Zippy Flightmax / Turnigy lipo testing

[mdd0127]

mwkeefer- It's a good think Mdd0127 didn't order those blue 5Ah packs, and then discover they only did 4.5Ah... They would have a Visa fraud case charged against them and a charge reversal, a BBB fraud claim for the over rated "C" rate, a lawsuit for false advertising the 5Ah capacity, and of course reported to shipping companies for not meeting safe lithium battery shipping practices because the bubble wrap on the bottom was popped and no-longer padded on all sides... LOL!

And would complaining about false advertising have been wrong or is false advertising another thing you idiots will just accept? 4.5 AH at 10c would have been much better than receiving a 13lb lithium polymer paperweight from F#@*^%$ HobbyKing!

You guys need to grow up. I got completely hosed by HK's terrible service. I posted what happened and let people know and tried to recover my stolen money in any way I could. If this isn't acceptable to you, you don't have to read my posts.

Seriously, I'm bummed out about a few of you guys. Luke, I love reading your posts and it's awesome how you throw in little observations that most "engineers" miss. You should be smart enough to see through all of this, understand that the points I've made are the truth, move on, and use your connections to help everyone find an HONEST, reliable lipo supplier. Now you're coming off as a spoiled little brat that's mad because he might have to wait a few weeks for some toy parts.

mwkeefer, I like how you post organized detailed posts that make sense. Hyena, I've never been a dick to you? I even wished you the best in your crash thread. None of you have any personal knowledge of my financial situation so you have no reason to comment on it. I'm buying parts for my project with other people's money. When I spend $600 on something and have to let the investors know I got ripped off and need more money for batteries, it inconveniences me and makes me look bad. I have to do what is needed to protect my interests.

Why are you guys being dicks to me? Seriously, I feel like I pissed off the jocks in high school or something. So, you guys love HobbyKing. Great. It doesn't matter to you that their ILLEGAL shipping practices and terrible customer service are causing thousands of unknowing customers per year to go through stress and financial loss because they can't run their business right. Does anyone know if their factory is run by twelve year olds and pumping toxic sludge into the river next door? This is a serious question. Do you even know what you're supporting? The dumbest by the cheapest by the mostest is the name of your game. Well, hopefully, your unsustainable, unethical game will come to an end soon.

 

[dozentrio]

When I first noticed this thread was busy again, I read the most recent posts and heard there was some problem with HobbyKing shipping. It seemed that it was the end of the reign of cheap lipos, and I immediately told everyone I knew that the Light-EV world had changed for good. After a more thorough reading, I realized that the cause of this global catastrophe was one of our very own members! I was shocked and infuriated, at first, because it seemed like the end of a good thing had been caused out of spite, or for revenge. After all, reporting someone for illegal shipping is not going to get you new batteries. Its just gonna make sure other people don't get theirs, either.

But of course, I don't know the full details of what happened. I can say this. If I lost 600$ on batteries because they arrived damaged I would not be pleased either. I would do whatever I could to try to get my money back or get new batteries. I don't know anything about mdd0127, or what kind of person he is. I also don't know much about Hobby King and their operation. However, so far my experiences with them have been extremely satisfactory. I ordered a 6s battery medic and instead, got a trakker watt-meter. Which performs all the functions of the battery medic, but also works as a watt-meter. So, I get the impression they had no battery medics on hand and sent me something better instead. I also ordered some batteries. $200 worth of 15C 5s, 3Ah Turnigys. I was actually very impressed with how they were packaged, and plan on using these with my new bike.

So, on the one hand, I have a ton of second hand information about how great Hobby King is, and bit of first hand information about how great they are. On the other hand, I have a second hand report about how they ripped someone off. I think I'll reserve judgment for now, but if all my future experiences indicate that Hobby King is trustworthy and honorable, I may develop a bit of skepticism about mdd0127.

 

[knoxie]

Yo

Wasnt going to pitch in on this however, I placed my first order with HK 2 weeks ago during the lipo shipping problem, I have received a new tracking number that doesn't work, I paid 70 bucks for shipping via ems which looks now like it was a waste of money as its going to be maybe 30 days from the date of order before I get my cells.

I have sent an e-mail to them with questions, they sent me an automated ticket with a reference but I have had no answers to my questions.

That said believe it or not this is still more than I have had in the past from Chinese suppliers! its pretty normal, I think that we forget how good the vendors are in the UK and the US, myself in the past have lost big bucks ordering stuff from the PRC, ask Steve Head with the Dirt Monkey what they sent him on his first order from the PRC a container full of cr*p.

