best fireproof case/ system or DIY to store/charge lipo liion safest way

[billvon]

My advise. Throw the battery out the window if possible or out into the open, get far away and call for help.

Love it. Grab a burning metal assembly, pick it up, carry it a dozen feet through your house and throw it . . . somewhere else. Neighbor's yard? Side of your wooden house? Brush next to your house?

Charging (and indeed storage) is best done in a metal container. Ideally that metal container can be flooded with water if needed to reduce the violence of the fire. You can't put out a lithium cell fire, but with enough water you can keep neighboring cells from lighting off. And for large batteries, the water will prevent a melt-through of the container. (More of a risk for aluminum containers of course.)

 

[amberwolf]

i build bigger batteries usually with a strong alu case with a alu tape vent hole that can blow out in case of overpresiure or fire and direct the flames to the ground or a direction where it cant damage other things.

Could you post your test videos of this system in operation during a battery fire, so we can see how well it works?

 

[want to build]

AND
i build bigger batteries usually with a strong alu case with a alu tape vent hole that can blow out in case of overpresiure or fire and direct the flames to the ground or a direction where it cant damage other things. the same principle is used with storing gases like propane or LPG in cars where the blowoff valve is directed to the bottom of the car by a hose.

trying to stop a lithium fire is basically impossible. just let it burn but let it burn in a controlled manner that gives enough time for people to get away. that is all you need to do. once people are gone you can just let it burn.

hi how does directing the flame to the ground a good thing? it will burn the floor.

If i understand what you said yes you drill a hole in metal so there is no pression building up And at the same time you place a alu tape on the hole .. why do you put a tape on the hole ? is it to reduce oxygen alimenting the flame?

 

[flippy]

Could you post your test videos of this system in operation during a battery fire, so we can see how well it works?

i tried a massive overcharge (10v per cell) with a prototype pack but i could not get a proper nuclear event (i used samsung 29E7). a handful of cells leaked and made a mess in the case and ofcourse a horrible smell.

i did create a overpressure situation by hand with a air compressor and that worked fine, did had to test different tapes and hole sizes to get it to burst around 2 bar.

hi how does directing the flame to the ground a good thing? it will burn the floor.
If i understand what you said yes you drill a hole in metal so there is no pression building up And at the same time you place a alu tape on the hole .. why do you put a tape on the hole ? is it to reduce oxygen alimenting the flame?

i dont give a fuc about the road being damaged when there is a fire. i want to create enough time to get people away from the fire, that is all most fire prevention materials like the goop used in tesla packs create: time. after that i dont care in the slightest what happens to the vehicle. insurance can replace the vehicle, it cant replace people.

i place specific type of 3M alu tape over the hole that i tested so the case is sealed until something happens. its basically a low budget burst disk. it blows out at about 2 bars of pressiure, something that is pretty easy to reach when a battery goes proper nuclear. anything les and it will keep it innards inside.

 

[want to build]

i see , its a physical barriere

 

[Hillhater]

hum
someone said that dropped in water it would not smoke exact? how many times the volume of the battery pack does it need to be dropped in ?
Would a 400wh pack suspended in the higher part of an ammo case filled with water under be enough?

.. i have no data to support this comment, but i would say NO, not enough.
You need enough watr to extract the heat without just producing a can full of hot corrosive liquid.
My guess would be 100-200 litres minimum.
And, you will still get smoke & fumes, but much less , hopefully !

Charging (and indeed storage) is best done in a metal container. Ideally that metal container can be flooded with water if needed to reduce the violence of the fire. You can't put out a lithium cell fire, but with enough water you can keep neighboring cells from lighting off. And for large batteries, the water will prevent a melt-through of the container. (More of a risk for aluminum containers of course.)

.. Im am shocked bill !.....we actually agree on something ! :lol:

 

[SniperGaulois]

check youtube for "make a lithium charging box" fireproof... Steel box with high temperature fireplace insulator bricks, vents, and a smoke alarm on top. total budget - 35.

 

[flippy]

i see , its a physical barriere

Just to seal the battery from ouside crap and allow overpressiure and/or fire to be directed in a safe direction.

