46160 (46mm diameter, 160mm length) NMC chemistry 31Ah 3.7V (4.2V charge cutoff) cells any good?

[Marco Milano]

I keep running across these cells on AliExpress and AliBaba.


They are described as lithium-ion chemistry, but I keep getting inconsistent data sheets from vendors, so I am really worried about ordering them.
Did some of you endlessly-smart people experiment with them? Are they worth the investment?
Are they really NMC chemistry, or are they LiFePO4?

 

[999zip999]

How much?

 

[Marco Milano]

How much?

Approx. 400€ for 13 cells. Shipping and customs included. It comes out to approx. 31€ each cell. I need 26 pieces. Too much to comfortably order them without complete and consistent specs.

 

[999zip999]

Where you at what country are you from ?
Yes that's a lot of money as I look for automotive grade packs from places like battery hookup. But they offer a lot of Hope and not too much product for my higher needs only 80amps

 

[Marco Milano]

Where you at what country are you from ?
Yes that's a lot of money as I look for automotive grade packs from places like battery hookup. But they offer a lot of Hope and not too much product for my higher needs only 80amps

I am from Milan, Italy.
Pack is for an e-bicycle. 30 Ah is enough capacity.

 

[floydr]

Looks to be 11.80-12.80 usd (not sure on € pricing) each minimum order 20 scroll down to the datasheet on 46160 3.7v 31ah Cylinder Ncm Lithium Rechargeable Batteries Li-ion Nmc Battery For Electric Scooter - Buy Nmc Ncm 46160 3.7v 31ah High Power Rechargeable Lifepo4 32131 3.2v 13ah Battery Cell In Stock,Nmc 46160 3.7v 31ah Lifepo4 33140 3.2v 15ah 32135 Rechargeable Battery Cell For Power Tool 32131 3.2v 13ah,Nmc 46160 3.7v 31ah 32131 3.2v 13ah Lifepo4 33140 3.2v 15ah 32135 Cylindrical Lithium Battery Cell Product on Alibaba.com 26 cells could be a 96.2Vnom 31Ah pack or a 48.1Vnom 62Ah pack
If the 400€ is a quote for 13 cells =30.76€ a cell if 400€ is for 20 cells =20€ a cell. I would increase to 14s1p pack if getting 20 cells and have 6 left over
Later floyd

 

[999zip999]

Oh yeah a 124amp cell.
Somebody's going to have to be a guinea pig.
I've had a123 20ah 200 amp cell and
Spaim08 8ah cell 200amp
So it is possible.
How many amp your controller ?

 

[Marco Milano]

Looks to be 11.80-12.80 usd (not sure on € pricing) each minimum order 20 scroll down to the datasheet on 46160 3.7v 31ah Cylinder Ncm Lithium Rechargeable Batteries Li-ion Nmc Battery For Electric Scooter - Buy Nmc Ncm 46160 3.7v 31ah High Power Rechargeable Lifepo4 32131 3.2v 13ah Battery Cell In Stock,Nmc 46160 3.7v 31ah Lifepo4 33140 3.2v 15ah 32135 Rechargeable Battery Cell For Power Tool 32131 3.2v 13ah,Nmc 46160 3.7v 31ah 32131 3.2v 13ah Lifepo4 33140 3.2v 15ah 32135 Cylindrical Lithium Battery Cell Product on Alibaba.com 26 cells could be a 96.2Vnom 31Ah pack or a 48.1Vnom 62Ah pack
If the 400€ is a quote for 13 cells =30.76€ a cell if 400€ is for 20 cells =20€ a cell. I would increase to 14s1p pack if getting 20 cells and have 6 left over
Later floyd

Thank you @floydr for your reply, this is the exact place (Alibaba) where I have inquired for the cells a few days ago.
I am interested in the Li-ion NMC chemistry (3.7V, charge cutoff at 4.2V), NOT the LiFePO4 chemistry (3.2V, charge cutoff at 3.7V).
Vendors there keep replying with inconsistent data sheets. One even told me that I could charge LiFePO4 up to 4.2V, which in my book will certainly lead to a fire.
Another one informed me that only LiFePO4 is available and only in 22Ah capacity.
A third one sent me data sheets for pouch cells…
All this is really confusing.
This is why I am asking here on ES if someone is familiar with these 46160 31Ah Li-Ion cells (4.2V charge cutoff voltage).
If someone has used these cells already, kindly let me know the vendor they were ordered from.
TIA
I need 26 of those cells to make one 96V, 30ish Ah battery pack for my e-bike. Just thought that assembling a battery with that kind of cell (with bolt-on connections) would be easier and quicker than connecting hundreds of 21700 cells for example.
Bike is now running with a 26 cell 96V (109.2V fully charged) 12.6Ah capacity Li-Po battery, fashioned from many 6.3Ah RC planes battery packs.
I am getting 70km with one charge, pedaling between 16km/h and 20km/h.
Going to a 30Ah battery pack, range will easily become 150km, allowing me to charge the pack every other day, effectively increasing battery life expectancy.