It seems that although they are a little tardy at the moment they are actually delivering, you just wont get the same level of after sales from a company in the PRC that you would in the US or UK, this is just my experience.

I am hopeful my order will come soon as others have and wont blast them out of the water about it unless something goes badly wrong.

HK offer the cheapest most high performing cells for the money that you can buy even with the wait I reckon it should be more than worth it.

Knoxie

 

[Hyena]

Hyena, I've never been a dick to you?

That was a random picture from google images, I meant no offence if you actually do wear glasses or are overweight.
I can't even remember your original beef with hobbyking now. Was it a delayed shipment, DOA cells or did they deliver a flaming turd in a shoe box to your door step? The shipment thing has been well documented as a problem largely beyond their control, they did everything they could to try and get around it and as Mike posted above and other have posted elsewhere packages originally delayed during this period are now starting to be delivered.
If you got DOA cells that sucks, I did too on one of my orders - the first one actually. I was pissed for a while that I had to order a replacement and then wait for it to be delivered but I soon got over it once I started using the packs and found how superior they were over everything else I've used.
It is printed in black and white on their site about their warranty and returns policy (infact doesn't it come up during check out?). Yeah it sucks having to send stuff back to china (if you bother doing so) but it's the same with just about anything you buy from china, and it's the risk you take getting it so much cheaper than from a local shop. As has been posted a number of times in this thread if you order one extra pack than you need (and factor it into the overall cost) you'll be fine, and most times all packs will work.
HK are in the process of opening warehouses all over the world, once these are up and running it'll make it much easier to return the odd defective battery or product.

 

[liveforphysics]

When you go to pay at hobbycity, you have to check a box that says you both read and agree to the rules.

The rules are simple, and extremely good if you ask me.

If you get something defective, like a bad cell (in the case of mdd0127), or even if you just burn up a controller or whatever, you send it back to them at your expense, and they replace it. Hobbycity said to send them back for replacement (totally reasonable). He chooses not to do this because it would mean paying shipping costs...


Mdd0127 had to of checked this box to place his order. Yet, when he gets some bad cells, he decides he shouldn't have to follow the rules/agreement of doing business, and instead plays Yo-Yo Visa, and snitches to shipping regulators...

To me, this makes you a piece of sh*t snitch bitch that can't follow the simple rules you agree to when you choose to buy, so you take it out in a way that effects thousands of people, and no doubt causes loads of hassles and 10's of thousands of dollars lost in logistics and lost visa processing ability for a company that all ready operates on a razor thin margin, because the owner is just a hobby-geek rather than big profit motivated like the other hobby shops that happily charge you an extra 50-200% mark-up in return for somebody to talk to if you call, and domestic shipping.

 

[mdd0127]

I agreed to their rules and by being in business, HobbyKing automatically agrees to some rules as well. One of these would be packing an order properly. Another would be competent quality control. Then we can talk about customer service, or a total lack thereof. By doing business at all, a company is agreeing to certain set of automatic conditions that must be met before they can ever hold the customer to their end of the contract. HobbyKing failed in absolutely EVERY aspect of being a business in my case. I made a deal for working batteries, shipped LEGALLY AND APPROPRIATELY PACKED, to my door. I did not receive that.

If the company doesn't make enough profit to have decent service and shipping, they need to reorganize or go out of business. If the owner is a just a hobby nerd, he's a thief of a hobby nerd in my eyes until I get an apology. If, as you said yourself, ten people a day have problems with their orders, that's 3650 people per year being inconvenienced/ripped off by this company.

You're acting like it's my fault that they chose to ship illegally and directly violate their credit card processing agreement. I asked over and over again for any support whatsoever and got nothing. I'm just supposed to spend a bunch of money to send the batteries back, then hope the people that can't do anything right actually acknowledge that they received them, see the damage, pick me some good packs, package them properly, and ship them to me legally and safely. They couldn't do it in the first place so why should I put out more money to give them another chance to waste more of my time?

Also take into consideration that it is illegal in the US to ship a knowingly damaged lithium battery. If you are in the US and get a damaged lipo, it is illegal for you to send it back without special containers and hazmat shipping. If you can't comply with a warranty policy without breaking the law, the warranty policy is breaking the law.

