BionX repurposing matching hall sensors with phases

[Jeff23spl]

Hello All
I bought for cheap (50$) a bike with an old bionx (Probably PL250 since it is 24v but i didn't find any tags saying the model....
The guy said it would work with a new battery....It turned out the charger was dead and battery drained itself, I revived the battery for testing purpose and it hold charge but no luck making the bike working. The display don't turn on and i don't get voltage at motor pigtail....I checked connectors and no luck.

Even if i make it works, i will end up with a limited power and locked logic so i gave up with that system, looking into making it more standard with an external controller.

I did watch the video where the guy do it and im in the process of doing the same. I was wondering if there is a way to identify and match winding phases to hall sensors to make it run at first try?
-Is there a standard for color code against position on the rotor?
-Can i follow the rotation order ?
-How can i match the first motor phase to the first sensor ? I mean, is it the closer phase to the sensor that match or something else ?

Otherwise i could wait at the end and swap wires until it works but last time i did try that, it burned a fet of the controller. (I had a middrive motor running backward and my first attempt to change rotation sounded bad for a second until the fet shorted...i found how to properly do it by moving phases AND hall wires, i repaired the controller and it worked...)
Would it help when doing this kind of test to put few ohms resistor in serie of each motor leads to limit current? Or the problem is happening internally and it won't decrease the possible shotrting current ? (i'm doing this unloaded with the wheel in the air...)

Do someone know if the PL250 and PL350 use the same motor with just more voltage or, the motor winding is really made bigger for the 350w model ?
My plan is to run a 12a continious 25a peak controller on it with 36 or 48v battery. A 500-600w continious and 1000-1200w peak. (twice the power) The use won't be extended runtime nor heavy but just a lill more torque and speed would be nice.

 

[999zip999]

I just found this. It needs a BMS and a charger.. The Price is Right. Those bionic x some models had the battery in the wheel and proprietary BMS controller do hickey.
If you find that you like the bike get a cheap kit. And a good battery.

https://batteryhookup.com/products/new-48v-12-15ah-612-36wh-14s5p-18650-lithium-ion-cells

 

[999zip999]

Here you go read some of this

BionX E-Bike Battery Replacement

AS OF AUGUST 2020, WE ARE NO LONGER REBUILDING BIONX BATTERIES DUE TO A HIGH NUMBER OF FAILURES OF THEIR BATTERY MANAGEMENT SYSTEM BOARDS WHICH WE CANNOT REPLACE. WE RECOMMEND CONTACTING OHM CYCLES OR BIONX LEGACY SHOP. Do you have a BionX e-bike that needs a new battery? Let us rebuild...

ebikemarketplace.com

 

[999zip999]

I couldn't tell it looks like they still made bikes like a mid drive X3

You know your bike is probably 15 or 20 years old

 

[Jeff23spl]

Thank you for the option but i have plenty of cells to make a battery, im really into getting rid of everything BionX but just keep motor magnets, hall sensors and windings. It is more like a personnal challenge. Yes that thing have propriatary stuff, controller is on the wheel and battery don't have BMS or anything to monitor individual cells. this is probably why so many fails....it is like they did a lithium pack like a nimh would have been done back in the days...Anyone with original Bionx should look into adding a balancing bms in the battery...

 

[999zip999]

I forget what is your model look like do you have a pic ?

 

[lnanek]

They used a pretty safe battery chemistry that self discharges, IIRC. It's not the standard LCO we use today. Thus the lack of balancing. Annoying how if you leave a pack alone for a year in your garage it will start beeping at you to charge it, though. I've heard the BMS will self brick themselves intentionally if they get too low too. Not a system that's friendly to commodity parts being inserted, unfortunately.

 

[Jeff23spl]

I forget what is your model look like do you have a pic ?

this kit

 

[999zip999]

Yes I remember that part but what does the bike look like ?
You could buy those as kids and put them on your bike but they're quite expensive.

 

[Jeff23spl]

They used a pretty safe battery chemistry that self discharges, IIRC. It's not the standard LCO we use today. Thus the lack of balancing. Annoying how if you leave a pack alone for a year in your garage it will start beeping at you to charge it, though. I've heard the BMS will self brick themselves intentionally if they get too low too. Not a system that's friendly to commodity parts being inserted, unfortunately.

Cells really look like standard green 1600mah 18650. It charge to 4.2 and rest at 4.1. im assuming 4.1 because it drained too low. I'm not expecting any good from them but at least powering up the bike to see if it worth to rebuild the pack...But it isn't.

By searching here and there, i came to same conclusion that it isn't friendly and i don't want to spend much money to be stuck elsewhere....I will try to make it friendly if i can.

I'm at the step of removing the gears and opening the motor to fit phase wires and hall sensors wires for a standard controller...

 

[lnanek]

This page seems to explain the whole "LiMn chemistry batteries are self balancing" thing if you want to read more:

A Tale of 3 BionX Packs: Self Balancing LiMn

I’ve worked with a lot of BionX battery packs over the past two years - stuff I’ve torn apart, stuff I’ve rebuilt. The older packs are an interesting series of packs all built around the Sony US18650V 1600mAh LiMn cells, and these older packs stand out, in a way, by what they don’t have.

www.sevarg.net

 

[Jeff23spl]

This page seems to explain the whole "LiMn chemistry batteries are self balancing" thing if you want to read more:

A Tale of 3 BionX Packs: Self Balancing LiMn

I’ve worked with a lot of BionX battery packs over the past two years - stuff I’ve torn apart, stuff I’ve rebuilt. The older packs are an interesting series of packs all built around the Sony US18650V 1600mAh LiMn cells, and these older packs stand out, in a way, by what they don’t have.

www.sevarg.net

yes that what i have. And curiously, those cells seem to accept to be revived after a deep discharge....not sure how good it remain but i will play with them a bit...

 

[Jeff23spl]

Unfortunately, i had to hammer a bit to open the hub motor and it ended up that 2 magnets came off. I sucessfully glued the first one back with crazy glue. That one was marked for the right polarity installation but not the other. When i checked it against another one to figure out the right way, it slipped from my hands and broke into 3 pieces against one pulling on it. I glued the larger part remaining and told to myself it would just make the motor less efficient....but then, i tought about it twice, and remembered the hall sensors crossing the magnets dictate to the controller when to fire the phases....So will my broken magnet take the whole motor down if the gap between that half and the next one is larger?