

I think her hand is just behind her. Anyways, plenty of more awkwardness could have been in the shot. It was actually quite a quiet spot.

 

[VRdublove]

I ride a Giant Trance, and when it starts getting creaky, there's a couple things I check. First off, get some WD-40 and spray the rear suspension pivot points one by one until you find the one that's making noise. You can then either give it a nice shot of WD-40, or fix it the right way by taking it apart and regreasing the bearing.

If the noise isn't coming from any of the pivot points, it's probably coming from the bottom bracket. Just remove the bottom bracket and clean and regrease the threads. Then you should be good to go.

Nice bike! I love the color.

 

[rguy56]

Nice ideas... I like that battery positioning mock-up.

I have the same bike sitting in my shed. I want to make it into a winter ride (we get a ton of snow here) with studded tires and a front hub motor.

That through-axle has me thinking about the best way to mount a motor, though. It's such a nice bike that I'm not sure I want to modify it so much that I can't get it back to original. I might just change that front fork for something else... or get a replacement axle machined with interior threading and a custom torque arm on the end...

Bob

 

[voicecoils]

I ride a Giant Trance, and when it starts getting creaky, there's a couple things I check. First off, get some WD-40 and spray the rear suspension pivot points one by one until you find the one that's making noise. You can then either give it a nice shot of WD-40, or fix it the right way by taking it apart and regreasing the bearing.

If the noise isn't coming from any of the pivot points, it's probably coming from the bottom bracket. Just remove the bottom bracket and clean and regrease the threads. Then you should be good to go.

Good suggestions, thanks!

 

[voicecoils]

Nice ideas... I like that battery positioning mock-up.

I have the same bike sitting in my shed. I want to make it into a winter ride (we get a ton of snow here) with studded tires and a front hub motor.

Same frame? Cool! They were quite a popular one, now everyone has a Giant Glory or IronHorse Sunday it seems.

You're talking about a front hubmotor. What front fork do you have, is it a 20mm thru axle type?

For riding in the snow, I reckon a powered rear wheel with studs and a short ski on the front would be awesome.

Any thru axle, front or rear will require quite a bit of work to use with any current hub motors designed for standard vertical drop outs. Difficult, but perhaps not impossible.

 

[voicecoils]

I've emailed the seller of the frame about the dent. He's actually selling 2004 DH Comp frame (very similar) at the moment, perhaps he'll be honorable and come up with a solution.

Had he told me about the damage, that'd be one thing, but to have such a surprise wrapped under a inner tube isn't so nice :x

 

[AussieJester]

I've emailed the seller of the frame about the dent. He's actually selling 2004 DH Comp frame (very similar) at the moment, perhaps he'll be honorable and come up with a solution.

Had he told me about the damage, that'd be one thing, but to have such a surprise wrapped under a inner tube isn't so nice :x

Do you think he intentionally didnt tell you about it or perhaps forgot it was actually dented? may have happened sometime ago he wrapped it and simply forgot about it...i like to give people the benefit of the doubt more so than i should sometimes LoL I hope he does come to some 'agreement' though...

 

[voicecoils]

Do you think he intentionally didnt tell you about it or perhaps forgot it was actually dented? may have happened sometime ago he wrapped it and simply forgot about it...i like to give people the benefit of the doubt more so than i should sometimes LoL I hope he does come to some 'agreement' though...

I don't know his position and can't really speculate. I have not accused him of hiding the damage from me, but I did say I wasn't happy about it and that I would not have paid the price I did, had I known about it. I also reposted quotes from me asking him before the sale to carefully inspect the frame for damage, and his response from that.

I don't know if the frame was bought by him first hand or send hand. If bought 2nd hand, it's possible he never discovered the dent himself, but he did specifically tell me that he kept a close eye on the frame because he was racing with it and didn't want anything to snap on him mid race. Since that's the case, he should be able to understand why I wouldn't want the same to happen to me.

As a structural member of the frame, the tubing in tension as we've talked about earlier in the thread but it's still significantly less strong with the "pinch".

One solution I can see to the problem is for him to swap my swing arm for the swing arm in the frame he's selling. Another option would be to sell me the other frame at a significant discount. He could even buy the frame back off me for the price I paid. He could pay for the frame to be repaired by gripsport.com.au (though it would be cost prohibitive).

Much depends on his character, he could:

- admit he withheld the information from me (I'd say that's unlikely)
- deny knowing anything about it and refuse to do anything
- deny knowing anything about it but feel compelled to compensate me
- accuse me of doing the damage myself and then blaming him for it
... maybe something completely different, who knows!

 

[AussieJester]

- deny knowing anything about it and refuse to do anything

Seems most likely if he is a dishonest type hopefully he isnt. I think he should swap the swingarm from the frame he is selling...fingers crossed anywayz..OH was it an eBay sale by chance? Forget if you mentioned early on

 

[voicecoils]

Seems most likely if he is a dishonest type hopefully he isnt. I think he should swap the swingarm from the frame he is selling...fingers crossed anywayz..OH was it an eBay sale by chance? Forget if you mentioned early on

Not eBay, classifieds section on a mountain biking forum. No buyer/seller protection really...

