Bakfiet 'bakers bike' Holland

nonstop_paul

nonstop_paul

100 µW
Joined
Jul 16, 2016
Messages
9
Location
Helsinki, Finland
I just purchased a Workcycle Bakfiet from Holland. The bike has a fixed, single gear hub brake and huge 26"x2.5" wheels.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/henryinamsterdam/sets/72157622897015546/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/henryinamsterdam/sets/72157632289987603/
I've been searching for a week since I got the bike and assembled it. It's 165kg and simply impossible to cycle else where than on the flat.
I was looking into mid drive 8FUN motors but the hub on this bike is 48mm dam. and 112 mm wide so normal BSA standard bike and fat bike hubs will not accommodate the size used on this bike.
I was amazed to run into MXUS 3K V2 motor and it would seem it would do the job.
I'm hoping I could get some advice for this build. So far the only place I can find it is from KINAYE MOTORS
http://kinaye-motorsports.myshopify.com/products/mxus-3000w-performance-kit

The youtube clips I've seen on this motor the mountain bikes were doing in excess of 80km/h...way too high for this trike. Still the torque is essential as the bike will end up weighing in at 300kg
So I really need some amps for assistance.

There doesn't seem to be any where in Europe that sells these type of eBike hubs with wheels. If anyone would like to share their ideas and I'll share any information I can find.

Paul

Bakfiets1.png

[moderator edit to format pic]
 
These bikes are really beautiful (works of art), with so many different applications, business, family outings, shopping, moving, etc.....

I got caught up in the beauty of these bikes, I forgot to mention, try and find a mid-drive that will fit. You can always change the rear gearing to accommodate the torque you need, I assume you are not after speed?!
 
Hi Mundo, yes they are beautiful. I spent a long long time searching for these bikes. Yes you can find originals from the 1930's that have lasted well despite their age. The only problem is they still want 30-40% of the cost of a new bike and then you have the problem of finding spare parts. This was the reason I went for a new bike.

OK enough said, back to the mid drive problem 8FUN etc have two sizes which if I remember are BSA (British Standard) 34mm diameter and 70mm in length -or- the fat bike version with is 100mm long.

Again this bike (as best as I could measure) pedal arms in the way and front sprocket/guard hindering me slightly was 48mm diameter and 112mm long.
Nothing on this bike is (standard) so where on earth do you find a mid drive kit to accommodate these weird dimensions?
If I was a machinist I guess I could lathe shims for the diameter BUT I'd still come up short in the length.

As for speed, this bikes with it's long box on the front makes the steering very sensitive and speed is the last thing I'm looking for, not to speak about laws and restrictions in Europe on the subject and is the reason I'm a little sceptic about the MXUS and the YouTube clips of wicked speeds. Still I need some version... there was a recent post on a similar thing but I'm still not sure of the controller and throttle (see link)
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=303618696367239&set=g.5519804147&type=1&theater

The search goes on.

Paul
 
Paul,

I don't know enough about these bikes to be helpful, related to the correct mid-drive. Does the manufacture have recommendation for electric power? It seems you done your homework as far as measurements. Perhaps Paul (cellman) or Eric (Luna) can offer some help on what might fit. Even Justin (ebike. ca) he has the Stoke Monkey mid-drive, but I don't think that would fit..... What is the rear drop-out measurement? I have a single speed hub motor on a narrow drop-out bike (light duty), it works good, but not at the weight your using!

http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=50_45

http://lunacycle.com/bafang-mid-drive-and-parts/

One More...
http://www.nutzrad.de/?seite=kat
 

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nonstop_paul said:
I've been searching for a week since I got the bike and assembled it. It's 165kg and simply impossible to cycle else where than on the flat.
Click to expand...
165kg? that's over 320lbs, right? (math is not my strong suit ;))

If so, I think that's more than my heavy-duty SB Cruiser trike *and* it's trailer *plus* the first St Bernards it was built to move around. ;)

And you mention a final weight over 600lbs (300kg), which is even more than me plus the agbove, possibly about what me and both SB's plus the trike and trailer would be?A

That said, I use two DD hubmotors ini 20" wheels with Shinko moped tires on them for acceleration from 0-20MPH in avbout 6seconds or so (with a moderate load). I'm only usint 12fet controllesr that do around 30-40A peak depending on how they feel that day, with a 14s EIG NMC pack that now sags a bit under that 60-80A load.

But if I had my druthers I'd buildl a middrive for it to do teh hard work instead, running thru an IGH as a jackshaft (so if it breaks I don't have to rebuild a wheel) and then use heavy-duty 26" "normal" wheels instead of DD hubmotors, for a better ride. (see my Raine Trike thread for the frame layout I'd likely end up using).


Probably one of the BBSXX type middrives, or Stokemonkey or similar, would do what you want to do, especially if you gear the output of the drive down so it is putting out a lot of torque rather than speed inot your drive chain. If that drive chain is heavy duty like kart or motorcycle chain it will have little problem with thatkind of thing. If it's reagulare bike chain it may not hold up to it as long if you really hammer it. You could add a cush-drive to buffer the input, either at the motor or input to the drive chain, to lighten the load on initail startup, or a ramping-up throttle, so it doesn't hammer things so ard.

you could also add an IGHas jackshaft so that you have gears to change to for torque vs speed, if you end up needing them.


