A new build, the same questions.

[bikerough]

What a great website. After reading through all the posts, I am also trying to invent a perfect ebike. I have a 19 miles commute, roundtrip, with at least 1 mile going up the hill (not steep, but nasty enough to kill the pleasure of riding a bike), and around $1000 to spend on it. All commute is paved paths. The idea is to build a bike that would not hate me (210 lb), and allow me to use the electric-powered mode for at least 9 miles of this commute. Sometimes it would be fun to get some assist while pulling a small trailer (60 pounds or so), but only up the hills. The maximum speed would be nice in the range of 30 mph. I don't feel like I need an overkill at this point, if I can get 9 miles in 35 minutes, it would be great. Should I go with 500W? 800W? More? Would something like this be an overkill?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/48V1000W-26-Rear-Wheel-Electric-Bicycle-Motor-Kit-E-Bike-Cycling-Hub-Conversion-/290770427141?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43b3449d05
I was also looking at the batteries, would this be optimal? Or can I go with less? I would like it to be as unobtrusive as it can be, yet, if possible, expendable, but with minimal "make your own and blow everything up" risks or charging nightmares.
http://www.pingbattery.com/servlet/the-12/48V-15AH-V2.5-LiFePO4/Detail

The big question is a frame. Would converting my old bike be a good idea? (something called Maserati from 70s. Was not able to find much info or pictures...)
http://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalogs/maserati/maserati3a.jpg
specs:
http://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalogs/maserati/maserati3.jpg

Or should I shop for something that has a front suspension? Also, I have no clue how 26 size wheels compare to 700c and if a track bicycle is good enough for such abuse.
all and any answers and advice are welcome! And thank you for having such a great forum.

 

[wesnewell]

All good til you get to the bike. Find a cheap steel framed 26" mountain bike to convert. You'll get just over 30mph with that kit and battery pack. That's the same kit I've been using for the last 18 months, but I've replaced the controller and use an 88.8V battery with it. Details in sigline.

 

[d8veh]

You can convert any bike, but each one has different problems to overcome. I agree with Wes: Your bike isn't ideal. Most kits come with throttles and brake levers with switches. It won't be easy fitting them on those handlebars. You could make a light-weight solution with a high-speed geared hub-motor, but then the help that you get from it would be a lot less. For a 500w motor capable of 30 mph, you'll be adding considerable weigh and speed, so disk brakes and wider tyres would be better.

For an electric bike of 500W, the requirements are a bit different to an unassisted bike depending on how you want to use it because bike efficiency is not so important when 80% of the power comes from the motor. Cheap MTBs can be good enough. Steel frames are less likely to break, but IMHO are not essential. Try and get one with 1 1/8" steerer tube, because you'll have more choice with quality suspension forks when you decide to upgrade them later - as many do. If you shop around for a used bike, you can often get a reasonable quality MTB that cost about $400 new for about $50 - especially if it's got a couple of flat tyres because the guy doesn't know how to fix punctures.

 

[dogman dan]

Another agree up to a point.

That bike would make a good electric bike, but for a use a bit different than you are talking about. Good bike for a lighter setup for somebody just wanting to use the motor on uphills only, to keep speed up to 15-20 mph on the uphills. The virtues of that bike will be smothered by a big powerfull motor and heavy battery to go the distance at speed.

But I don't quite recomend the cheapest bikes, such as under $150 new stuff. Look for a deal on a used bike that started out costing a bit more. Steel frame 26" mtb, trek, giant, specialized, etc. Or even a better alloy frame one if it pops up localy at a great price. Front suspension will help, but really cheap shocks don't do very much. Full suspension will really complicate carrying the battery.

Rear hubmotor, and 48v 15 ah lifepo4 battery that you mount in the front triangle of the frame. Depending on the motor, you'll have 25-30 mph, wich btw, is 10 mph too fast for the bike path unless you are completely alone on it. Moms and baby carriages and such, you can't tell which way they'll jump. Mostly they just hog the centerline and shout at you if you buzz them.

 

[superdave]

An e-roadbike is possible, but keep in mind that steel framed pre '90s road bikes are about as stiff as overcooked pasta. That flexibility is one of their charms (helps absorb a lot of road vibration), but it will be problematic when motorized. If you're a strong rider, you can probably already feel the frame flex and bounce on uphills and sprints. Now imagine quadrupling your power output! The frame may actually be able to take the abuse, but it's going to feel squirrely and unstable.

