2014 Specialized Stumpjumper & Luna Cyclone 3000w

[MarkLeeds]

Really like this build, am planning on doing something very similar with a specialized enduro which has 26 inch wheels like your stumpy. I wonder if you could tell me your thoughts on gearing. The enduro model only has one front sprocket and it would great to get something in the right ball bark when ordering. Also, what are are your thoughts on backpack weight. Obviously smaller is better, but what makes a good compromise. Exactly what are you using at moment and how is it working out for you? Many thanks and sorry for all the questions.

 

[Phife]

Hey MarkLeeds,

Feel free to ask away!

On the gearing subject, I dont really use this bike for commuting so I have it geared for for hill climbing, offroard, single track. Initially, i used the stock 44T chainring that comes with the kit, nothing really wrong with it, just wanted to change it to a narrow wide chainring so I got a Raceface 38T. I have an 11-34T 10 speed cassette on the back. This gearing was a bit too torquey, it could climb anything but was hard to get started on a hill. I think this has more to do with the stock throttle response on the Cyclone, its really very jerky and not smooth like BBS02. Im going to see about using another controller to I can program the throttle response. Top speed with this gearing was around 50kph.

Im currently using a 42T narrow wide chainring, I like it better, a little less torque but much better overall. If your just commuting and not offroading then you'll probably be fine with the stock chainrings. Speeds at around 55kph.

As for backpack weight, I got a 10lbs 52V 20Ah battery in my backpack. Its a bit on the heavy side, Id say 10lbs is the max, 5-6lbs and 10-12Ah would be a better fit for my riding style. Im getting tried of lugging that battery around but its much better on my back than on the bike for offroad riding. When Im doing long distance or road riding I put the battery on a seatpost rack. If you're gonna use a backpack, be sure to get a good one line the Evoc Trail pack, or something with a wide belly strap, it really helps distribute the weight and keeps things from moving around too much.

Ive done some mods and upgrades to my bike since my last post here, so I think an update is in order. I will take some more pics of my bike and update this thread with more details sometime this weekend.

 

[MarkLeeds]

Hi Phife,

Thanks very much for that - all extremely useful to me. I plan to use it for single track stuff as well so you have saved me a lot of time and money.

Re the gearing, just to confirm - your gearing is as follows :

14 tooth on the motor to 42T bottom bracket (44 inner bottom bracket sprocket is standard)
48T to 11-34T 10 speed cassette on the back wheel


Also, I had hoped to use this bike in muddy conditions - have you tried? Any trouble with the "waterproof" motor/ controller? Any other tips you might have would be great.

 

[robocam]

You may want to use the kit in its stock form before you change anything. You may find that it works fine as is. If you have an option to choose, select the 44/44 crankset. Right now on my 29er that I use for technical trail riding, I'm using a 13 tooth on the motor (this is the stock tooth count) to a 44 on the crankset. From there it drives a 38 to my 11-42 cassette (I rarely use the 42 or 36 unless I have a very steep climb, and I want to go up really fast). A 38T chainring on a 29er is equivalent to a 44T on a 26er. I find that this gives me a good ratio for pedaling with the motor if I want to, and it works great on motor assist alone as well.

Are you going to order a cassette too? If I were starting from scratch, I'd consider the Shimano 11-46 (because why not? the wider the ratio the better). Are you planning to always use the motor, or do you want to be able to pedal only? This will determine the chainring size to use. But I think that if you're always going to have the motor available, starting with a 44 is a good idea (unless your cassette's largest sprocket is smaller than a 36).

But if you already have a cassette, what gear range does it have?

Fortunately, I've had no issues with the linearity of the throttle. I just wish it would respond more quickly so that I can have better control over wheelies.

Make sure you mount the controller with the wires facing the ground so that water doesn't enter around the wires.

Hi Phife,

Thanks very much for that - all extremely useful to me. I plan to use it for single track stuff as well so you have saved me a lot of time and money.

Re the gearing, just to confirm - your gearing is as follows :

14 tooth on the motor to 42T bottom bracket (44 inner bottom bracket sprocket is standard)
48T to 11-34T 10 speed cassette on the back wheel


Also, I had hoped to use this bike in muddy conditions - have you tried? Any trouble with the "waterproof" motor/ controller? Any other tips you might have would be great.

