A Strategic Proposal

R

RevDon

100 W
Joined
Nov 13, 2007
Messages
140
Location
New Olreans
After reading through all the posts about the difficulties everyone's having, an idea struck me :idea: uh, yeah, something like that, anyway I'd like to propose:
the North American Electric Bicycle Dealers Association :!: :shock:
It's been proven that organization is the best way to deal with mutual difficulties faced by a group. As an association, we would have more clout with everyone from suppliers to government agencies. I realize that at first this may like herding cats, but I urge you all to think it over. Imagine being able to approach the import obstacles with the combined might of all of our businesses. I know that I'm the noob here, so I could be the Secretary of Enthusiasm and Optimism or something, but the fact is: there's strength in numbers. So, let's take a roll call - how many of us are there
Don
 
Create new products. Current ones suck.

Relatively simple modifications to existing products could yeild some decent stuff. They can build stuff to your specs.
 
3 RESPONSES, AND ALL OF THEM POSITIVE :D That's quite an indication of what sort of people make up this group. OK, starting with Ypedals suggestion of defining goals, let's start with defining the market and providing it with suitable products. As per Fechter's reply, there's a lot of room for improvement there, and as to Lenk42602, we should play to people's strenghths when it comes to assigning tasks.

The Market: Three different levels?
#1 Entry level. Want's just a basic bike/kit that's not too expensive.

#2 Intermediate level. Looking for more power and range, starting to get into some DIY stuff like building components. Willing to pay more for performance.

#3 Advanced level. Not satisfied with what's currently available, always looking for something better. These people are pushing the envelope, experimenting with new technology and not concerned with cost so much as performance. In other words: You.

To be successful as an industry, we should strive to offer only the best products at every level. The one's that are building their own components, or know what improvements they want to existing products, are going to be propelling the market, and may invent something patent-worthy, if not copyrightable.

Motors and batteries are existing tech that could be modified to suit our demands. Where we might want to look into developing products of our own would be in the bicycle itself. Obviously once you pass a certain power level, pedal bike frames just aren't suitable. So let's design our own :twisted: Incorporate decent suspension components borowing from lightweght motorcycles. Built in mounts for disc brakes and torque arms, etc. This could be a whole new market niche.

Another possible way of approaching this would be as a co-op, using maybe REI as a model. They started small, catering to a highly specialized market who joined together as members to get better deals on the products they needed.

So, I opened Pandora's Box, let's grab those scissors and run with them!

I look forward to hearing from you all,
Don
 
I didn't mean to leave you out, we were posting at the same time. So taking your suggestion, this organization should set the standards as to what's acceptable as a product. I also realize that I was being parochial when I suggested the name. :oops: I know we have some "Test Pilot's" over on the "other side of the Pond" and I don't want to exclude them, so how about calling us "The International Electric Bike Co-operative"?

Don
 
We all understand that the law is rarely on the little guy's side despite the "little guy" constituting the majority of "guys". Hence, one arm of this organization should be a political action committee so we can bribe lawmakers with campaign contributions like the automobile, oil, and every other industry does. Sorry, don't ask me to contribute any money though -- I spent it all on my ebike. :D
 
xyster said:
We all understand that the law is rarely on the little guy's side despite the "little guy" constituting the majority of "guys". Hence, one arm of this organization should be a political action committee so we can bribe lawmakers with campaign contributions like the automobile, oil, and every other industry does. Sorry, don't ask me to contribute any money though -- I spent it all on my ebike. :D
Click to expand...

Granted, we may face some legal opposition. The best way to go about things is to approach it from a pro-active, environmental angle. It's becoming increasingly difficult for politicians to vote against 'Green" issues and stay in office. The ones who are genuinely pro-environment don't need to be bribed, and will usually be glad to champion any green legislation.
 
I second the motion for an ebike specific frame design. I'm right in the middle of trying to decide how to do a dual-motor, higher performance bike/motorcycle. Two C=lyte X5 hubmotors can easily supply 5kW each of raw power, for short periods, which is some "real" horsepower :) It is probably too much for a MTB frame, but probably not enough for a full-on motorcycle frame Something purpose-built, in between the two would be perfect.