It's always cool to have a vintage road bike in your stable I'd keep the Maserati for a weekend workout bike and get something else for the e-bike build. The '90s steel-frame mountain bike suggestion is often a good way to go. I'm currently building up an '87 Mongoose mountain bike and it's working out pretty nicely. Lots of room in the triangle for batteries, and the ability to run big fat squishy tires to make up for no suspension Remember that 20 MPH on an e-bike is harder on the rider than 20 MPH pedaling because the bulk of your weight has shifted from your pedals to your seat. If you're really serious about sustaining 30 MPH, you should probably look at starting with a bike that has decent full suspension.

 

[arkmundi]

You may want to visit my saga thread and look at the manual I posted of my build. Simply nothing better or more cost effective than an A123 AMP20 pack you build yourself with Agniusm's kit. Can be sized as you want, to the specs of your chosen motor. Best.

 

[bikerough]

Thank you so much for your responses. Scratch the vintage, I guess, but it is a great bike, too bad the extra weight would make it awful to ride. I saw a couple of alloy KHSs around for cheap, but the frame size being only 13 inches, way too small. I think I need something around 18 or 20 inches. I also have another older KHS (from the 90s, I think, 17 inches frame, on the smallish size for me, the major reasons I did not look into converting it seriously were the lack of front suspension and small size). I also wonder how well a smaller frame size can accommodate the batteries. Also, anyone here makes custom battery covers/shells/containers?
I am not opposed to putting significant effort into making batteries (assembling, connecting, etc.), but would like it to be easy to charge/maintain, and somewhat low profile.

 

[bikerough]

You may want to visit my saga thread and look at the manual I posted of my build. Simply nothing better or more cost effective than an A123 AMP20 pack you build yourself with Agniusm's kit. Can be sized as you want, to the specs of your chosen motor. Best.

Sounds like a lot of fun. Will have to try this! Will get in touch with Agnius regarding this.

 

[Out-Spokin']

I did not fare to well with an ebay rear wheel setup. When I installed it and took it for a test, I noticed that the freewheel hung up upon every rotation when coasting. The seller offered some money but would not take the kit back for a refund. In order for me to replace the freewheel, I had to cut off a wire connector and drill out a freewheel removal tool to get it over the axle. I put a freewheel on from another bike I had but the threads on the motor were a bit tight for an easy install. Also the motor ran backwards sometimes. I need to replace the controller because it didn't work right out of the box. Get a quality kit so you don't get aggravated.

 

[bikerough]

I did not fare to well with an ebay rear wheel setup. When I installed it and took it for a test, I noticed that the freewheel hung up upon every rotation when coasting. The seller offered some money but would not take the kit back for a refund. In order for me to replace the freewheel, I had to cut off a wire connector and drill out a freewheel removal tool to get it over the axle. I put a freewheel on from another bike I had but the threads on the motor were a bit tight for an easy install. Also the motor ran backwards sometimes. I need to replace the controller because it didn't work right out of the box. Get a quality kit so you don't get aggravated.

Any suggestions? Is there any seller that sells it all - a good quality kit and a matching battery? Preferably, ships from the USA?

 

[cal3thousand]

I did not fare to well with an ebay rear wheel setup. When I installed it and took it for a test, I noticed that the freewheel hung up upon every rotation when coasting. The seller offered some money but would not take the kit back for a refund. In order for me to replace the freewheel, I had to cut off a wire connector and drill out a freewheel removal tool to get it over the axle. I put a freewheel on from another bike I had but the threads on the motor were a bit tight for an easy install. Also the motor ran backwards sometimes. I need to replace the controller because it didn't work right out of the box. Get a quality kit so you don't get aggravated.

Any suggestions? Is there any seller that sells it all - a good quality kit and a matching battery? Preferably, ships from the USA?

-If you can get your battery elsewhere, I would go to http://www.Methtek.com or PM 'methods'. I just bought some motors from him recently and will always go to him first now. He's the man! Service is stupendous!

-http://www.GoldenMotor.ca is in Canada and they have everything one would need including batteries. Pretty good reputation here on ES. Gary is a good guy as well. They sell Magic Pies, which have a good following here as torquey power plants with room for modding. Bought my LiFePO4 there. It recently had the keyswitch die out and Gary sent me a new one fairly quickly. I'm happy.