Whatever you do I think you're going to have to do some mechanicla modification of the trike.
 
The BBSHD motor is also available with axle lengths of more that 100mm. Some suppliers stock a 120mn version, some even stock a 110mm version.
if the bb tube diameter is more than 34mm, you'll need some sort of adaptor. There is a good thread in the mid drive section of this forum on BB standards. You also need to consider that the space between the motor and bb section of the BBS motors is quite tight. There is some info on the BBS kits on the EM3ev site that mentions this. I suspect you may have to modify the frame ro get a BBS motor to fit.
 
With the weight involved and the reliability you are after, I would be going large direct drive hub rather than BBS series of mid drive. Torque is typically what breaks drive train parts (like the internals of a mid drive, chains so on...) and you are going to need plenty with that weight. Direct drive is harder to set up but less maintenance in the long run. The disadvantage of this is losing the same gearing offered by a mid drive.

Im not totally across how your front axle is designed, but looks solid across? I don't think you could pull off dual front motors without axle modification/ supporting both sides of the motor axle (your axle is only supported from one side rather than the usual both sides supported).

On that basis, a beefy rear dd hub motor, moped rim and tyre is what I would go for with oodles of current ideally. 8)
 
Some interesting replies and I'll try and answer as best I can. YES the bike is 165kg. It's massively heavy and nothing on it is standard (bike terms).

I found the extra fat Bafang BBSH kit interesting as it's 120 mm wide (up to) so I popped them an email.

My question (as they offer firmware modifications) is can this pedal assist eBike kit be down powered to the legal limit of 250w?
eBikes in Europe HAVE to be pedal assisted (no throttle, button or wind) can be used, you have to pedal. Also the legal limit is 250w max.
Other wise the bike will have to be registered as a electric moped; I'd have to get road insurance, where a crash helmet and get number plates and have it legally certified (don't you just love it).

I'll be looking to the other links. Keeping this in mind.
 
With only 250w to work with, a hubmotor is not very useful for something that heavy, especially if it's not flat terrain. While it would be better than nothing, it would take quite a while to get started up from a stop to even a few MPH.

A middrive that goes thru a set of at least two selectable gears for startup torque and then travel speed would really help you with that.


If it is a single-speed now, adding an IGH for both pedals and motor would help both of them. (even if ti's a separate IGH for each one).
 
There is a 250w BBS01 unit available, which I have. It's too much of a toy compared to what you are trying to use it for.

If you used PAS with the BBSHD unit, you could definitely limit it in the programming. I haven't disassembled one of these, but I definitely doubt it is strong enough construction compared to what you actually need.
 
Aren't there alot of 'bikes' like this in the east? Rickshaws and the like?

That was my impression when buying my BHT motor, for mid direct drive. (parallel to the bike chain.) It has a very low kV (30) so reduction is easy for MAJOR torque at low speeds. Imo if you want to stay at the ridiculously low 250w (think 2 people pedalling nonchalantly) you will also stay with speed limit. A mid motor like this will definitely get it done better imo than any hub or serial middrive I'm aware of, because of the weight you are carting combined with low power and top speed.

I think the real heavy and slow vehicles use something more like this?
http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/e-rickshaw-motor-differential-rear-differential_60291471508.html?spm=a2700.7724838.0.0.vKKEmx
 
Well I must say the returning emails from different vendors are saying the 1000w rear wheel kit isn't powerful enough.
Also the Bafang people are telling me the bottom bracket and the huge horizontal bike tube means mid engine kits won't fit.
Now in Finland the legal limit is 1000w max.

I was offered this kit:
Battery Pack 72V,20Ah, 200A max current output: 2099USD
Controller 4Kw + Battery Pack management system: 575USD
Controller 8Kw + Battery Pack management system: 710 USD
Controller 14Kw + Battery Pack management system: 867 USD
MXUS V3 Turbo : 299CAD
Moped rim mounted on the hub motor : 199CAD

But then the bike would end up costing me nearly 10.000USD with is ridiculous.
All I want to do is get some assistance going up inclines. I don't want to a hill climbing bike.
A UK eBay shop said the 1000w is too weak. To go for a trike rear axle kit BUT this has two wheels at the front and NO axle.
Each wheel has a tapered 3 inch bolt and they are separate.

Seems this has literally come to a grinding halt.
 
You could use a middrive, but you will probably have to either build it yourself, for instance by mounting a hubmotor in the frame and using it to drive your chain, or by modifying either a middrive kit to work with your frame/etc., or modifying your frame to work with one of the middrive kits, or both.

There are a lot of options but they will probably all require a fair bit of DIY.
 