I'm hoping for a good outcome too cheers!

 

[MitchJi]

if matt comes up with something that is fittable to a lot of bikes (say seatpost mount) i think you'll see an exodus from hubs to rc because of the power to weight advantage and size of controllers.

Cheers,

D

Hi D,

A seatpost mount might not work well for an FS MTB. You might want to look at Mile's posts on this thread:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6690&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

 

[MitchJi]

I have a Neu 1915 right here in hand. I am also a distributor for Neu and Castle products if you need some shipped out to you, I can do it in one box and save you some cash at least.


I can't say just how nice the Neu will work, but for the price and size it is a very fine motor for the task at hand. The gearbox I am working on is made just for the 1915. Judging by the power, I think it will be the PERFECT motor for the job. My only concern is how well the gears will hold up to the power!

Hi John,

I think you posted someplace that you thought outrunners on a bike might not work well unless they are ridden smoothly. If thats an issue it would be worse with a bike ridden on trails. Would you mind elaborating?

Also when used with the accompanying gearbox the resulting RPM is much lower than an outrunner. Without the gearbox its much higher. Matt posted that the gearboxes are very noisy. Gary posted that the noise is about the same with or without the gearbox. Another opinion would be nice. Is the Neu (higher rpm) or the Neu /gearbox combo substantially noisier than a normal outrunner?

Gary posted that the P62 6.7 gear ratio Gearbox is strong enough for his Neu 2215/3Y (same gearbox is also sold for the 10,000 watt 2230).

Do you know if the P32 6.7 gear ratio Gearbox sold for the 1900 series motors is strong enough for ebike use? If not can the 1900 series motors be used (possibly as a special order) with one of the stronger gearboxes (P42 or P62)?

Thanks!

Mitch

 

[voicecoils]

...Gary posted that the P62 6.7 gear ratio Gearbox is strong enough for his Neu 2215/3Y (same gearbox is also sold for the 10,000 watt 2230)....

Mitch Ji,

I'm not considering the PXX gearboxes, as I mentioned here: PXX. But you might find better answers on the long RC motor discussion thread.

I'm also not considering a seatpost mounted motor system or anything due to the rear suspension. The last drive stage would have to start ON the pivot point and end at the wheel to work, this is not possible on a virtual pivot design anyways (where the pivot point varies throughout the travel). I'll be mounting on the swingarm itself. More unsprung weight is the consequence.

Back to the DH Team. My batteries and charger have arrived. Both packs are sitting at exactly 40.2 volts (36v nominal lifepo4). I have to fit my 45a powerpole connectors to them and the chargers, and then I'll get them charging. More to come...

Cheers!

 

[recumpence]

I will do my best not to muddy up the waters by diverging to far off the primary topic of this thread. However, I will give a brief (I hope) answer to the issue of outrunners versus inrunners...........

The only issue (problem) with high RPM RC inrunners is the high pitch whine they emit. The panetary gearbox adds a bit to this. THe benefit is HUGE power per pound, even more than outrunners! Also, it is easier to seal in inrunner from the elements. That makes them, possibly, better for dirt use.

Outrunners still make a small amount of whine from the winding pulses. Johnrobholmes and I had a conversation about this the other day. Outrunners require a very low PWM frequency to operate properly. This frequency is in the audible range (I believe it is set for 8KZ in my ESC). So, they ring as they run. It is not loud, but it is there. I would say in most situations, an outrunner would be somewhere around 1/3 the decibel level of an inrunner. Couple that with a belt primary rather than gears, and you have a much quieter system.

Now for the down side..............

Outrunners (most outrunners) have an overhanging bell (no support bearing at the bell skirt). This overhang allows the can to migrate a tiny bit when encountering sharp bumps. This shaft flex/bell migration causes back EMF confusion in the ESC, sometimes. Now, a high quality ESC, like the HV110, is far less prone to losing sync with the motor. Whereas cheaper ESCs cannot cope as well. Also, my costly Plettenberg has a skirt bearing to eliminate can flex.

So, it would seem, the more you pay, the less issues will result.

That being said, I would say that mounting the motor close to the pivot to minimize how much movement the motor sees as the suspension moves would be important.

Also, as of this point, the best ESC for the money really seems to be the HV110. As long as you respect the amp rating (100 amps at 48 volts). As for motors, there are a few that work fine. But, again, a bumpy surface may affect that.

Sorry to clog up this thread with data that should be on the RC motor or gearbox thread. I just wanted to comment since the question was asked here.

Matt

 

[voicecoils]

No Worries Good reading for me too Matt!

My batteries and chargers now have connectors. I plugged them in and both batteries and both chargers behave. They only took about 4 min for the charger to go into a float mode where it cycled between drawing 7 watts from the wall to less then 1 watt.

Can't wait to get running over on the red bike with the bafang front motor!

 

[voicecoils]

Well, looks like both packs might just fit in the frame. I can squeeze them in but damn it is tight. I would have to re-route cables and file off the cable guides for a start. Not sure what sort of enclosure I could make since they're practically wedged in on their own. Something to think about though.