I just bought a controller from Edward Lyen as well (best controllers for high power) and he has some motors too. his site is uber plain, but straightforward: http://www.lyen.com/ . He's a quick shipper and located in California. He'll answer your silly questions as needed too.

e-bikekit.com is in the US (east coast), but they only have SLA batts last I checked and my experience with them was less than hassle-free. Maybe I got unlucky with them, because most their customers seem satisfied. But nobody here is raving over them.

 

[wesnewell]

I did not fare to well with an ebay rear wheel setup. When I installed it and took it for a test, I noticed that the freewheel hung up upon every rotation when coasting. The seller offered some money but would not take the kit back for a refund. In order for me to replace the freewheel, I had to cut off a wire connector and drill out a freewheel removal tool to get it over the axle. I put a freewheel on from another bike I had but the threads on the motor were a bit tight for an easy install. Also the motor ran backwards sometimes. I need to replace the controller because it didn't work right out of the box. Get a quality kit so you don't get aggravated.

What kit did you buy that you had to cut the motor wires to replace a freewheel? I know it wasn't a kit from yescomusa, as you don't have to cut anything to replace the freewheel. You need a freewheel removal tool with a larger hole for all hub motor axles.

 

[agniusm]

As i mentioned before in PM, you can get all from cellman, motor, controller, battery with BMS, charger, switches and throttle. Hes reputable person and does quality stuff. Delivery times are also good. Don't go cheap, you cant make quality product cheap!!!

 

[wesnewell]

I have nothing against cellman, but the fact is he sells the same stuff as other vendors. He may provide better support, but the quality of the product will be the same. And he's in China, so there's a hefty shipping charge to other countries. You just can;t beat the value of the yescomusa kits if you live in the US.

 

[bikerough]

I have nothing against cellman, but the fact is he sells the same stuff as other vendors. He may provide better support, but the quality of the product will be the same. And he's in China, so there's a hefty shipping charge to other countries. You just can;t beat the value of the yescomusa kits if you live in the US.

Yeah, price, shipping time and no availability of certain products make it hard to go with cellman here in the USA. However, I am still confused about the best battery for yescomusa 48/1000 kit. Ping has it in 48v/10, 15, 20, 30 ah. Since I want it small and last only some 17 miles, would 10 AH work? The question is not as much about price, as it is about the size/power of the thing - I want it light enough, but with enough power to do the job. I can make it myself, too, as I saw many people excited about A123s. Sorry for being a newb - I hope to start putting everything together next week, with the battery coming in last. And thank you for all your answers so far - very helpful.

 

[arkmundi]

However, I am still confused about the best battery for yescomusa 48/1000 kit. Ping has it in 48v/10, 15, 20, 30 ah....

Ping is LiFePO4, but NOT nanophosphate as with A123. Let me repeat this loud and clear: THE ONLY BATTERY YOU SHOULD "BUY" RIGHT NOW IS WITH THE A123 AMP20. That will mean from Cellman (he's building these now) or buy the cells and build the pack yourself. I recommend that you build your own because you can then chose balance of parts, like BMS or not, digital meters, cell balancing strategy, etc. See my saga thread for full details on what I did. Regards.

 

[Out-Spokin']

What kit did you buy that you had to cut the motor wires to replace a freewheel? I know it wasn't a kit from yescomusa, as you don't have to cut anything to replace the freewheel. You need a freewheel removal tool with a larger hole for all hub motor axles.
Wes, the eBay name was yescomusa. 36volt 26" wheel. I never saw a brand new freewheel hang up like that. Anyway, I had to open the hole on my freewheel removal tool to clear the axle. Even still, the hall sensor connector wouldn't fit through tool. There are other problems with it too. I am sorry I bought it.

 

[wesnewell]

No, you didn't have to cut the hall wire connector off. You just did it. You could have removed the pins from the connector and pulled the connector off in about a minute or two. Then the wires would have fit through the freewheel fine. If you don't know wtf you're doing you should ask for help before screwing something up and then blaming the seller. So what were the other problems? I would say get a refund, but since you've cut the wires, I doubt they would take it back now. FWIW, you need to enlarge the hole to remove any freewheel from all hub motor axles I know of. Or you can buy freewheel removal tool with a 14mm hole for $12 iirc. I bought one when I replaced mine, but didn't want to wait so used a step drill to enlarge the hole in a Park removal tool. Took about 5 minutes. So now I have 2 that will work.