 

[Remi812]

Hi Phife,

I really like your bike, it is a similar setup as mine (see the picture attached) except that the motor is mounted below the downtube on mine. I am currently having freewheel issues at high load (making a sound like a pawl is skipping a tooth) and I can't tell which freewheel is causing the issue. It sounds like it is coming from the rear hub (cassette freehub) but it could also be the motor freewheel that is failing. What rear freehub are you using ? I tried different wheelset (Mavic, Novatech) and it still sounds like it cannot handle the torque. I have ordered a new motor freewheel from SBP (14T HD) I am using the stock 13T right now hopefully that fixes everything but I doubt it. I might have to buy a new rear hub like a DT Swiss 350 with a star ratchet instead of a pawl system.
Note that I am now running the new 60amp Cyclone Bluetooth controller from Luna so the torque figure is a little bit higher.

 

[Remi812]

I also forgot to mention that I am very interested in your 3D printing for the mount. We have a printer at work and I would love to try it out. If you could share both of your models (the motor + the mount) that would be awesome!

 

[drew12345]

Phife, that's so cool how you mounted in frame. Not sure if I seen many like that. Nice work. Sorry if I missed it, but did you do anything special for mounting it there?

 

[drew12345]

Remi, when I used to have cyclone, it would skip in smallest sprockets in rear. It was too much power. You have to ramp up gently if you want to use small sprocket. If on larger sprockets, it was fine to use more power. From what I read at time, everyone recommended to not use 11t.

 

[robocam]

That's interesting. I've never had that problem. What voltage and current were you running? What tooth counts did you have on your crankset? How old was your cassette?

Remi, when I used to have cyclone, it would skip in smallest sprockets in rear. It was too much power. You have to ramp up gently if you want to use small sprocket. If on larger sprockets, it was fine to use more power. From what I read at time, everyone recommended to not use 11t.

 

[robocam]

It could be that your motor chain is skipping over the teeth of the motor sprocket. This has happened to me before. Try increasing the tension of the spring on the idler sprocket. I'm curious about the 14T as well. The extra tooth might help with the chain skipping if that's the issue. The larger diameter would also reduce the chain tension, less torque.

Gman is running 90A at 72V through his setup, so I'd be surprised if your freehub/freewheel is giving you issues. It would seem that if something was skipping inside a freewheel, it would be destroyed immediately and freewheel in both directions.

But I'm really curious about the controller! How do you like it compared to the stock Cyclone controller? Does the throttle still respond in a delayed fashion, or is it more responsive? The delayed throttle makes controlling wheelies very difficult. Can you set current limits? What kind of stuff can you change? Is the Bluetooth control seamless?

...I am currently having freewheel issues at high load (making a sound like a pawl is skipping a tooth) and I can't tell which freewheel is causing the issue. It sounds like it is coming from the rear hub (cassette freehub) but it could also be the motor freewheel that is failing. What rear freehub are you using ? I tried different wheelset (Mavic, Novatech) and it still sounds like it cannot handle the torque. I have ordered a new motor freewheel from SBP (14T HD) I am using the stock 13T right now hopefully that fixes everything but I doubt it. I might have to buy a new rear hub like a DT Swiss 350 with a star ratchet instead of a pawl system.
Note that I am now running the new 60amp Cyclone Bluetooth controller from Luna so the torque figure is a little bit higher.

 

[robocam]

I just thought of another solution for chain skipping. You will need a new motor chain, and make it as long as possible so that the idler can wrap it around as much of the motor freewheel as possible. This along with a higher idler spring tension should reduce the skipping.

 

[Remi812]

Thanks Robocam for your ideas. I really don't think it is a chain issue, it really sounds like the rear freehub is skipping a tooth. I need to borrow a GoPro so I can see what's actually happening.
I am running a 52V 30q battery from luna and the new controller is rated for 60amp. I don't use a CA so I can't say how much amps my motor gets, my BMS is rated for 50amps continuous 80amps burst. I definitely feel much more torque compared to the stock 40amp. My motor sprocket is a 13T linked to a 44T stock crankset and then a 32T goes to a 10-speed cassette (11-36) with 29" wheels. It starts skipping teeth in the middle range of the cassette and gets worse going smaller. Everything is in good shape the chain tension seems good, I never lost a chain.