-- Gary
 
Keeping on the frame idea, my recumbent frame has blue prints on the web already and can be welded by any skilled brazer/welder.
LWB recumbents have the benefit of not needing suspention because the frame is already 7 feet long and it flexes like a leaf spring, plus the seats are super comfy already. Just an idea to start with.
Will post imag when my friend is over to show me how. :?
 
rev,

don't want to de-rail the train, but shouldn't we establish an e-bike classification system based on gvw/power output? I think pursuing the development of an architecture like this would allow the industry to crystallize different market segments for various needs. This would be more to create an internal industry language than to invite external legislation of any kind.



len
 
Lenk42602 said:
rev,

don't want to de-rail the train, but shouldn't we establish an e-bike classification system based on gvw/power output? I think pursuing the development of an architecture like this would allow the industry to crystallize different market segments for various needs. This would be more to create an internal industry language than to invite external legislation of any kind.



len
Click to expand...

Hey Len, Looks like i done stirred up a hornets nest :twisted: Please see my "Back at the Ranch" thread on the E-Vehicles General Discussion page.
Hey Mods! think we need to start an "Organization" page :?:

Don
 
OK. Here's a suggestion:

Start off small, with a simple target we know can be achieved – design an ebike controller that works and get a manufacturer to start making it. The controller seems to be the biggest single obstacle at the moment. It's the one thing that really pisses people off, and as Fechter's pointed out many times, building one that works shouldn't be rocket science (at least not to him...).

I'm not sure of the best way to do this, but a series of polls might be a good start. Agree on basic specifications and feature set. Find out how many people would be interested in buying a wide range controller that has all the features we want built in. Find out how much we'd be willing to pay if this was the only controller we ever needed to buy.

From what I understand, the design work is the most expensive part (for a manufacturer) and the part where we want the most input ourselves. Would it be possible to set up an open source controller design project?
 
Lessss said:
Recumbent, you should add that weblink to your profile
Click to expand...

The web link is an add for selling the blueprint for 20-50 dollars on someones blog site unfortunately. The style frame is well known and is made in Scandinavia, Germany, America, and Canada from just what I've seen. Even these are devided into different classes, or series. A great design for many decades.
 
Malcolm said:
From what I understand, the design work is the most expensive part (for a manufacturer) and the part where we want the most input ourselves. Would it be possible to set up an open source controller design project?
Click to expand...

I think there are some out there already, but not for the right application.

I'm not sure how to organize such a thing, but ES members seem to be quite far along the path of an open source Battery Management System for lithium batteries without any organization at all.

I wonder if the DeWalt guys are paying attention, since their BMS sucks?

Anyway, I think it could be done, but it would be difficult to get a consensus on what features to include. More features = more money, and we need the end product to be as inexpensive as possible and still do the required job. Some kind of modular approach would be nice.

Once you get the design down, then the real challenge is getting enough money up front to get a bunch built and figuring out a way to sell them. The larger the batch, the lower the price.

It might work to team up with one of the Chinese manufacturers that currently produces crap and give them the design so they can make millions of them for the Chinese market. With volume in the millions, we could get good, cheap controllers (assuming they can manage their quality control problems). Lots of US companies have stuff made in China that is well made. Its all a matter of quality control and good design.

I'd rather make them here, but the cost would be higher.
 
Ypedal said:
I like the modular idea

Have a controller board made with expansion slots to add

-ebrakes
-CycleAnalyst
-Cruise Control
-USB ( data logging ? programable?)
-etc...

If a customer wants cheap and no frills... it's a quick snap-on-snap-off
Click to expand...

Thats partialy already done, and Justin at Ebikes.ca has done it, getting Crystalyte to produce controllers to his specs with 4110 fets and such. you would probably need his permission to get a controller produced with a connection for the CA, but I can only imagine he would want more bikes out there using his Cycle analyst as Standard.



Getting a controller produced would be neat, but I don't see this kind of organazation going into the manufacturing side of things, unless we want to become a buisness our selves.

Instead, I see us as a group who comes forward to various vendors and manufacturers and tells them exactly what we want, and are willing to buy.

I see us starting off small, with group buys, going to the manufacturer and giving them the specs we want, in numbers large enough for it to be worth there effort. Imagine us going to A123 with a request for 36V 10A packs at $500 each, but represenitive of 500 potential customers.

They might just take notice. They might just decide there is a market they hadn't realy considered before.

I also see us working with other bicycle associations and with citys and towns to raise awareness of bikes inthe comunity. promoting bikes as an alternitive to cars, and lobbying for improved bike lanes, along with indirectly promoting electric bikes as just another bike alternitive.

I see us working with retailers and department stores to get the junk pulled off their shelves, and replaced with better quality bikes and equipment.
 
I believe the testing and modification members have done here has trickled back to some manufacturers.
We do see the newer controllers made with better FETs in some cases.
It would be good if there was a better feedback mechanism to the manufacturers to speed up the refinement process.
 
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