 

[want to build]

check youtube for "make a lithium charging box" fireproof... Steel box with high temperature fireplace insulator bricks, vents, and a smoke alarm on top. total budget - 35.

is this the exact title or just words of searching that came to your mind cause i see alot of vid but none with fireplaceinsulator in the list it gives me.

 

[SniperGaulois]

is this the exact title or just words of searching that came to your mind cause i see alot of vid but none with fireplaceinsulator in the list it gives me.

Sorry I thought that they were easier to find. maybe it was "battery bunker" ... steel box lined with thermal plasterboard, pyrocrete, refractite type thigns. There are also recipes for crucibles to melt metal in them, made from sand and special types of plaster.... The home blacksmith people know lots of materials, things like 2400f ceramic wool, microwave kilns for melting glass.

here is one i watched

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ubc_Sub36E0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gobFcNzGG9I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-fP4pOiO-Y uses ceramic tile, that dilates and cracks... less good

It's using an ammunition box / metal chest, lining it with thermal plasterboard / cementboard / pryrocrete / refractite type materials... https://youtu.be/azFQco78E2Q

Some crucible clay / ceramic / plaster recipes https://www.instructables.com/id/Clay-Crucible-Recipes/ i don't know what kaolin and kyanite is, it's good for high temps apparently.

 

[SniperGaulois]

there are also firebricks for lining kilns. https://www.google.com/search?q=firebrick&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiBlJvLrNrjAhVZA2MBHX68DLMQ_AUIESgB&biw=1984&bih=1070

very many refractory materials.

 

[want to build]

is this the exact title or just words of searching that came to your mind cause i see alot of vid but none with fireplaceinsulator in the list it gives me.

Sorry I thought that they were easier to find. maybe it was "battery bunker" ... steel box lined with thermal plasterboard, pyrocrete, refractite type thigns. There are also recipes for crucibles to melt metal in them, made from sand and special types of plaster.... The home blacksmith people know lots of materials, things like 2400f ceramic wool, microwave kilns for melting glass.

here is one i watched

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ubc_Sub36E0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gobFcNzGG9I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-fP4pOiO-Y uses ceramic tile, that dilates and cracks... less good

It's using an ammunition box / metal chest, lining it with thermal plasterboard / cementboard / pryrocrete / refractite type materials... https://youtu.be/azFQco78E2Q

Some crucible clay / ceramic / plaster recipes https://www.instructables.com/id/Clay-Crucible-Recipes/ i don't know what kaolin and kyanite is, it's good for high temps apparently.

those are interesting links thx for that . correct me if i im wrong but adding cement is just so that the metal do not turn red right or( transfer heat to adjescent battery right if multiple pack)? the amout of flames that would go out in the end woud be the same as if put in the amo bow without cement is that right?

 

[SniperGaulois]

those are interesting links thx for that . correct me if i im wrong but adding cement is just so that the metal do not turn red right or( transfer heat to adjescent battery right if multiple pack)? the amout of flames that would go out in the end woud be the same as if put in the amo bow without cement is that right?

Yes, perhaps more thermal energy is exhausted out of the box because the insulation absorbs less than steel. So to have thermal damping, you can put a heavy cast iron plate on top of the insulation material inside the box, which absorbs a lot of thermal energy, and reduces the amount reflected straight out of the box. you can end up with 10 pounds of 500'C steel in the box, which absorbs most of the energy. To achieve that, you can put in lots of grey iron / used disk brakes from the garage steel recycle bin... grey iron has graphite shards in it and distributes heat very well, that's why when you crack it it's grey. it's a bit experimental because I don't know if you can melt a disk brake using lithium. Lithium fires reach 600'C? disk brakes can go to 800'C...

I set a panasonic / sanyo battery from 2018 on fire. It was slightly more violent than burning plastic, with the steel breached and the lithium actually on fire. The burning area didn't want to switch off straight away, although I did switch it off pretty easily and there was a hot molten gen in the place of the lithium and electrolytes. So it's good to do a test to see how performant the batteries are in a burn test. You may discover that you have batteries that take 50 times longer to burn than explosive batteries.

