Bullitt (bucket cargo) with BBSHD - Should I go IGH?

I haven't installed that BBSHD in my Bullitt yet, had our 2nd kiddo put a delay in the tinkering. I've been reading about IGH and wondering if adding that to a BBSHD would be a good idea and doable?

From some early reading, a Nexus 5 has been suggested do it handling more torque than a Nexus 7 or Alfine. I then came across Sturmey Archer 3 and 5 gear hubs. Rohloff would be too $$$ sadly.

What what route be the best and what route would be the easiest to operate? I hope to take and/or pick my kids up in the bike during the summer and maybe early fall. Have an edgerunner I plan to convert for the wife so I we can all bike more.

What gearshifting drivetrain do you have now?

Does it do the job you need it to do?

Any specific reason for changing from it to IGH?


IGHs are nice for a number of reasons, but they have some potential disadvantages in certain uses, including motor power.

Might not be a problem depending on the situation, but the gear teeth probably don't take a shock load from sudden torque application as well as regular chain-sprockets do, so you might need to create a soft-start if the system you use doesn't have one, or something to always keep the chain tensioned up (tiny bit of current always going to the motor (sometimes called "virtual freewheel"), etc), so you don't have gear lash causing stress to the gear teeth.

They also have some input torque limit, beyond which some form of torque limiter will fail, disconnecting the insides from the input to protect them, and require disassembly to repair. So you also have to make sure that your gearing and any motor system limits prevent any torque over that limit, to ensure this doesn't happen and leave you walking. (since you won't have a pedal drivetrain either)

(I had some other thing in mind too but have forgotten it while typing and dozing )

Bullitt with an internal gear hub and a front hub motor is a great idea. That's how I set up the Bullitt shop bike at work. It's simple, reliable, effective, and redundant.

Bullitt with an internal gear hub and BBSHD is a bad idea, unless breaking stuff appeals to you.

Chalo said:

Bullitt with an internal gear hub and a front hub motor is a great idea. That's how I set up the Bullitt shop bike at work. It's simple, reliable, effective, and redundant.

Bullitt with an internal gear hub and BBSHD is a bad idea, unless breaking stuff appeals to you.

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Already have the BBSHD. I wanted more power and read that changing flats on a hub motor is a pain. Would just keeping the current shifter setup and run a shift sensor with a BBSHD be a good route?

I suppose I could install the BBSHD on my wife's edgerunner and find a hub motor the bullitt.

amberwolf said:

What gearshifting drivetrain do you have now?

Does it do the job you need it to do?

Any specific reason for changing from it to IGH?


IGHs are nice for a number of reasons, but they have some potential disadvantages in certain uses, including motor power.

Might not be a problem depending on the situation, but the gear teeth probably don't take a shock load from sudden torque application as well as regular chain-sprockets do, so you might need to create a soft-start if the system you use doesn't have one, or something to always keep the chain tensioned up (tiny bit of current always going to the motor (sometimes called "virtual freewheel"), etc), so you don't have gear lash causing stress to the gear teeth.

They also have some input torque limit, beyond which some form of torque limiter will fail, disconnecting the insides from the input to protect them, and require disassembly to repair. So you also have to make sure that your gearing and any motor system limits prevent any torque over that limit, to ensure this doesn't happen and leave you walking. (since you won't have a pedal drivetrain either)

(I had some other thing in mind too but have forgotten it while typing and dozing )

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Not sure the drivetrain, whatever was stock on a 2018-2019 Bullitt. Works fine for my needs which is to bike around with the kids and during the summer it will be my main transportation for under 10 mile radius errands. Might commute to work which would be 25 miles round trip I believe.

The IGH intrigued me for smoother shifting and I thought less chance of things to break

ElectroWoodGuy said:

Already have the BBSHD. I wanted more power and read that changing flats on a hub motor is a pain. Would just keeping the current shifter setup and run a shift sensor with a BBSHD be a good route?

I suppose I could install the BBSHD on my wife's edgerunner and find a hub motor the bullitt.

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Changing flats on an IGH is also a pain. At least with the Sturmey-Archer on my Brompton. But it is doable on the side of the road. It is advisable to practice adjusting the shifter after removing and re-installing the wheel at home before you attempt to do it on the road though.