I am pretty happy with the 60amp controller. Once you have the right password, the Bluetooth connection works flawlessly. I'd say there is still a bit of a delay for the throttle response but it never bothered me too much, after some practice I am able to wheely quite easily. I have not played too much with the Bluetooth feature but I know you can limit the amps, calibrate the throttle response, set a low voltage cut off and do some other stuff like enable reverse. The controller can work without the Bluetooth module attached (that was my main concern since the Bluetooth module is not waterproof. You can download the app (called Emotor on iOS) and go through the list of settings to give you better idea.

 

[robocam]

Sure thing. Since you describe the problem getting worse on the smaller cogs, it seems to point away from the freehub, since using the larger cogs would put more torque on the mechanism. I wonder if the chain is skipping over the cassette cogs. Have you tried to make it skip while holding the brake with the bike on a stand (this could be risky though since it could damage your chainstay)? How old is the cassette? Is there any tooth wear? How old is the chain? Have you checked its stretch?

I have a 29er as well, and I used to use a 32 to drive the cassette. I've since changed to a 38, and I find it makes it easier to pedal with the motor on the trails (but I also added a Wolf Tooth 42T sprocket). If you do that (change to a 38), maybe it would reduce the chain tension enough to stop that from happening.

I'm curious about your actual amp draw. I wonder how long the BMS will pass 60 amps before it cuts power. Before I got my Cycle Analyst, I had one of those $25 inline meters. Maybe you could try one of those if you're curious.

Maybe I'll try using the rear brake to help me with wheelies. I want to learn how to manual as well =)

Thanks for the info about the controller. I'm so tempted to buy it just to play with it.

Thanks Robocam for your ideas. I really don't think it is a chain issue, it really sounds like the rear freehub is skipping a tooth. I need to borrow a GoPro so I can see what's actually happening.
I am running a 52V 30q battery from luna and the new controller is rated for 60amp. I don't use a CA so I can't say how much amps my motor gets, my BMS is rated for 50amps continuous 80amps burst. I definitely feel much more torque compared to the stock 40amp. My motor sprocket is a 13T linked to a 44T stock crankset and then a 32T goes to a 10-speed cassette (11-36) with 29" wheels. It starts skipping teeth in the middle range of the cassette and gets worse going smaller. Everything is in good shape the chain tension seems good, I never lost a chain.

I am pretty happy with the 60amp controller. Once you have the right password, the Bluetooth connection works flawlessly. I'd say there is still a bit of a delay for the throttle response but it never bothered me too much, after some practice I am able to wheely quite easily. I have not played too much with the Bluetooth feature but I know you can limit the amps, calibrate the throttle response, set a low voltage cut off and do some other stuff like enable reverse. The controller can work without the Bluetooth module attached (that was my main concern since the Bluetooth module is not waterproof. You can download the app (called Emotor on iOS) and go through the list of settings to give you better idea.

 

[broke]

I bet it's skipping in the back I've seen it a couple times with that motor

 

[mdkmr2]

Very nice build! Soo clean too!

 

[Remi812]

Some news about my freehub issue. I received today a brand new rim: DT SWISS M1700 with a star ratchet freehub instead of a pawl system. When I took the cassette out I noticed that the 4 smaller sprockets were in pretty bad shape. I quickly realized that the new rim was not going to fix anything...I should have listened to you guys

To fix the problem I am going to order a 38T chainring so I will be using a bigger sprocket to get the same gear ratio (more teeth to handle the torque). If you guys have any advice for a heavy duty cassette let me know, this is next on my shopping list.

Sorry Phife for the off topic :?

 

[robocam]

I'm sure we're all guilty of going against the advice of others at times =) As long as we're learning. I'm just glad you figured out what the problem was. Can you return the new rim?

Getting a bigger chainring is a good idea. What were you using before?