 

[e-beach]

What a great website.

Thank you for that. The e-bike community here is definitely passionate about their e-bikes. Putting all the thunder of this thread aside, I am just going to tell you what I have and what it can do. Maybe it will help you decide what you want.

At the moment I am running on a 36v 800w yescomusa front hub motor and kit. My aluminum framed bike, cheap front suspension, steel rack and two bike locks weigh in, all together at about 80 pounds. I weigh (at the moment) 203 pounds. When I put on a back-pack with things in it, like my charger I roll at at least 300 lbs. My battery charger is 12 ah so I can charge my fully drained pack in 90 minutes. Who wants to wait around at a charging point?

I am running on a 15ah Headway battery pack that will get me about 22-25 miles, riding faster then the city buses. Longer if I slow down. When I go on my 15 mile each way "Redondo Beach" run, I can go the 30 miles, pretty much WOT, with 12 miles of flats and 3 miles of up and down hills each way, for an eventual 100 foot elevation rise, if I stop and charge for 20 minutes along the way. A 30 minutes is better.

If I had to do it all over again I would go with a 48v 1000w rear hub motor. It is safer in the rear and more powerful, but the battery pack for my needs would cost a bit more.

I would highly recommend a mountain bike with a 1 1/8 inch steerer tube, front suspension and a large triangle where you can mount you batteries. (at least most of them) for optimum weight distribution and handling.

I have had two injury crashes with my yescomusa kit. One of them was with my Headway batteries (flipped my bike with my back tire flying over my head.) My bike, yescomusa kit and headway batteries still run fine. My body, on the other hand, is a bit worse-for-ware.

Hope this helps!

 

[Out-Spokin']

No, you didn't have to cut the hall wire connector off. You just did it.

To Wesnewell

BEFORE I did work on the freewheel, I SENT Yescomusa many email messages. They were kind enough to pick up the phone and call me. I sent them VIDEO showing the Freewheel sticking. They said they could refund $60 but that was the extent of it. I accepted their offer. I regret that I didn't know about endless-spheres prior to effecting repair, but your method of using a Step Drill (Harbor Freight had one on sale) on a Freewheel Tool is EXACTLY what I did instinctively.

Actually, I did try to remove the pins but the molex connector was cracked when I got it. I didn't notice it until I started to remove the pins.

I replaced the connector with better individual connectors (30 gauge I think) with the advice of an electrical engineer. You are hung up on cutting the wires which is no problem for me.

There were other problems with this kit but I got the freewheel replaced and got the motor running as well as it did out of the box.

The kit was purchased in December 2011. Maybe Yescomusa changed factories or something. I haven't found any of their kits listed on ebay any more. I don't know what that means though.

Its a kit, so it takes work to get it to run. We know that. I wanted to relay this information to someone who plans on using this product. I even plan on using it on another bike.

Somehow I offended you but there was never any personal attack. That was not my intent. I appreciate your sharing your well documented experience with the forum as I read many of your articles.

 

[wesnewell]

They gave you $60 back for a defective freewheel. Sounds like a heck of a deal to me when you can buy one for about $10. I was just pointing out the fact that you can remove the pins from the hall wire connector and you don't have to cut it off to remove the freewheel. Stuff happens. I didn't like a lot about the design of the wiring and connectors either, but for the price, you can't beat it with any kit I've seen.

 

[bikerough]

Thank you for such a great writeup, looks like you are in a similar situation to mine. I just got rid of the Schwinn Tailwind Electric (some store is clearing out the inventory here in the US), which was way underpowered for my needs (cannot even pedal above 15 mph!). So, back to the drawing board - looking for a good donor frame. Ordered the 48v 1000w yescomusa kit, and still on a lookout for an optimal battery.
Meanwhile I made a maiden voyage to work, measuring distance and speeds, and reassessed my needs. The roundtrip is 16 miles. It looks like I need battery for 8-9 miles (roundtrip, mostly on hills), assuming that the battery is not being drained when I do my own pedaling. If google tracks is correct, on my road bike, I can still maintain 20 mph speed on the flats for around 20 minutes, unassisted, but hills kill me (16 years ago I used to do track cycling, before hurting my knees). So I assume that I could pedal 15 mph with a heavier mtn bike as well. Would do much worse in the summer heat. If I can go nearly full speed up the hill with the motor, the commute would be around 40-45 minutes one way, and give me great exercise.
The only question (besides getting a good beaten up bike) is a sufficient (prefer it to be as light as possible) and hopefully frame-mounted battery. I am most likely looking at 48v 15ah or 48v 20ah batteries ($800-900 shipped?), but all I can currently find is mountable above the rear wheel, and at around 20 pounds would reduce safe speed on turns, etc.