ElectroWoodGuy said:

Already have the BBSHD. I wanted more power and read that changing flats on a hub motor is a pain. Would just keeping the current shifter setup and run a shift sensor with a BBSHD be a good route?

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In your situation, I'd use a wide range 7- or 8-speed derailleur setup, with or without a shift sensor (though it's a good idea to use one). And I'd frequently check the chain for elongation or stiff links.

ElectroWoodGuy said:

I suppose I could install the BBSHD on my wife's edgerunner and find a hub motor the bullitt.

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You could do that, and it would take advantage of the Bullitt's small front wheel. But there's nothing wrong with BBSHD + Bullitt, it's only BBSHD + gearhub that I think is a problem.

I have not seen a solution for a BBSHD+IGH that looks survivable unless its a Rohloff. On a cargo application you are going extreme duty and I think only Rohloff's torque capability is really designed for slow and steady grinds at the limit (I got this from Rohloff).

I am looking into converting one of my Bullitts to Rohloff+Gates but so far it looks like it is going to easily crack $2000, counting the IGH and a wheel build with a 36H MTX39+Sapim Strongs and brass nipples.

I know of another BBSHD'd Bullitt that uses a Kindernay but they went bankrupt, so not the basket you want to put your eggs into... assuming you can even find one.

The one Bullitt I have seen that did Gates+Rohloff used the Luna skeletonized 130 BCD adapter plus a 2mm spacer, mounting the chainring on the inside of the adapter to get alignment right.

My oldest Bullitt uses an 11s SRAM GX drivetrain. 11-42T steel Sunrace CSMS7 cluster. I really appreciate the additional gear choices I get with 11s as I am a lifelong cyclist and just the right cadence is everything to me.

But for a workhorse, my newer Bullitt gets daily use in 10-16% hills with a 10s Microshift Advent X derailleur. Advent X hardened steel cluster is $46 and pinned together. On the Bullitt's tight rear triangle, I can use all but the outermost cogs and keep chain line what I consider to be livable (outermost are both usable but skip under extremes so I stay away from them). DT 350 Classic rear hub gives ratchet engagement and a steel cassette which are two more ingredients for a drivetrain that lives forever under a 30a/52v BBSHD.

If I were to build another one (not happening) I would either do this inexpensive drivetrain again or take out a mortgage for a Rohloff+Gates setup.

MoneyPit said:

My oldest Bullitt uses an 11s SRAM GX drivetrain. 11-42T steel Sunrace CSMS7 cluster. I really appreciate the additional gear choices I get with 11s as I am a lifelong cyclist and just the right cadence is everything to me.

But for a workhorse, my newer Bullitt gets daily use in 10-16% hills with a 10s Microshift Advent X derailleur. Advent X hardened steel cluster is $46 and pinned together.

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E-bikes that are stronger than their riders don't need a lot of gear choices; they only need an overall range to match conditions. Really you can get by just fine with two gears: one for when you're using the motor and one for when you're not.

So for durability, fault tolerance, low cost replacement parts, and more than adequate choice of gears, I recommend Microshift Acolyte 8. They offer 11-38, 12-42 and 12-46 cassettes for less than $30. You can get the whole system for less than the cost of a single round of 11sp consumables, and they'll work better for longer with less intervention.

Chalo said:

E-bikes that are stronger than their riders don't need a lot of gear choices; they only need an overall range to match conditions. Really you can get by just fine with two gears: one for when you're using the motor and one for when you're not.

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The fewer cogs thing only applies if you are a throttler, not a cyclist. Sure the bike is physically capable of it, but a huge part of ride enjoyment for many is the work put in. The zen zoneout you get from getting that just right. Without that, I may as well just drive a car. Thats a personal observation so if you like riding and throttling more power to you. We need more riders on the road regardless of their choice of locomotion so bring on the Super73 crowd and welcome! But you are describing something that only applies to one form of personal riding preference. Its not a rule that works across the board.

There is also one serious caveat: If you try that 2 gear theory in the 10-16% grades we have here on the coast you will learn you overstated your case. At least insofar as BBSHD-level mid drive power is concerned. A cargo bike living in steep hills gets a triple whammy (heavy bike, heavy cargo load, steep hill) with respect to duty cycle. You will either be unable to climb the hill or you will snap/taco something. See this? Thats 110 lbs of gravel.