 

[Marco Milano]

Oh yeah a 124amp cell.
Somebody's going to have to be a guinea pig.
I've had a123 20ah 200 amp cell and
Spaim08 8ah cell 200amp
So it is possible.
How many amp your controller ?

Controller is a 96120 Sabvoton SVMC.
For the time being, and in order to avoid bad surprises, I left the current cutoff at the 120A factory setting.

 

[amberwolf]

Vendors there keep replying with inconsistent data sheets. One even told me that I could charge LiFePO4 up to 4.2V, which in my book will certainly lead to a fire.

Formation charge on LFP can be that high, but that's a factory thing. Sellers mistake that in the data sheet for the end-user charge limit sometimes and so put hte wrong voltage in their ad, but since they dont' usually have the datasheet on the sale page the end-user can't tell that.

Another one informed me that only LiFePO4 is available and only in 22Ah capacity.
A third one sent me data sheets for pouch cells…
All this is really confusing.

Most sellers appear to have no real idea of what they are selling, and no real info on it, especially on sites like Ali*, Ebay, Amazon, etc. Makes it tough for an end-user to find what they want unless they already know about these things and can research on their own....

The other problem with this is that since the sellers in those cases don't really know what they have, they may also not ship the correct items (may even have a different item than an ad in their warehouse and not know it).

These problems apply to all products, not just batteries and whatnot. :/

This is why I am asking here on ES if someone is familiar with these 46160 31Ah Li-Ion cells (4.2V charge cutoff voltage).

I have not seen these specific ones. I couldn't find a proper spec sheet on the page linked previously, only this page from a spec sheet listing a few of the various specs (no charge/discharge/lifetime curves or testing parameters, etc).

It does point out a few things that might be important.

They're only 31Ah at 1C, or 31A. So if you use them at higher currents you won't get the full capacity. How much you lose, you'd have to test, because their spec sheet doesn't have this info. It just says they can be used at up to 4C 124A, with a burst of unspecified length at 10C 310A.

It also doesn't say what happens if you charge them at more than the standard charge of 1C (31A), it just specifies that they could be charged at up to 3C 93A.

I need 26 of those cells to make one 96V, 30ish Ah battery pack for my e-bike. Just thought that assembling a battery with that kind of cell (with bolt-on connections) would be easier and quicker than connecting hundreds of 21700 cells for example.

It certainly is...and it should also be more reliable because of the fewer connections to fail.

Just ensure that the cells are all supported by (and different parallel groups separated by each other with) a frame and not the interconnects, so that vibration, etc does not stress the connection points either inside or outside the cells. See various Headway builds for pack build methods and precautions (they are assembled the same way).

 

[999zip999]

1. What is the amp draw of your controller ?
2. What is the size of your battery box ?

 

[Marco Milano]

Formation charge on LFP can be that high, but that's a factory thing. Sellers mistake that in the data sheet for the end-user charge limit sometimes and so put hte wrong voltage in their ad, but since they dont' usually have the datasheet on the sale page the end-user can't tell that.




Most sellers appear to have no real idea of what they are selling, and no real info on it, especially on sites like Ali*, Ebay, Amazon, etc. Makes it tough for an end-user to find what they want unless they already know about these things and can research on their own....

The other problem with this is that since the sellers in those cases don't really know what they have, they may also not ship the correct items (may even have a different item than an ad in their warehouse and not know it).

These problems apply to all products, not just batteries and whatnot. :/




I have not seen these specific ones. I couldn't find a proper spec sheet on the page linked previously, only this page from a spec sheet listing a few of the various specs (no charge/discharge/lifetime curves or testing parameters, etc).

It does point out a few things that might be important.

They're only 31Ah at 1C, or 31A. So if you use them at higher currents you won't get the full capacity. How much you lose, you'd have to test, because their spec sheet doesn't have this info. It just says they can be used at up to 4C 124A, with a burst of unspecified length at 10C 310A.

It also doesn't say what happens if you charge them at more than the standard charge of 1C (31A), it just specifies that they could be charged at up to 3C 93A.



View attachment 333164



It certainly is...and it should also be more reliable because of the fewer connections to fail.

Just ensure that the cells are all supported by (and different parallel groups separated by each other with) a frame and not the interconnects, so that vibration, etc does not stress the connection points either inside or outside the cells. See various Headway builds for pack build methods and precautions (they are assembled the same way

Formation charge on LFP can be that high, but that's a factory thing. Sellers mistake that in the data sheet for the end-user charge limit sometimes and so put hte wrong voltage in their ad, but since they dont' usually have the datasheet on the sale page the end-user can't tell that.