I wonder how many thousand people spent money on EMS shipping and still don't have their stuff weeks or months later. A company with ANY ethics at all would refund the shipping difference between EMS and slowboat. What about advertising 24 hour shipping all over the website DURING THE SHIPPING DELAY??? Is this not blatant, dishonest, false advertising? Sure, they may throw your batteries from the roof into the shipping dumpster within 24 hours, but no need to tell anyone that they'll probably sit there for a week or two before they go anywhere! It's lying to get a few more sales and that's all.

Maybe we have to pay more for lipos here. Maybe it's because it costs more to get them here safely and LEGALLY. I wonder how Singapore post feels about a bunch of poorly packed lipo going through their docs? My point is, until they run their business honestly and legally, they shouldn't be doing it, and you shouldn't be pissed at anyone for being honest and exercising their right to complain. If you want to disagree or post arguing opinions, that's great. The name calling and attacks on my character are juvenile and uncalled for. I have lost what respect I had for you. Maybe someday, your ability to understand business ethics and basic common sense will more closely match your physics abilities. :wink:

 

[Ypedal]

Hey Guys.. i know everyone feels strongly about their personal opinions but lets please try to keep this thread civil *(it's already gone past that point.. but you you know.. ).. would hate to have to lock it up.

---------

On Topic, my 3rd order has shipped and is showing scan information, should arrive this week ! 8)

 

[Ypedal]

mdd0127 : I think you should edit that sig, honestly man.. Even IF hk shipped it fully declared with hazmat cert etc, our LiPo batteries are only the tip of the iceburg of problem shipments, people send all sorts of stuff that should not be shipped, hourly 1000's of packages containing chemicals of all sorts get shipped, liquids in sub-standars containers, my box arrived with less protection than i would have liked but it was not horrendous..

I talk to shippers weekly who call in asking my opinion on how to package stuff, they are hazmat certified, i'm not, ( not now, but i was a few years ago, simple course, fill out form, take test, voila.. cert ! ) being certified does not always mean you know jack in real life .

I've spent over 1700$ for a single 48v 20ah LIFEPO4 pack way back in the early days before PING was a name, arrived DOA, no BMS, chargers that simply did not work and were fire hazards.. Unless you want to stick with SLA that you can buy at your local city, someone has to buy and try this stuff.. your chances buying from HK were pretty good from the start, at least you knew something about what you were paying for..

edit : About the service at HK, i assume the email you send them was nice an fuzzy covered in friendly sparkles, comming from the guy on the other end of those emails it sucks to deal with them irate people, i do what i have to do by company standards as an employee and when i get someone in a genuine pinch and they call in and need help being very polite about i i go above and beyond to help them often times at my own expense... If you sent them an email saying there is a problem, they say ship it back, you don't, the CS lady at the other end has fullfiled her duty and you did not so no reason to answer your emails. that simple. Imagine how many kids get their RC helicopters, crash them on the first throttle and email HK all pissed off and wanting a new heli.. lol.. Or like dealing with the cops, dont' be rude to them when you are at their mercy..

We are all just grains of sand in a sandbox.

 

[johnrobholmes]

I agreed to their rules and by being in business, HobbyKing automatically agrees to some rules as well. .... By doing business at all, a company is agreeing to certain set of automatic conditions that must be met before they can ever hold the customer to their end of the contract. ... I made a deal for working batteries, shipped LEGALLY AND APPROPRIATELY PACKED, to my door. I did not receive that.

How many batteries were damaged? You never actually specified the number. I didn't catch pics of them either, they may not be as bad as you think. Or maybe they are worse than I think :lol:


While HK did make a deal to ship batteries to you (I never remember reading that they promised certain packaging or legal shipping), you also made a deal with them that you would ship back goods that need replacing with no stipulations for the "why" of the matter. Two wrongs certainly don't make a right in the matter.


Now on the Visa "processing" fee, I would have probably reported them on that as well. They should have worked the charge into the shipping and handling instead of making it a CC processing fee, which is indeed a violation of Visa's terms.

 

[regmeister]

Obviously anyone selling these lipos should disclose up front that a return of the product will likely be difficult, expensive, or even impossible if they are damaged. Any savings that can be achieved by buying overseas includes this risk..

Unless you're an established customer they aren't going to just ship you more cells just because you ask them to. However they could help the process by photo-logging the packaging prior to cloing the box. It would be relatively trivial, and would be something they could go back to review in a case like this. Cellman provided a photo of the first battery shipment he sent to me.