Doesn't look like much but add to that my 235 bs (265 when this pic was taken) and probably 90 lbs of electrified Bullitt plus chain lock and misc tools. Total system weight works out to 465 lbs (factory Bullitt wheels limit its max rating to 400 lbs). Thats not going to make it up a real hill with just a 30a/52v BBSHD unless you have gears made for it. The Acolyte you are talking about limits out at 42T. Thats not enough considering the Bullitt will not let you use at least the innermost cog, which in turn means in an ideal world you will use the next one down, which is a 32T. Thats a big drop.

Here look at the chain line on the bike being discussed by us all here. Front chainring is a 40T Lekkie Pro with the motor filing mod so I get the max inboard offset. You can forget about using your two biggest cogs on any cluster with a load on a hill. I know because I tried and failed. I succeeded by using a 42T Luna Eclipse which gives me IIRC another 3mm of offset and thats what it took to get back the second-biggest cog.



Attempts to make it work varying both the derailleur and cluster:

Green is good. Yellow is livable. Red is too skewed to be a smart choice. I first ran the Box derailleur and cluster, then went Advent X and it still skipped, but did so on the front. So I changed to a Luna with its long teeth and a little more offset, which resulted in this. Top config is the success story:

Chalo said:

So for durability, fault tolerance, low cost replacement parts, and more than adequate choice of gears, I recommend Microshift Acolyte 8. They offer 11-38, 12-42 and 12-46 cassettes for less than $30. You can get the whole system for less than the cost of a single round of 11sp consumables, and they'll work better for longer with less intervention.

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If you build the bike right, nothing wears out in advance. If it does thats the rider/builder doing it wrong and blaming the equipment (or hotrodding it but thats fine we all know what we are in for when we dial power up to 11). My 11s Bullitt has 4500 miles on it and its still on the original chain (I am cheating because it is also 2wd but still...). My 10s Bullitt just crossed 2000 miles in its first year and same deal, but it gets brutal treatment.


I wouldn't argue against an Acolyte drivetrain IF it is as workmanlike and reliable as their Advent and Advent X. but then again I wouldn't use Acolyte if I could install Advent, Advent X delivers better usability and all of them are inexpensive. I'll also reiterate there is no reason to limit yourself to 8-speed unless there is some specific need on an individual bicycle. As demonstrated above one solution cannot be argued to fit all. And frankly there is no substitute for quality, so its ok not to scrape from the bottom of the barrel so long as you are buying smart.

There are plenty of durable options out there. My 11s Big Fat Dummy is going to receive a $28 Shimano Linkglide chain this weekend and if it turns out to be survivable, that means DIY'rs can enjoy a cheap 11s mid drive chain that can be paired with smarter 11s choices than Shimano's Linkglide cash-grab.

MoneyPit said:

The fewer cogs thing only applies if you are a throttler, not a cyclist. Sure the bike is physically capable of it, but a huge part of ride enjoyment for many is the work put in.

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Keep in mind that some of us were getting around by bike for decades before e-bikes were even available to us. Often on single speed bikes, by choice.

My heaviest cargo e-bike has 5 gears. I didn't have that one when I lived in Seattle which is much steeper than Austin, but my first e-bike in Seattle was a single speed. It had a 400W brushed motor that could not do the hills by itself, at all. I used a few unpowered single speeds there for transportation, a 5 speed bike, and a few internal gear bikes. They weren't limiting to me, and they didn't have closely spaced gears.

I was rolling my own "one-by" drivetrains more than 30 years ago, with 12-38t 7-speed freewheels.

The benefits of closely spaced gears are much overstated. They become even more of a silly indulgence when there's a motor to help out. That's when the low-gear-count benefits of durability, reliability, low maintenance, and low cost all begin to outweigh the pointless head trip of closely spaced gears.

E-bikes have a sweet spot cruising speed based on their motor power and the rider's. So you can have a gear that works at that speed, and an easier gear (or four or six) for when you're struggling or sauntering instead of cruising. None of it requires expensive, wear-prone, fault-intolerant narrow chain and superfluous stacks of sprockets.

After 8 speed, the gearing race has only been good for eventually delivering some This Is Spinal Tap jokes, and separating fools from money.