It is possible to take most of the heat out of the box through smoke, because the refractory shield can insulate the steel fairly well, and lots of very hot air would blow out of the venting shafts.

The refractory cement prevents hot lithium from touching the steel and raising the steel's temperature to 500'C, red hot. Ideally the venting shafts should comprise a some bends so that sparks can't fly through them. Then the smoke coming from the box would be a few 100 degrees and directed towards a void space. You can use a damping stage after the smoke has escaped from the box also if you want.

The high temperature insulation inside the steel can prevent the steel becoming red hot, and can direct the sparks and the smoke relatively safely.

 

[SniperGaulois]

those are interesting links thx for that . correct me if i im wrong but adding cement is just so that the metal do not turn red right or( transfer heat to adjescent battery right if multiple pack)? the amout of flames that would go out in the end woud be the same as if put in the amo bow without cement is that right?

For thermal damping, grey iron is the best that I can think of. 10kg of cast iron (i.e. a dumbell) can absorb all the energy from a 500Wh battery nearly as fast as the battery can burn. Either disk brake rotors or heavy iron radiators. perhaps have fun with an iron radiator and and a sledghammer and collect some steel bars for lining. correct me if i'm wrong, the lithium can get to 600'C and the cast iron melts at 1100'C. quartz melts at 1400'C also and has twice the thermal capacity as steel, although it absorbs slower. It takes 50 Wh to heat 1kg of iron to 350'C and 100 Wh for 1kg of quartz. So perhaps a mix of iron and sand can absorb thermal energy inside the box. Iron simply transfers the energy a lot faster than quartz.

You can make a variant ammo box based on thermal damping with cement outside of it. Just fill the ammo box with small pieces of grey iron, so that the hot air has to pass through all the iron, and place the ammo box on insulating cement/bricks. A well designed 20 kilo box can withold all the energy from a 1200Wh battery. So drainpipe and radiator shrapnel ( only grey cast iron ) would be evenly distributed inside the box and vent holes would be very small and equally distributed around the iron damping, and place the ammo box in an open top box of refractory board. the size of the iron shrapnel depends on the speed of combustion of the battery. if the battery takes 10-20 minutes to burn (i.e. 28650 from decent manufacturer after 2016) then any grade of iron damping shrapnel can transfer the thermal energy?

 

[flippy]

guys, dont overthink this.

even a single mm of stainless can perfectly handle a lipo fire.
a lipo fire does not get hot enough to melt stainless or most regular steels.
just dont build a box with steel sides and put it together with pop rivets, those are aluminum and will melt so the whole box falls apart when those melt.

just make sure it can vent into a safe direction. that is key. might want to cap it off with simple ductape so it can blow out when a fire does get bad enough it needs to vent.

 

[Hillhater]

.....
just make sure it can vent into a safe direction. that is key. might want to cap it off with simple ductape so it can blow out when a fire does get bad enough it needs to vent.

But i thought the request was for a system which could contain any fire to prevent damage beyond the box ?
This is planning to let the fire escape !....not good for an indoor charge/storage solution.
Is this really any safer than simply charging in an old outdoor barbeque

 

[flippy]

.....
just make sure it can vent into a safe direction. that is key. might want to cap it off with simple ductape so it can blow out when a fire does get bad enough it needs to vent.

But i thought the request was for a system which could contain any fire to prevent damage beyond the box ?
This is planning to let the fire escape !....not good for an indoor charge/storage solution.
Is this really any safer than simply charging in an old outdoor barbeque

the problem is not the physical fireof the lithium itself, that can be contained. the problem is the gases. you cant contain those simply due to volume and the case of a "energetic" release. you need to get rid of those gases fast so that requires a big diameter to prevent pressiure buidup and venting into unwwanted directions.
the only thing you can do is to direct them in a safe direction. in a indoor situation you might want to use those metal pipes used for central heating and stuff and direct that pipe out the building.

control is the only thing you really have. having a flametrower is great fun, unless you cant control in what direction it shoots.

 

[agniusm]

Research starlite material which you can make at home. Search the term on youtube - starlite material