Build your own CD battery tab welder for about $100.00+-

It's been a good few years since I've been to a scrapyard, but even then, batteries and such were no longer in any of the cars I could check (I was looking for horns, headlights, tailights, motors, etc., for my ebikes), in any of the scrapyards here in Phoenix. Whether that was because they'd already been recycled or because they were so cheap someone had already purchased them, I don't know--the people at the front desks generally would not or could not answer any questions. The few who would/could, didn't know.

However, the places that sell new batteries collect the old ones (indeed, they often charge a $10 or greater "core charge" if you don't bring in your old one when you buy the new one), and it might be possible to buy the old ones from them, depending on how the laws work in a particular area. (some places it is apparently illegal for them to allow the recycled items out of their hands into anyone's but the official recycler they are contracted with, and those recyclers I've had any chats with wont' or can't resell anything to individuals).

So it can be harder than it shoudl be to get a used car battery.


It's probably easier to either wait till your own car's battery needs replacing anyway, and then use the old one instead of returning it for the core charge money, or to get a friend or neighbor's old battery when *they* are replacing theirs (offering them the core charge money in trade for it).
 
amberwolf , thanks , you have mentioned an important circumstance , MOST home builders ALREADY have in their homes or garages at least ONE CAR BATTERY. In fact you have one , I also have one and I would bet RLT also has one in his home builder room.

The reasons can be different , some have it as an emergency unit to prevent the failure of the one in the car , others have it because it was in their car before became old or weak (putting a new one) , others use it for small solar projects , ... , MANY REASONS , but -> the fact is ALMOST EVERY HOME BUILDER ALREADY HAS 1 CAR BATTERY AT HOME.

Seems in amberwolf's State burocracy has reached car batteries and even in car scrapyards are now difficult to find.

In my European in place , but African in development country -> Spain -> the procedure is more simple:
+ When a full car is sold by the owner to the scarpyard , they inmediatly remove from it the battery and the platinum exaust.
+ They check the battery with a special discharge tester , if battery gives bad results they just put in the recycling container that will be sent to the special lead acid recycling company (usually they pay 0,55 € ->say 0,60$<- per battery kilogram)
+ But if battery gives good discharge results they make it available to the reach of any virtual visitor asking for one.

As an example , a 12V 65AH battery can weigth 18 Kg:
+ If it is ruined , scrapyard receives 18*0.60=10,8$ for it from battery recycler company .
+ If it is OK , scrapyard receives about 25$ from a normal part customer.

Considering that the same battery can cost above 100$ if bought new , in my country buying one surplus one this way is a clever action for a home builder , especially thinking that if 25$ battery failed in 2 months he can sell it directly to the battery recycler company for 11$ , loosing only 14$.

amberwolf the fact that it is so difficult for you to find one , may be a bit what I have explained. I suggest you as an experiment to try to pay in advance one to the scrapyard closest to your home ( leaving them your phone ) so they call you when they have received next.

I hope RLT has it easier there in Ruidoso NM , because I have a personal interest in seducing him to test his skill with a welder powered with 2 lead acid batteries.

The only problem will be the swithching device , but I promise him to explain a cheap easy method to cut current flow if he accepts the challenge :)

But to avoid making this post too long I will post a new one with the reasons I suggested 2 batteries 12V 65Ah in parallel ( instead of 1 or 3 ).

It will be a post about parameters , but I will try to make it as simple and clear as possible.
 
Here is the lead acid battery parameter's post.

I remember in some of my old car batteries I read the number 650 Amp in the past.

I instantly thought about that number when studied RLT topic deeply.

That was just an old number in my memory , far from the thousands Amps Texaspyro mentioned as optimal current.

Even before RLT topic , I had found this elegant Nederland solution :

http://www.avdweb.nl/tech-tips/spot-welder.html

I will make no critic deep inside the solution reached in previous link , just extract from it an important parameter -> 1100 Amp is enough current to weld a 0.15mm Ni tab to a 18650 battery.

I needed then to find a pdf of a real 12V 65Ah lead acid battery (the one I have in my garage and the easiest to find in my country at any car scrapyard)

In spite of Google it was difficult , I had to enter Farnell's car batteries and FINALLY found this model :

View attachment 2

The attractive of it was not the price (almost 200$) , IT HAD A PDF !!!!

I attach the pdf at the end , it is rich of parameters and even has curves , but what I was looking for is in following image:

MainParameters.GIF

There 2 main parameters for me are rounded with a blue and a red oval.

1 battery can give between 500Amp and 800Amp
500 Amp when starting the car during those 3 to 15 seconds.
But up to 800 Amp during a brief short-circuit contact -> or a short tab welder pulse.

I know an old 12V 65Ah car battery at the garage won't supply 800Amp , but maybe 600 Amp during at least 0.1 Sec ,
enough for a tab weld pulse.

According to Netherland's builder 600Amp would not be enough , but what about 1200 Amp ?

I think 1200 Amp can be enough current .

can't be got from a single battery , but what about 2 batteries in parallel ?

Enough parameters to put into forum discussion , any critic will be welcome.