Chalo said:

Keep in mind that some of us were getting around by bike for decades before e-bikes were even available to us. Often on single speed bikes, by choice.

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I started bike commuting in I think 1978 when I was a sophomore in high school, from home Sunnyvale to job in Palo Alto, California. Stopped keeping a mileage log in the early 1990's, at about 112,000. Crazy that is now like 30 years ago. I used an analog bike as sole transportation until I was well out of college. 1987 I think. Built my first frame-up bike in 1984. This one, which I resurrected last year.



I'll skip the rest of the resume because the "I'm so smart because I've done it all" stuff it is all just dick-measuring internet forum BS.

When I post I try and show the background information that led to a decision or action, in such a way as to let someone think through the problem themselves and either follow my logic, or see a flaw in my reasoning... which is grounds for valid discussion.

Chalo said:

The benefits of closely spaced gears are much overstated.

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By who? You won't find cyclists making this argument. Look at the gear cluster on the bike above. Its a product of another era, but in the back it has very nearly what was known as a "straight block": one bigger tooth only per gear cog. With the 2x front chainring you want very small changes to gearing to maintain consistent cadence. And in cycling, cadence is enormously important.

That bike also has a triple front crankset which unfortunately was my inexperience wanting to try something new: Close ratios with a hill gear thrown in, which I needed because the Lower Sierras are only a few miles outside of the table-flat California Central Valley. I didn't understand chain alignment yet. It did work with the unique derailleur I had on the back but there's a reason a straight block ordinarily was used only with 2x chainrings.

Ebiking is generally not cycling and if you don't understand or appreciate the different perspective thats fine. To each their own and enjoy your own style of riding.

Chalo said:

They become even more of a silly indulgence when there's a motor to help out.

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see... you're just being obnoxious here and not actually saying anything useful.

Chalo said:

None of it requires expensive, wear-prone, fault-intolerant narrow chain and superfluous stacks of sprockets.

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Factually incorrect on the fault intolerance. Modern chains up to 11s are perfectly suitable for a powerful (up to 1750w lets say, for a 30a BBSHD) mid drive that gets its ass beat daily. Not the skeletonized lightweight ones. And the 'sprockets' are only superfluous if you don't care to use them. Thats just you talking and no judgment. You ride as you please. But there's no justification to claim that limitation is somehow beneficial. I went from my standard 9s mid drive bikes to 11s almost by accident and the improvement in the riding experience was so dramatic I've never gone back.

Seeing as 12s is the norm now in mtb's, its not like I'm the only guy who has figured this out.

Chalo said:

After 8 speed, the gearing race has only been good for eventually delivering some This Is Spinal Tap jokes, and separating fools from money.

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Just obnoxiousness again.

I've never had an issue changing a tire on one of my hub motors, personally. They all had a quick disconnect connector for the cable near the wheel. Just have to pop that out before and back in after.

Can't say the Nexus IGH on my acoustic bike ever was trouble changing tires either. There's a hexagon shaped nut screwed down on the shift cable. It pops out the back of Nexus to release the cable, then pops back on again. If it does need adjustment, it's always just been putting it in gear 4 and twirling the cable adjuster on the shifter until two yellow dots line up. Way easier than adjusting a derailleur.

Personally, if you need easiest to operate like was asked for in the OP, I'd go with a hub motor. Mid drives lack power and need a brainiac like one of the guys above to always give it the right gear. Hubs tend to be throttle and go. I just leave my hub drive ebike in highest gear 99% of the time since the motor does fine starting from stops and my only job is to assist while at top speed on the occasional hill or going flat out, both of which require a high gear so you can pedal slow, but still contribute at 30mph. Anything else, the motor handles fine without me.

MoneyPit said:

Look at the gear cluster on the bike above. Its a product of another era, but in the back it has very nearly what was known as a "straight block": one bigger tooth only per gear cog.

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Yes! There was pointless vanity nonsense for poseurs back then, too.

MoneyPit said:

Factually incorrect on the fault intolerance. Modern chains up to 11s are perfectly suitable for a

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Really? When I started working in bike shops and 7 speed cassettes were the new hotness nobody could live without, we aligned derailleur hangers with a crescent wrench by eye, but they almost never needed it. Now it takes a special tool and you have to do it regularly or your goes-to-eleven junk won't shift worth a damn. It's a routine part of tuneups now, which would have been a laughable notion then.

