a cost benefit comparison of lifepo4 and lipo for newbs

LFP:

Signal to noise ratio.

yours is remarkably high.

And to boot - wit and entertainment value of your posts are excellent: like the other day.

liveforphysics said:
Good call.

Lipo isn't right for everyone.

freaking nearly fell out of my chair.
 
I agree with LFP. It is not for everyone. Take the example of the guy with the 250w motor. If he's happy with that setup, then his lifepo4 pack is perfect. Why would he want more complications? he's got the range he wants and the discharge capability that his controller demands.

Prismatic Lipo allows you to pack the most watt hours and highest output capability into the smallest given area with the lowest weight, at the expense of cycle life, depending on how you manage the batteries.

When you get into high power, or you have a limited amount of space, it starts making a hell of a lot of sense. If you want low weight, then it makes even more sense. If you are OK with a charging regimen that involves checking the cell balance from time to time, then lipo is perfect for either of those situations, and lifepo4 makes less sense.

It's silly to argue about which is better, because each one really has a specific use case. You find the one you are willing to live with and deal with it's faults because there is no perfect cell chemistry as of writing.
 
liveforphysics said:
I don't bother with meanwell's any longer.

My at home chargers are a pair of these 3kw chargers in series.
http://www.serversupply.com/POWER%20SUPPLY/SERVER%20POWER%20SUPPLY/3000WATT%20REDUNDANT/HP-COMPAQ/253232-001.htm
Hey, LFP,

how have you made them work as a CC\CV?
I got mine some time ago and it shuts down after maybe 5 sec of charging (
maybe there is some special way to switch it on? :?:
 
liveforphysics said:
A battery needs to be tailored to the application. If I was making a golf cart, I would run Lead Acid bricks in massively oversized capacities, as weight and performance don't really matter, and it's dirt cheap and would last long enough being hugely oversized.
For a commuter bike for my Mother or someone with no technical skills, and not willing to do anything more than plug it in, I would do a Cell-man A123 pack. For a bike for myself, who doesn't care much about anything but raw performance, LiPo makes the most sense.

LFP, well stated - you and I are finally on the same size of this issue! Most of the discussions I see on "which is better" really come down to differences in design criteria - both sides are usually correct, that their choice is perfect for their own requirements. Same goes for hubbies and outrunners.

-JD
 
Essentially this bitch fest(mostly mine :oops:)comes down to "omg, you use your ebike differently, here's what I do and I think it's better!"

I guess I should of named this post, "a cost benefit comparison of lifepo4 and lipo for electric bicycles" because I'm trying to discuss the costs of building a low powered electric bicycle to people that otherwise are completely new to this(essentially me a year or two ago.)

Luke, you are a valuable member of the community. When you make a good post, its always enlightening. I wish you'd do that more often instead of being flippant, although perhaps I do deserve it sometimes.
 
auraslip said:
I guess I should of named this post, "a cost benefit comparison of lifepo4 and lipo for entry level electric bicycles"
There ya go. ;)

Since all of the talk has been about electric bicycles anyway, obviously that by itself isn't enough of a qualifier.
 
That we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours, and this we should do freely and generously.
--Benjamin Franklin

great quote
 
x88x said:
Thanks. :D It basically sums up my philosophy on intellectual property.


+1
 
sangesf said:
I tried to ask earlier about a (HK) LiPo setup that would give me the same results AND be able to be plugged in ANYWHERE there is a 120v outlet and walk away from it for as long as I want and have it FULLY charged when I get back to it. (I don't want to just plug a small charger in and have it "somewhat" full)
You didn't just try to ask, you did. And you got an answer that met all your criteria. If you want to charge to 100%, then all you have to do is set the charger to 100%. Or, if you use a PSU,set it to the 100% voltage of your pack and walk away. Personally, I set mine to 95%, but that's just me. So, for the 10s pack, set the PSU to 42V, plug it in and walk away. Perhaps you just missed my post, and the next one by LFP about how he charges his with a PSU on the road.
 
I resemble that comment from Sam Texas. The single best thing about ES is that when I post ignorant crap, I get slapped down immediately, and learn something. Sometimes I have to have it pounded into my head. I can be very stubborn. When I post stuff that's entirely wrong, I go edit immediately. But opinions are like, you know, everybody has one and often it stinks. I rarely edit opinion if somebody disagrees. My opinions do evolve though, over time and through my experience and reading of others experience. I rarely have graphs or anything more than vague data to back up opinions since they tend to be formed by what happens to me out on the road the most. I may fry a motor that works great for you. I ride in a different place than you.

Furthermore, I try to make all my comments very biased. Biased towards talking about what I have actually done, and how it went. I do often get asked for stuff I don't have experience with, but I will often try to answer the question anyway if I think I learned the info good enough to be correct. Solving this problem is one reason I created the lipo noobs thread links, where I could just tell folks, "read this one"

Re Sangef. What a great example he's set for what kind of bike is perfect for his needs, and what a less costly lifepo4 can do when asked to do that little. He definitley doesn't need anything more than a 1c discharge rate and his V power brand lifepo4 has gone an amazing distance for him.