I recently received another package from cellman with some external damage. By rights, I could have held up the shipper, and opened the package and confirmed it was ok prior to accepting it. I never did as I personally did not receive the package. However, there were no problems with delivery from cellman, as he had an inner package all wrapped up and the batteries were protected very well. Thanks again cellman, I hope you can offer more of those cells in the future.

BTW, I've never had any difficulties with HobbyCity. Sorry to hear that you have mdd027. Did you get your money back through VISA? I usually pay through paypal, and have never had a problem getting a refund through them when I've encountered a problem.

 

[mdd0127]

No, I didn't receive my money back from Visa. When I set up my bank account, I walked in there, told them I needed to open an account because I had a bunch of purchases to make, had already had multiple bad experiences with paypal and I needed some purchase protection. They said no problem so I handed them checks totaling $25K and started an account. Once I had the issue with HK, they informed me that my Visa card offered me NO international purchase protection. I canceled my card and will be closing the account as soon as a couple of checks clear.

I'm always nice on my first fourteen attempts at communication. When I get lied to, ran around, fed canned responses, then totally ignored, I tend to get a little frustrated. I have always stated only facts though possibly in a more stern manner as it became more and more clear that hobbyking was going to hang me out to dry.

About the damage. Four of the packs measure electrically OK but have crunched corners from the total lack of packing material. Packing boxes is a mail order company's main responsibility. It's should be acceptable for a potential customer to assume that they know how to package an item properly. Also, it should be safe for customers to assume that their package is being shipped legally. I haven't cut these open yet to see if they're damaged at the cell level but will have to before they can be used. One of the packs has a physically undamaged dead cell, and in that same pack on the opposite side there's a very damaged corner. Three of the packs made it safely and in good condition. 3 out of 8 is not good. What sucks is, I don't want to mix and match packs so since I can't get 5 new ones reliably, and will NEVER give hobbyking any more money, the other three packs are useless to me. I did order some 5s packs from another member that I'm planning on tearing apart to repair all of the damaged cells with. That way at least I'll have some batteries to use for testing. With all of my efforts to deal with HK, and the time that will be spent repairing packs, I would have been better off financially to buy packs somewhere else at triple the price.

That's enough HK BS. If anyone else has questions, please go back and look through the thread again. I believe I've covered all the bases.






Now, about these blue lipos, any idea why they aren't meeting the Ah rating? Has anyone else tested a different batch? Did you call hobbypatrz about the inaccurate rating? If so, what did they say? I was hopeful that they would work out.

 

[GGoodrum]

I, for one, am with mdd on this, and think HK dropped the ball way more than usual. Clearly 5 out of 8 packs bad points to hopefully a one off packaging/shipping problem, and should have "warranted" special support attention. I think the reason it didn't is more cultural than anything. Jason is clearly the boss, so no one working for him will want to risk losing face over making a decision that goes against a standard way of operating, and so they don't. Furthermore, even though the people you have communicated with may have totally understood that somebody screwed up on their end, nobody will ever claim ownership of that problem, due to the same losing face issue, so cover up and ignorance are the name of the game. Now Jason himself seems somewhat "Westernized" in his thinking, but I would bet the farm on the notion nobody beneath him is at all. When this issue finally did get up to his level, his own face-saving instincts kicked in, and I think he circled the wagons.

I think almost all of these issues will collectively get solved once they really do setup and stock their German, U.S. and OZ warehouses. Then, sending back the occasional bad pack won't be a big deal.

Now, about these blue lipos, any idea why they aren't meeting the Ah rating? Has anyone else tested a different batch? Did you call hobbypatrz about the inaccurate rating? If so, what did they say? I was hopeful that they would work out.

I'm waiting for HP to get their stock in, which should be this week, and then I'm going to order a bunch of 6s-5000 packs. I'm going to send one of these to Luke, so he can add it to the pile of LiPo and LiFePO4 packs he's testing. To me, even if it is 4500 vs 5000 mAh, that's not a biggie. If I was draining them down to LV cutoff, maybe I'd care, but I rarely go below about 20% left in the "tank". I also plan to make 3p/15Ah packs so whether the cells are 20C or 10C really doesn't concern me either. The fact of the matter is that a 15Ah pack of these is still going to be stronger than anything else out there, with the exception of a higher C-rated LiPo setup. They are still going to have less voltage drop, under load, than any of my a123 packs. The price difference is not that much, when you factor in EMS shipping, and I can give up a little in performance/capacity for the convenience of having the packs just 50 miles up Interstate 5. Ground shipping works out to be next-day.