Most sellers appear to have no real idea of what they are selling, and no real info on it, especially on sites like Ali*, Ebay, Amazon, etc. Makes it tough for an end-user to find what they want unless they already know about these things and can research on their own....

The other problem with this is that since the sellers in those cases don't really know what they have, they may also not ship the correct items (may even have a different item than an ad in their warehouse and not know it).

These problems apply to all products, not just batteries and whatnot. :/




I have not seen these specific ones. I couldn't find a proper spec sheet on the page linked previously, only this page from a spec sheet listing a few of the various specs (no charge/discharge/lifetime curves or testing parameters, etc).

It does point out a few things that might be important.

They're only 31Ah at 1C, or 31A. So if you use them at higher currents you won't get the full capacity. How much you lose, you'd have to test, because their spec sheet doesn't have this info. It just says they can be used at up to 4C 124A, with a burst of unspecified length at 10C 310A.

It also doesn't say what happens if you charge them at more than the standard charge of 1C (31A), it just specifies that they could be charged at up to 3C 93A.



View attachment 333164



It certainly is...and it should also be more reliable because of the fewer connections to fail.

Just ensure that the cells are all supported by (and different parallel groups separated by each other with) a frame and not the interconnects, so that vibration, etc does not stress the connection points either inside or outside the cells. See various Headway builds for pack build methods and precautions (they are assembled the same way).

1. What is the amp draw of your controller ?
2. What is the size of your battery box ?

Controller can draw up to 120A, that is what it is programmed to cut off at. However this will seldom, if ever, happen, as I am looking for extended range (low current consumption) as opposed to wide open throttle maximum power.
I still have to design the battery box. I will go ahead and draw it as soon as I know the exact dimensions of these 46160 cells.

 

[Marco Milano]

Formation charge on LFP can be that high, but that's a factory thing. Sellers mistake that in the data sheet for the end-user charge limit sometimes and so put hte wrong voltage in their ad, but since they dont' usually have the datasheet on the sale page the end-user can't tell that.




Most sellers appear to have no real idea of what they are selling, and no real info on it, especially on sites like Ali*, Ebay, Amazon, etc. Makes it tough for an end-user to find what they want unless they already know about these things and can research on their own....

The other problem with this is that since the sellers in those cases don't really know what they have, they may also not ship the correct items (may even have a different item than an ad in their warehouse and not know it).

These problems apply to all products, not just batteries and whatnot. :/




I have not seen these specific ones. I couldn't find a proper spec sheet on the page linked previously, only this page from a spec sheet listing a few of the various specs (no charge/discharge/lifetime curves or testing parameters, etc).

It does point out a few things that might be important.

They're only 31Ah at 1C, or 31A. So if you use them at higher currents you won't get the full capacity. How much you lose, you'd have to test, because their spec sheet doesn't have this info. It just says they can be used at up to 4C 124A, with a burst of unspecified length at 10C 310A.

It also doesn't say what happens if you charge them at more than the standard charge of 1C (31A), it just specifies that they could be charged at up to 3C 93A.



View attachment 333164



It certainly is...and it should also be more reliable because of the fewer connections to fail.

Just ensure that the cells are all supported by (and different parallel groups separated by each other with) a frame and not the interconnects, so that vibration, etc does not stress the connection points either inside or outside the cells. See various Headway builds for pack build methods and precautions (they are assembled the same way).

Thank you @amberwolf for the detailed explanation, and for finding that data sheet.
I did figure out that vendors on Aliwhatever are not entirely aware of what they are selling, so I am really cautious when it comes to ordering cells.
I am very grateful that knowledgeable people like yourself, @floydr and @999zip999 take their time to help others with all these problems.

 

[problemaddict]

If you're still looking into these cells, there's one guy on FB who has built a big pack with them. 26s4p

User name is Ean Hubbell. Search for him in the Electric Motorcycle Builds group is this link doesn't work:

Electric Motorcycle Builds | Okay as I promised earlier in a post somewhere... | Facebook

Okay as I promised earlier in a post somewhere.... This is my winter project. ME 1507 Kelly 144v 600A controller The batteries are NMC so 3V to 4.2V with a Nominal 3.7v. (46160 31AH 10C max...

www.facebook.com

 

[Marco Milano]

Finally got around to assembling a working full scale mock-up of the battery using 26 of these 46160 31Ah cells.

I connected a 20-30 cell Ant BMS and properly configured it for 26 li-ion cells.
Unfortunately I am getting an alarm and “cell verification error” when turning on the BMS.
It looks like the BMS cannot read the voltage of cell number 16.
The alarm and warning go away when auto balancing and charging the battery, and everything seems good to go.
I have not tried the pack under load yet, as I would like to understand why the BMS cannot detect the voltage of cell number 16 when it is simply “standing by”.
The cell shows the same voltage as all the other cells using a multimeter and the balance wire from the BMS to the cell has already been replaced to no avail.
Did anyone experience the same problem?