My personal illusion RLT is that you can put your skills in action to see if 12V 1200 Amps is enough for a decent spot weld of a 0.15mm Ni Tab to a 18650 battery.

If you accept the challenge I will suggest the switching off method if you want.

Talking about money -> 2 surplus 12V 65Ah batteries should be 50 bucks in USA , Europe or even Africa.

We still have 50 bucks margin for the new switching device , conductors and electrodes.
 

Attachments

  • GOOD 65AH 12V LEAD ACID.pdf
    682.4 KB · Views: 153
You might need some way to turn off the current if the electrode sticks.

You could probably use a much smaller battery in parallel with a boost cap and get over 1000A, but again you need a way to control the duration.
 
Ricbauer said:
amberwolf , thanks , you have mentioned an important circumstance , MOST home builders ALREADY have in their homes or garages at least ONE CAR BATTERY. In fact you have one , I also have one and I would bet RLT also has one in his home builder room.
Well, since I have no reason to have a car, I don't have one the way most people would (my CrazyBike2, Delta Tripper, and DayGlo Avenger ebikes have served my needs for the last several years, adn regular bikes before that).

And I myself don't have a car battery anymore (the used ones I'd been collecting were all stolen after the housefire, during the cleanup/rebuild); I just have some powerchair SLA batteries that probably aren't very good anymore (and are harder to revive vs FLA car batteries).

But you're rigth in that many people *do* have one, though they may be unwilling to hook it up to anything besides their car.
 
amberwolf , it is a reward for this topic that post 1000 has been reached with such an ecological presence.

Until this topic I never thought in USA could be 1 person able to arrange his life without a car and even being happy that way.

I wish you can be imitated by many more , that extend the use of ebikes and reduce as much as possible (especially in citys) the abusive use of high C02 emiting cars. Any way , please don' t forget my suggestion of how to get 1 surplus 12V 65Ah at your closest car scrapyard -> try a pay in advance . If you also find an attractive blonde agent at the scrapyard and she gets your phone to advice when bat available , who knows if battery bussines can be better ? :D

If you live in a State with a lot of sun to allow ebikes , you could even have a basic solar system to charge your ebikes. Lead acid surplus car batteries still the cheapest solar storage system if you don't discharge them below 70% capacity (they would ruin fast).

Curiously a new advantage has arisen for the still virtual 2 parallel batteries spot welder -> it could work exclusively with sun power energy , allowing battery spot welding in places without laying electric -> Africa , you are in this topic too.

A single 100W solar panel (or even 1 cheap 4W 6''x6'' 2$ cell) could simply charge the 2 batteries and once above 13V they could fire several tab welds or even charge the 18650 batteries afterwards.

But by the moment 2 lead acid parallel tab welder is virtual yet and fechter has noticed our main limitation -> it has to be switched off with controled duration.

At this point instead of going ambicious as nemo did or sophisticated as Texaspyro did , I want to go simple and experimental in homage to RLT , the author of the best solution till the moment for the 100$ limited home builder -> done , detailed and tested.

Electrical security has also been mentioned in this long topic , and I will not be the one who forgets that. This is the reason why I slightly modified Jeremy schematic pulling one of the contacts of the foot pedal to ground.

Under certain severe circumstances lead acid batteries have even exploded , and we would have H2SO4 (one of the most dangerous acids) flying to our clothes or skin.

It is true that the H2S04 in lead acid batteries it is not pure , it is slightly concentrated , but even knowing that I would expressly suggest to have a clean 5 litre clean tap-water tank near the batteries for prevention purposes.

Thinking in security and in keeping RLT still in contact with this topic , I would like to suggest a new element that would bring security to the circuit , security when all the rest of the parts fail , and security to cut current flow in that extreme circumstance.

I am talking about a 2000 Amp DIY foot pedal.

I did one of this in the past and it is not difficult or expensive to build.

I want to keep RLT spirit alive -> experiment simple device before putting mosfet into battle.

This is my simple suggestion sequence :

+ Build the DIY 2000 Amp foot swicht (circuit open released when not pressed)
+ Put it in series with main batteries negative return conductor from welder.
+ Foot-press it strongly when you are ready with 2 electrodes over a tab and want to perform a spot weld.
+ Add a circuit delayer to fire Jeremy relay (for example , replacing the standard foot pedal in Jeremy schematic with the electronic delayer of discretes seen in yellow schematic I posted for car diesel heathers) .
+ 5 seconds after main DIY 2000 Amp foot switch is pressed -> delayed circuit fires Jeremy relay
+ Then thyristor fires current from 2 lead bats to weld the tab.
+ A SPECIAL FUSE IN SERIES with welding conductor to electrodes IS BURNED AFTER THE WISHED TIME DURATION and current stops.
+ User rises the foot from pedal 1 or 2 seconds after weld shot sound (preventing fuse failed and cutting undesired still current in circuit).


That was just a practical sequence , no schematic yet.
This would be 100% per 100% experimental , especially the FUSE part.
This would be terribly unpractical circuit , because a fuse should be burned for every spot weld.