Why on earth would he need lipo with 30c discharge? But on the flip side, if he was to build a 3000 watt bike for the death race, why on earth would he consider running it on anything less than 30 c lipo?

This thread has been great, and I thank Auraslip for starting it. Maybe he's right on some points and wrong on others. Maybe we just have different opinions because our own experience has been different, and it gives us a different bias on our interpretation of data.

One thing for sure, a discussion thread like this is very interesting, entertaining, and educational. It can't all be " this is how I did it perfect" threads here. The long discussions are how consensus is formed and less biased opinions evolve. Often nobody is all correct or all incorrect. One of the better things that happens in a thead like this is a guy like Sangef popping up. I have done this,,, and I have 20,000 miles on my Vpower HK battery. Man there you have a real world data point that is priceless! He's the first guy I can recall having actually reached 1000 cycles on one of the lifepo4 bike batteries. I recall a few that should be there by now. I would have been, but I started buying other batteries.
 
dogman said:
I resemble that comment from Sam Texas.

No from my perspective, dogman. I value your extensive hand-on experience and your straight-forward talk. I even admire you for openly admitting your mistake.
 
Yeah, I figured that comment was aimed mostly at some others. (not Auraslip btw) I've noticed it too. Usualy those guys fade out eventually. But parts of it do fit me to a T. Guys with an " I couldn't possibly be mistaken" attitude are not learning anything here. A very select few are never mistaken though! I'm confused half the time at least. :lol:

When the opinion is based on others opinions then the opinion is less valuable. When it's experience based it's more valuable. When it's based on extensive electronics knowledge AND experience like much of LFP's and other Gurus opinions, then it gets priceless. Ypedal or Dr Bass is another good example of that. Sorry about others I didn't name, there's a ton of you here, and we love it. To get this dumbshit to the point where I know some electronics is AMAZING. Couldn't have done it without ES.
 
Personally I think this whole thread is as absurd as a thread that might be titled: "a cost benefit analysis of owning a Honda Civic (LifePo4) Vs a Honda S2000 (Lipo)" or even: "a cost benefit analysis of having a good wife (LifePo4) Vs having no wife but a girlfriend who is a porn star (Lipo)"

There are so many variables of personal utility that render the analysis useless.

I started on LifePO4 and loved it, I now run nothing but Lipo and love it.

I'm building my wife a bike ATM, will put her on the LifePo4 pack, because she needs one button press "can't start a fire" simplicity for charging.

But would anyone suggest that if two men squared off in a Ebike drag race, one would choose LifePo4 as their chemistry of choice versus Lipo? If so, please put me into said scenario with them as my opponent.

I think it is great that Auraslip sought to point out some of the hidden costs of Lipo to Noobs (his points are vaild, and a hidden monster for many if dollars are scarce - I wasted money on a cheap Lipo charging setup that took hours to charge my first Lipo battery, before i realised the need to pump Peter North amps into my Lipo). But personally once I put aside the investment I made in a Hyperion 1420 Duo charger, I will never even consider LifePo4 again as a chemistry. But that is because I am willing to spend the time/concern re charging my battery, and the cost of chargers etc.. is of no real concern to me. I want maximum performance and minimum weight/space, so Lipo wins. That's just a fact.

Why is this forum so filled with people obsessed with simple dichotomies?

Good, loving, stable women (LifePO4) are awesome, and they bring richness to my life.

Pocket Rocket Hot Ladies with loose morals and an ability to get my Blood Pumping (Lipo) Rock.

Why can't I have both? Why does IT HAVE TO BE A DICHOTOMY????
 
Philistine-

Your whole post was excellent.
You were able to use woman metaphors to perfectly explain what I had failed to successfully express due to my pathetic no-using-woman-metaphor-speak (aka, speaking in "futile attempts").


Philistine said:
I started on LifePO4 and loved it, I now run nothing but Lipo and love it.


Many many folks have had this same experience. Start in LiFePO4, move into LiPo, never look back. Life becomes 95% smiles ear-to-ear, combined with occasional char from KFF events or heart-ache from puffed packs or charging errors etc.

For some, the smile factor doesn't balance the occasional heart-ache, and LiPo isn't right for them.

For others, (like myself), ebikes wouldn't even have any appeal if LiPo wasn't around.
 
liveforphysics said:
For others, (like myself), ebikes wouldn't even have any appeal if LiPo wasn't around.

DITTO!!
I had been turned off by large lifepo4/SLA packs forever and only got interested in eBikes again in 2010 when i saw people using A123 packs on bikes. The idea of running a bike off of two of those was really appealing. I asked about them on this forum and people pointed me to lipo, and answered my newbie questions about lipo and it has been a love affair ever since.