I think any Shimano cassette should be fine. The less expensive models are usually made of steel which may be stronger. But if you get something like their 11-46 or their 11-42 plus a 50T OneUp cog, that might work too, since you'll be able to keep your low gear but run the chain much faster by using the larger chainring up front. On cassettes with large sprockets, the larger ones are often made of aluminum, but since they have so many teeth, they should be fine, and you didn't have problems with your cassette's larger sprockets as well.

You're replacing your chain too right?

Some news about my freehub issue. I received today a brand new rim: DT SWISS M1700 with a star ratchet freehub instead of a pawl system. When I took the cassette out I noticed that the 4 smaller sprockets were in pretty bad shape. I quickly realized that the new rim was not going to fix anything...I should have listened to you guys

To fix the problem I am going to order a 38T chainring so I will be using a bigger sprocket to get the same gear ratio (more teeth to handle the torque). If you guys have any advice for a heavy duty cassette let me know, this is next on my shopping list.

Sorry Phife for the off topic :?

 

[robocam]

Is the app made by Jingtek? There are 2 apps called Emotor, so I just wanted to make sure. I tried downloading it, but I don't see any screen where I can change settings. Can you upload a screenshot of what the settings screen looks like?

... You can download the app (called Emotor on iOS) and go through the list of settings to give you better idea.

 

[Remi812]

No it is without a dash, from hangZhou

 

[Remi812]

Then you click on "device list" to enter demo mode.
Then you click on "me" at the bottom and go to system setting.

 

[robocam]

Thank you so much! I had just assumed it was the other one since this was all in Chinese.

Wow, I wonder what all those settings do (overspeed, boost, adj accelerator curve). I think I want it! How does it feel compared to the Cyclone's stock controller other than the obvious difference due to the higher current?

Oh, and if you want to, you can continue this over in this thread.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=84041

Then you click on "device list" to enter demo mode.
Then you click on "me" at the bottom and go to system setting.

 

[Remi812]

The Bluetooth controller feels exactly the same as the stock one but with more torque. I haven't played much with the settings though.
Regarding my chain skipping tooth issue, it is all fixed now. I went with a bigger chainring, replaced the chain and cassette, and it is all smooth now
I also saved some weight by replacing the stock steel chainring and it looks so much better now !
I bought the aluminum spider from SBP and it is light and robust. The chain guard was to me ugly and kinda useless.

 

[robocam]

Nice! Can you show a larger picture of your chainring or a closeup of it? I want to see how you integrated the spider with the chainrings. I'm thinking about doing something like that.

I do like that the chain guard keeps the oily chain from touching my leg, but I guess it won't kill me if my leg gets dirty. The things we do to look better.

The Bluetooth controller feels exactly the same as the stock one but with more torque. I haven't played much with the settings though.
Regarding my chain skipping tooth issue, it is all fixed now. I went with a bigger chainring, replaced the chain and cassette, and it is all smooth now
I also saved some weight by replacing the stock steel chainring and it looks so much better now !
I bought the aluminum spider from SBP and it is light and robust. The chain guard was to me ugly and kinda useless.

 

[jk1]

Postby Remi812 » Mon Oct 17, 2016 12:35 pm

The Bluetooth controller feels exactly the same as the stock one but with more torque. I haven't played much with the settings though.
Regarding my chain skipping tooth issue, it is all fixed now. I went with a bigger chainring, replaced the chain and cassette, and it is all smooth now
I also saved some weight by replacing the stock steel chainring and it looks so much better now !

I don't think the aluminium chain rings are up to 3kw of power from this motor.. if they do work they will most likely last a very short time. Even on normal road peddle bikes aluminium has a low life compared to cheap steel chain wheels. At 3kw or more power i think the AFT chainrings has the best design :
http://www.aft-ebike.com/c3000w.html
With the aluminium bashguard with the thicker steel chairnings but they have hollowed them out to lower the weight. That would be the best of both worlds light but long life steel.

 

[robocam]

The AFT chainrings are still the heavy thick Cyclone chainrings with a few holes drilled into them. You can use regular steel chainrings, which are much lighter.

...i think the AFT chainrings has the best design :...With the aluminium bashguard with the thicker steel chairnings but they have hollowed them out to lower the weight. That would be the best of both worlds light but long life steel.