If I had to do it all over again I would go with a 48v 1000w rear hub motor. It is safer in the rear and more powerful, but the battery pack for my needs would cost a bit more.

I would highly recommend a mountain bike with a 1 1/8 inch steerer tube, front suspension and a large triangle where you can mount you batteries. (at least most of them) for optimum weight distribution and handling.

I have had two injury crashes with my yescomusa kit. One of them was with my Headway batteries (flipped my bike with my back tire flying over my head.) My bike, yescomusa kit and headway batteries still run fine. My body, on the other hand, is a bit worse-for-ware.

Hope this helps!

 

[wesnewell]

The only question (besides getting a good beaten up bike) is a sufficient (prefer it to be as light as possible) and hopefully frame-mounted battery. I am most likely looking at 48v 15ah or 48v 20ah batteries ($800-900 shipped?), but all I can currently find is mountable above the rear wheel, and at around 20 pounds would reduce safe speed on turns, etc.

You can get 20ah of 12s rc lipo (888wh) easily into the triangle and it will only weigh 14 lbs. And the cost is ~$350 including shipping. That'll get you about 45 miles @20mph or 30miles @26mph.
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=16207

 

[e-beach]

Thank you for such a great writeup,...

You are very welcome!

looks like you are in a similar situation to mine........still on a lookout for an optimal battery.

Be sure to get a bike before you order your batteries. You want to build your conversion around something you can measure.

RC lipo will defiantly give you the most bang for your buck, but there is still the off chance that they will catch on fire. The chance is small, but it was enough for me to go with LiFePO4 because I like to charge at work when I work. The last thing I need is my bike to catch on fire when I am at work...and with my luck it would. :lol:

The down side of my Headways is that they only really deliver about 2c so they don't push me up the hills like my 5c SLA's used to. The link that Wes gave you is for 20c rc lipo's and at that current discharge rating they would easily exceed the controller rating coming with your kit.

A123 LiFePO4 battery packs have a higher c rating then my Headways, but they are more expensive and I couldn't find anyone that made a pack that would fit in my triangle, and was narrower then 4 inches. Dogman has pointed out that Ping battery has a 36v 20ah pack that is very close to 4 inches. Anything thicker then 4 inches rubs my lets when I ride.

Meanwhile I made a maiden voyage to work, measuring distance and speeds, and reassessed my needs. The roundtrip is 16 miles. It looks like I need battery for 8-9 miles (roundtrip, mostly on hills), assuming that the battery is not being drained when I do my own pedaling.

My 15ah will take me 22 miles with 200 feet of elevation.

I could pedal 15 mph with a heavier mtn bike as well.

If you do 15ah or more you may not need to peddle at all.

all I can currently find is mountable above the rear wheel, and at around 20 pounds would reduce safe speed on turns, etc.

Yes It Would!!! I fractured a rib in January do to a crash in witch my rear rack mounted batteries contributed. I highly recommend that you be patient and get a bike that has a big enough triangle to put your batteries into!!!

 

[bikerough]

Thank you very much for your replies and suggestions - I just finished my conversion, using yescomusa kit, cellman's battery and a vintage giant steel mountain bike (have never seen rims so true on a vintage bike!). I have to say, it is a lot of fun.
As far as quality is concerned - yescomusa kit came defective, and they dragged their feet without resolving anything as of now. So I gave up and opened the controller. The soldering job inside was terrible. Spend 20 minutes trying to fix it up, and got it to the point where it works (although some sounds inside the controller suggest that it is far away from perfect. If anyone has a suggestion for an alternative (smaller and cool) controller, and best way to mount it to the frame, let me know.
Also, the spacers do not allow enough space between freeweel and frame, had to add two more spacers to resolve it.

The last problem is that the freewheel does not spin freely - which most likely is indicative of over tightening, or some other bearing issues. If I could just replace it with the freewheel from my donor bike, it would be great - however, I don't have the tools needed for the surgery at the moment, so if anyone has attempted it, it would be good to know what works, and what does not.

That said, electric bike is a lot of fun, and I am very thankful for all your advice! You guys rock!