I sort of agree with the vendors saying 1000w kits wouldn't work, mostly because they are wound for too high of speed. If one human power is enough, then a 1000w motor geared properly will be way more than enough.

you might contact Justin at Grin Cyclery. His version of the Stoke monkey kit would be about perfect for something like this. http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/conversion-kits/all-stoked.html
 
If you could remove the crank-arms and also the bottom bracket crankset, that would be very helpful. That way you can provide exact dimensions, and perhaps post a picture. Since you will be going slow, I don't think you will need lots of gears, but I also think you would do well to use a large mid drive.

This is one of the few times when I would recommend the Cyclone 3000W, but run it at a much lower voltage. The stock mounting brackets are known to be flexy, but several builders have posted pictures of how to brace them to improve the design. Luna does not ship outside the US, so you might order it direct from Paco at Cyclone.

You might consider a 36V or 48V battery, but specify high-amp cells. That model of Cyclone can easily take 50A peaks. The voltage will be set, but the max amps can be adjusted up or down at any time, depending on what turns out to work for you. You can find a very large sprocket to mount on the rear wheel to bring the top speed way down (the EU legal 16-MPH/25-km/h?). If your top speed is 16-MPH maximum, I think you will only need one speed of sprockets.
 
I agree, 250 watts is not enough power. 1000 watts would most likely work, especially in a mid-drive system.

I have a 48volt mid-drive Yuba Mundo (about 100 lbs+), it delivers 1400/1500 watts while going uphill, carrying my Son and I (another 330/340 lbs) fully loaded with stuff, Also, sometimes we pull a 100 lbs trailer with no issues.

You might consider CA-V3, it can be set-up to have 3 power settings and if you power it down, you can set it to resort to the lowest setting. Could be a sneaky way for you to comply to EU standards.

I also agree about getting a hold of Justin at http://www.ebikes.ca/ very knowledgeable guy.
He is the revolution!
 
I've run a few bakfiets (being of dutch heritage) for my family, and have sold a lot of Mxus hubs into scandinavia (I spend a fait bit of time there thanks to friends in Espoo).

I recently put a Mxus V2 onto a icecream bakfiets for ESuser KiwiEV and it's going great since summer. Pm me if you want pricing. Kiitos.
 
Another problem with a rear hub drive is I believe that you have a big hub brake on the left side. No hub motor is going to accommodate that. The other thing that you need to look at is the chain size ... it could be somewhat larger than 1/8 and thus a special chain ring would be needed for the mid drive.
 
LewTwo said:
Another problem with a rear hub drive is I believe that you have a big hub brake on the left side. No hub motor is going to accommodate that. The other thing that you need to look at is the chain size ... it could be somewhat larger than 1/8 and thus a special chain ring would be needed for the mid drive.
Click to expand...

I haven't measured the chain but it's a hefty looking motorbike/moped chain. I can take a measurement tomorrow.
Yes the hub brake is on the left... so I guess it's disk brakes on the front?
 
Samd said:
I've run a few bakfiets (being of dutch heritage) for my family, and have sold a lot of Mxus hubs into scandinavia (I spend a fait bit of time there thanks to friends in Espoo).

I recently put a Mxus V2 onto a icecream bakfiets for ESuser KiwiEV and it's going great since summer. Pm me if you want pricing. Kiitos.
Click to expand...


I looked at your gallery and there were some cargo type bikes but nothing compared in size and weight to the one I have.

Paul
 
Mundo said:
I agree, 250 watts is not enough power. 1000 watts would most likely work, especially in a mid-drive system.

I have a 48volt mid-drive Yuba Mundo (about 100 lbs+), it delivers 1400/1500 watts while going uphill, carrying my Son and I (another 330/340 lbs) fully loaded with stuff, Also, sometimes we pull a 100 lbs trailer with no issues.

You might consider CA-V3, it can be set-up to have 3 power settings and if you power it down, you can set it to resort to the lowest setting. Could be a sneaky way for you to comply to EU standards.

I also agree about getting a hold of Justin at http://www.ebikes.ca/ very knowledgeable guy.
He is the revolution!
Click to expand...

I'm pretty much convinced the mid drive engine will not fit in the bottom bracket, nor will it accommodate the bottom tube :-(
Besides a 1000w motor would put this in a electric moped class (not a bicycle) so no need for pedal assist mid drive motors...so why not a rear wheel hub like MXUS?
The only thing I'd like is that it's as close to the wheel that's on it now 26" tyre with a width (outside measurement) of 52mm. I believe the wheel is 10 page 3,5mm stainless spokes.
It's a beefy looking thing. I'll post some detailed close ups of the rear wheel on Sunday when I get back.
 
Drunkskunk said:
I sort of agree with the vendors saying 1000w kits wouldn't work, mostly because they are wound for too high of speed. If one human power is enough, then a 1000w motor geared properly will be way more than enough.

you might contact Justin at Grin Cyclery. His version of the Stoke monkey kit would be about perfect for something like this. http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/conversion-kits/all-stoked.html
Click to expand...


answering these as I read them (erratically, sorry) I sent Justin an email and lets see. It does look interesting.
 
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