When i built my first bike, it had a 3lb battery pack and a 7lb motor. The bike itself was about 28lb, plus about 11lb of electric stuff. Even the local lycra shops were impressed by it's weight. The love affair with lipo has continued. I don't care if it is a little high maintenance, it makes my bike feel and ride like a bike. The extra weight and size really do matter. Many people like the idea of an eBike but are turned off by the weight and clunkyness of it all.
 
neptronix said:
I don't care if it is a little high maintenance, it makes my bike feel and ride like a bike. The extra weight and size really do matter. Many people like the idea of an eBike but are turned off by the weight and clunkyness of it all.


Yep.
In a world with only Ping packs (or similar batteries), I wouldn't have the least bit of interest in E-bikes.

I bought 40-50 headways cells a few years back (from the big Frodus group-buy). I thought I would make something from them (I had only used LiPo for ebikes before). They simply couldn't do what I wanted. I would have needed 3-4 of them in parallel to draw the power I needed, and then to get to ~90v, you end up needing a zillion cells, and your bike becomes a very heavy rolling battery to package it all.

I ended up using about 15 of the cells for experimental testing, then gave the rest away to folks who used them for car battery replacements in racecars.

If that had been my first EV experience, I don't think I would have caught the EV bug.
 
Why can't I have both? You can. I do. But one runs the wife bike, the other runs Charlie Sheens kinda girl. You should have as many types of battery as you need to match the kind of bikes you have.

I do agree with Auraslip, that lipo may not be the best idea for noobs. Look how many chargers I put plugs on backwards in my first summer. And that was with a voltmenter too! However, a smarter, more cautious and more careful guy than I should have no big problems rigging up and using a simple 12s 10 ah lipo pack. No matter if we recomend it or not, Noobs are going to go for lipo anyway after reading about our bikes. So we need to help em do it even if we think it's not the best thing for them.

I've read enough times about guys building some fantastic bikes on the first try. It can be done.

This thread may have gone off on a tangent, but it's been a fun ride.
 
"a cost benefit analysis of having a good wife (LifePo4) Vs having no wife but a girlfriend who is a porn star (Lipo)"

Why can't I have both? You can. I do.

Lucky man. :D

I bought 40-50 headways cells a few years back (from the big Frodus group-buy). I thought I would make something from them (I had only used LiPo for ebikes before). They simply couldn't do what I wanted. I would have needed 3-4 of them in parallel to draw the power I needed, and then to get to ~90v, you end up needing a zillion cells, and your bike becomes a very heavy rolling battery to package it all.

Like this?
RQcIF.jpg

60 psi cells? Heavy? Hell yeah. Fast and with lots of range? Yeah! A maintenance free car replacement? Definitely!
This is my ideal bike.... and I think it's the sort of bike that has the potential to reshape American transportation policy. I know it's basically a rolling battery, but life is full of trade offs... Spend $4000 for a bike that'll replace a car and lasts for years.... it doesn't bother me that it doesn't weigh anything near a bicycle. It's not a bicycle. It's not a toy for blasting around town or trails. It's basically a very light weight electric motorcycle. That's the beauty of building your own bike. You can have whatever you want!

Although I must admit, much of the hidden costs in lipo may soon be irrelevant as the new Zephyr BMS supports LIPO. Hopefully the price of the pre-built boards as well as a charger or power supply will be around the price point of a decent r/c charging rig.... Right now I'm debating whether my next build will be out of 8c headyways, 15c dlg/a123, or nanotech lipo. I could probably even get away with 20c lipo, since I'll be running large capacities...
 
Nice bike, but look at it. Looks as if it can't use all of the front suspension travel due to needing to mount the cells below the frame O_O

ammobox.jpg


ammobox2.jpg


This is the box i was talking about. Fits 20ah 10s lipo, with room left over for another 4ah if i were so inclined. Kind of on the edge of the motorcycle look that i don't like.

Making said headway boxes out of anything other than wood is also kinda difficult and requires a shop with some serious tools, for sure. Increased weight means it needs to be sturdy, yet you are working with limited space at the same time.
 
That bike frame is an XL, but it's a down hill frame with thick Aluminum tubes. It's actually kinda of small.... It'd be easy to get an old 90's xxl steel frame, the type with wide open triangles, and have disc tabs welded on so you can run 20" wheels with motorcycle tires. At that point, It might just be better to get one of HAL's frames, but they only fit 2KWh worth irrc. the bike above is also only 2KWh. Plenty of range, but not at 50 mph.
 
dogman said:
No matter if we recomend it or not, Noobs are going to go for lipo anyway after reading about our bikes.

Not this newbie. Thankfully because I have no need for high power. 18650s is more than adequate for me.
 
dogman said:
No matter if we recomend it or not, Noobs are going to go for lipo anyway after reading about our bikes.

Not this newbie. Thankfully because I have no need for high power. 18650s is more than adequate for me.
 
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