Same with chain elongation (we wrapped the chain around the big sprocket and checked how far it would pull away from the front), polished and coated cables, B tension adjustment (one of my early shop managers told me I should screw them all the way in), etc. The stuff we had worked almost all the time with minimal intervention and extensive wear, and it still does. But new stuff needs its hand held and you have to drive it to school in the car because it's too tender for the real world.

I am here to tell you. Easy and changing bike tires is a matter of experience. I don't stress it, hell, buddy of mine saw me stop to deal with a flat, I walked into a shop to grab a beverage and by the time I was out, it was pulled, patched and he was bolting it back on the bike. I can do the same actions, but the beverage was because I was about to spend 45 minutes dinking with it. A portion of this is the fact that I have a disability that makes leaning too far over dangerous, my right hip is shot so I can only barely squat and I regularly lose sensation in my left hand. Before all this, not a problem, coulda done that job in a clean 40 minutes... Because I never patch things while riding, I get my bikes transported home and put em on the bench. And yes, I live a life where that is my norm. Chalo does it different but that mad man bikes to and from work daily. I never tried, my average commute was about 50 miles, and fairly often broke 500. Hard to bike to another state...

So whenever you are evaluating things, remember, there is a PLETHORA of skill sets out there. Not all bikes are made equal, and if you have advanced skills and knowledge and something is a pain in the arse, for some people that became a mountain they just can not climb.

Hence during the spring/summer, my garage door opens and eventually a kid with a derailed chain or a flat comes by. I am not a shop, but I am the best they have access to here.

Chalo said:

Yes! There was pointless vanity nonsense for poseurs back then, too.


Now it takes a special tool and you have to do it regularly or your goes-to-eleven junk won't shift worth a damn. It's a routine part of tuneups now, which would have been a laughable notion then.

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Its laughable now. I've never had to do that personally, and in order for a derailleur cage to go out of alignment it has to be smashed out of alignment by hitting a rock or something. I mean... what other force would cause a hanger on ANY derailleur to go out of alignment? They certainly don't misalign themselves. You are leaving that part out, I suspect because it doesn't agree with the colorful narrative you are pushing.

Chalo said:

Same with chain elongation (we wrapped the chain around the big sprocket and checked how far it would pull away from the front), polished and coated cables, B tension adjustment (one of my early shop managers told me I should screw them all the way in), etc. The stuff we had worked almost all the time with minimal intervention and extensive wear, and it still does. But new stuff needs its hand held and you have to drive it to school in the car because it's too tender for the real world.

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This is, again, baloney. I've got... let's see: SRAM GX 11s. A SRAM 9s, Shimano Deore 9s, Microshift 9s, Microshift 10s and Box 9s with Microshift, Box, Shimano and Sunrace clusters up to 52T in size. None of these drivetrains need any of the things you are describing over many thousands of miles.

Oh and I have a SRAM EX1 8s and if anything it is the problem child of the bunch, mostly because the stupidly expensive tool steel cluster was not sold as a pinned-together monolithic single piece like say a Shimano HG-400 would be. That was a function of me needing a pie plate 48T steel cluster for a 4000w motor in a world where at the time none of the big steelies existed yet that we take for granted now. No need to spend like that in 2024 or even a year or two before that.

All this ranting about what should be mundane bicycle parts that are highly reliable is coming because you're all-in/invested in pushing a win in the argument you started. As a know-it-all myself (who doesn't), I recognize the attitude.

A more truthful take on wear and tear is that if you are beating the living $hit out of the bike, sure stuff can bend. But thats what it takes to do that. Quality parts don't just fall apart on their own. They need your help from a bad builder, mechanic or rider who is wringing everything out of the toy they are playing with. Has absolutely bupkis to do with the relative sophistication of the parts.

MoneyPit said:

All this ranting about what should be mundane bicycle parts that are highly reliable is coming because you're all-in/invested in pushing a win in the argument you started.

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It's coming from somebody who works on other people's bikes every day. I mostly don't know their history. I do know that 6sp index always works, 7sp index almost always works, and so forth, until 11 speed almost never works by the time it hits my workstand. And it's almost always a lot newer, with lower miles, than the stuff that does. You can draw your own conclusions from that; I have.