The quality of the "blue labels" will improve, and HK will have their Seattle warehouse, so there will be competitive options, which is a win-win in my book. :wink:

-- Gary

 

[ZapPat]

mdd0127 - Why don't you just ship the 5 packs back for warranty? I know just one pack to send back isn't worth the time and money, but wouldn't sending back 5 packs at once be worth it? It does look to me like hobby king would honor their warranty on the packs for the kind of problems your packs had at the time of reception. Did they refuse to give you an RMA number or what?

As for the packaging issue, they could do better sometimes for sure... yet I have received over 60 lipo packs from them over more than 12 shipments via EMS, and and never received a damaged pack despite their poorly selected Lipo pack packaging. Have you considered this damage might be bad luck in the shipping process, and might not ever happen to you again? Unless of course your delivery guy happens to be brutal with packages, perhaps! UPS delivery guys are least are known for this, but I've seen a couple others too.

Pat

 

[mwkeefer]

Gary,

I can send the 20C 5S packs to luke now for testing... It won't change the results

It's not that these aren't good packs, they are fine and don't even warm up under normal use (odd) of 35A or 5C... but the sag is more than I've come to expect under load from lipo.

That said, when they have 6S I will be testing them too.... just a bit spoiled since HK underrates their 5AH (I wonder if they do that with the 5800mah? like they are really 6AH?) - it makes others seem smaller in size (which they are) and lower in capacity... truth be told, I was still above 3v per cell at 4.5AH measured with peaks of 35 but an average around 10A for 2C (pulse and go to maximize distance).

Far as HK goes, sometimes you will get a bad egg in the basket... a bad egg, you got far too many. Was the packaging (outside) intact when it arrived?

I would have to agree that at 5 packs, it's time to send them back to HobbyKing for replacement under warranty... it would probably cost about 40-45.00 which isn't even the price of a single pack, send em back!

-Mike

 

[liveforphysics]

I bought a high end Sony laptop 2 years ago. Flagship model for Sony. It arrived with the screen broken from a metal rod or something that got stabbed down through the elaborate double box setup into it. Box hardly looked damaged when I received it.

Sony took 2 days to get me an RMA code to return it, and then of course I had to pay return shipping.

Did this make me slander Sony and act like a bitch?

The company I work for, Microsoft, has many thousands of pissed customers daily. You get to talk to some poor lady in India about it when you call. They sell defective products with know safety flaws that cost companies and people 10s of billions of dollars of personal loss yearly.

That's life. Shit happens when you run a business.

 

[johnrobholmes]

Take it to another thread, fellas. This thread is for battery testing. Any more crap and I will start deleting and giving vacations.

 

[mdd0127]

You already did delete. You deleted an honest response that I took some time to compose. I feel like I've been censored unfairly. Gary closed the thread to OT posts after I had completely explained the situation, answered everyone's questions, and to some degree defended myself. Are you going to delete mwkeefer's posts regarding the shipping nightmare and the non zippy flightmax/ turnigy blue lipo? What about the posts where people are doing nothing but calling me names and posting images meant to belittle me? Is that on topic? If you're going to censor stuff, do it fairly. I'm disgusted.

How about this? I'll give my self a vacation....a long one. It's very obvious that there are quite a few folks here that don't share my opinions about business ethics and no amount of explaining will make them understand. They can keep buying their garbage from crooks and promoting it online.

To all those on this forum that believe in providing quality products and quality service that I have dealt with and learned from: Thank you. :wink:

 

[johnrobholmes]

You already did delete. You deleted an honest response that I took some time to compose. I feel like I've been censored unfairly. Gary closed the thread to OT posts after I had completely explained the situation, answered everyone's questions, and to some degree defended myself. Are you going to delete mwkeefer's posts regarding the shipping nightmare and the non zippy flightmax/ turnigy blue lipo? What about the posts where people are doing nothing but calling me names and posting images meant to belittle me? Is that on topic? If you're going to censor stuff, do it fairly. I'm disgusted.

How about this? I'll give my self a vacation....a long one. It's very obvious that there are quite a few folks here that don't share my opinions about business ethics and no amount of explaining will make them understand. They can keep buying their garbage from crooks and promoting it online.

To all those on this forum that believe in providing quality products and quality service that I have dealt with and learned from: Thank you. :wink:

I deleted back the last tiff in the thread, after we had already said to take it elsewhere. You said your peace, just open a new dang thread about it already. I promise it is easy to do.

Thread is locked down, see part two for TESTING of more lipos. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=19145