If other peiople can do it just fine and you can't, maybe the equipment is not what is to blame.

11s, 4500 miles at present. No adjustments since the bike was built in 2021. This pic taken April 2021. And yes 52T up front is weird but its all flat land and to get my preferred cadence I am never less than three cogs in, and often 4. So chain line is straight and stress on the steel rear cluster is minimal.


11s, about 3000 miles. Went into service June 2020. Also no adjustments and it still has the original KMC e11 chain. SRAM derailleur has never been adjusted. Since the 5.05" 2XL tires that went on the day of this pic take away the top 2 cogs on this 11-46T cassette, I am changing to an 11-51t, probably tomorrow. Changing to a Shimano Linkglide chain at the same time so I can match the wear to the new cluster, so that means I will retire this chain before it ever wears out..


9s. Only about 1000 miles. First ride Apr 2022 Same deal no adjustments and original SRAM EX1 chain, steel Microshift Advent cluster. Box 2 derailleur.


9s. I did this bike in I think 2017. This pic was 2022. Shimano derailleur, cheap HG400 steel cluster. KMC 9e chain. The only bike I ever put a gear sensor on. Same story still works just fine unadjusted and nothing has ever broken.


This one was built in 2018. Was my daily commuter for awhile. Has been garaged for the last couple of years after I changed out the fork, which turned out to be a bad choice, and then had a front motor failure (I've finally found a replacement and just need the time to do the work). But you can see the Box2 derailleur and big 9s Microshift steel cluster. KMC 'e' chain. That drivetrain only has about 500 miles on it, but the Shimano that was on it before was in the 3000 range before I went big to be able to do remote beach runs with complete confidence. And again same broken record story about no adjustments needed, although I did crack an alloy cog right at 1000 miles that I had to replace ($7).


All this is not to deny some riders ride bikes in such a way, or don't care for them, so stuff can break. But thats another thing entirely from your claims above that damn the equipment as a whole... which is nonsense.

I would go with the hub in front idea on a bike like this. Way less stuff to break. Looks like a 20" wheel up front which would mean you'd make awesome power out of a DD.

Nexus 3 speeds are regarded as very strong and people have put many kW into them without much worry. Could work if you don't have super hilly conditions.

neptronix said:

I would go with the hub in front idea on a bike like this. Way less stuff to break. Looks like a 20" wheel up front which would mean you'd make awesome power out of a DD.

Nexus 3 speeds are regarded as very strong and people have put many kW into them without much worry. Could work if you don't have super hilly conditions.

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Both of mine are 2wd with geared front hub motors that are 45Nm each. Pretty small. However I have seen Bullitts that use bigger direct drive models (still around 45 nm), and even one that repurposed a complete 3kw electric unicycle wheel where the motor was so big it was almost the entire wheel. The guys who go big on motor power do it on the rear wheel from what I have seen.

The manufacturer, Larry vs Harry, came out very strongly against front wheel motors because of the heavy loads put on this kind of bike. They cite damage to the headset and (QR) forks. But in the years I have been a part of the online Bullitt community I have never seen anything like that actually happen. I use a Viscoset front headset (which keeps a death wobble from happening to some Bullitts) and a couple of Grin v2 torque arms and no issues despite some very heavy loads and fast speeds.


I have heard the same thing on Nexus 3: That its a viable option so long as the hills aren't too big given the 3-speed limit.

ElectroWoodGuy said:

I haven't installed that BBSHD in my Bullitt yet, had our 2nd kiddo put a delay in the tinkering. I've been reading about IGH and wondering if adding that to a BBSHD would be a good idea and doable?

From some early reading, a Nexus 5 has been suggested do it handling more torque than a Nexus 7 or Alfine. I then came across Sturmey Archer 3 and 5 gear hubs. Rohloff would be too $$$ sadly.

What what route be the best and what route would be the easiest to operate? I hope to take and/or pick my kids up in the bike during the summer and maybe early fall. Have an edgerunner I plan to convert for the wife so I we can all bike more.

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I’d say go for the new torque sensing BBSHD, M635. Less jerky reaction to pedalling and safer with passengers. And Alfine 8 seems to be well-paired to BBSHD.