But fascinating from the point of view of those who like experimenting , because you would gain deep knowledge of how fuses work -> a 10Amp fuse can reach hundreds Amp before fusing.

Could be used comercial cheap fuses , or even DIY FREE fuses choosing freely material , diameter and length.

And an important final conclusion , if in spite of the little practical solution , it finally could produce a clean nice tab weld , then it would be the moment to replace the thyristor + fuse by a more efficient , practical an sophisticated method.

But the curious thing is that even for that final efficient solution (using mosfet) , the rudimentary 2000A DIY foot pedal still would be an esential part of the circuit .

RTL , still want to experiment ?

Even if you are tired for that , you have opened a topic where electrical engineering principles have appeared with strength and I admire you for that.
 
OT:

Ricbauer said:
amberwolf , it is a reward for this topic that post 1000 has been reached with such an ecological presence.

Until this topic I never thought in USA could be 1 person able to arrange his life without a car and even being happy that way.
There are actually quite a few. Many of us use cargo bikes (though most look a lot more normal than mine :lol: ); if you look up Liz Canning and her cargo bike videos project, you can see a lot.
http://www.lizcanning.com/Liz_Canning_Creative/Cargo_Bike_Documentary.html
http://www.google.com/search?q=Liz+Canning+and+her+cargo+bike+videos+project

And those are just the ones that heard of the project and made videos--probalby a tiny percentage of those actually doing it. And it doesn't include those not using cargo bikes, who just bike around all the time normally.

But, unfortunately, most people do prefer a car, and most of those haven't even considered any other option. Those who have either don't like the compromises they'd make without a car, or the safety issues (caused frequently by other people like themselves that won't get out of their cars and ride a bike), or just the discomfort of not having air conditioning in their big steel cage. ;)


All that said, I do sometimes ride in a car or truck with others, and I have used my friend Bill as a large-haul cargo mover with his pickup truck, simply because he's offered and it's been easier than doing the same moving with a bike trailer. However, at some point "soon" he's getting rid of the truck and going to a small hybrid car, and then I'll need to have my medium-large cargo trailer built and tested so I can use that instead. :)

Any way , please don' t forget my suggestion of how to get 1 surplus 12V 65Ah at your closest car scrapyard -> try a pay in advance .
The problem is that they can't sell me the batteries at all, or at least taht was the problem when I'd last checked. The ones I'd had before the fire were from individuals that didn't want them.

Either way, ATM I don't need one, as I have plenty of other batteries to do things with, and I don't need one for a welding setup cuz I do actually have a couple "real" car audio caps, and other bits, courtesy of Texaspyro, though at present they are not setup as a welder, just in storage till I get the rest of the stuff reorganized...which could be a good long time at this point.


If you live in a State with a lot of sun to allow ebikes , you could even have a basic solar system to charge your ebikes. Lead acid surplus car batteries still the cheapest solar storage system if you don't discharge them below 70% capacity (they would ruin fast).

True, and when I get more solar panels than the couple of bare glass cells ~1sq ft each I've got now, I'll start needing storage for the power. :) That'll be a while, though (years, at least).

As for a lot of sun...Phoenix, AZ, USA is one of the sunniest places in the world. ;)
 
I am wondering if this here 3.5F audio Capacitor would work with the SCR, buck converter etc.
https://www.amazon.ca/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=3.5+Farad

Does the CD type welding heat up the battery much, because I have seen some of the Microwave Transformer welders and its glowing, easy to do but I'd just solder rather then do it that way.

Anyways, originally posted this in that thread, while this thread was open in the next window tab over. I forgot my other questions, but thats my main concern, is heating the battery up. I read too, that I should look at the specs of the capacitor for a low "ESR", its a spec of the capacitor. The person who mentions this, E.S. member: Jeremy Harris 4570 posts. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2633&start=125#p59375


---------------------


Ya just found the audio cap info here.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2633&start=200#p94823

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2633&start=225#p146834
From what little I've gathered from those who've used them, the big car audio capacitors can have have a capacity and ESR that are sometimes a bit exaggerated, but the simplest way around this is to just use more capacity than you think you might need.



How far off would a 3.5F audio cap be?
I dont really care if it is off by 0.25F, just dont want to be bothered hooking lots of caps up with copper strips.

I will keep reading, no doubt I will have more questions. Im already a little confused on the diagrams.
So Harris' diagram, theres no 8.2 ohm from diode to probe?
*Its just 2 posts up from my audio cap link.*

--------------------------------

Do you think the BOSS company are liars? Looks like they are Crapola. Well I will buy the highest Farad cap, at the lowest price.
http://www.bossaudio.com/auto/car-audio-sound-system-auto-stereo-capacitor-farad-boss-audio-cpbk4/
24V/16V and E.S.R. (Equivalent Series Resistance): ≤0.00195 Ω
 
To answer your questions:

Will that cap work? Hard to tell. Audio caps are in general notorious for not having the rated capacitance. Some brands are good, in that they are reasonably close, others not so much.

Does the CD type welding heat up the battery much...? No.

About the ESR of the audio cap. Some are speced, some not. My opinion is better to get one with a spec, than not. Even if the spec may not be accurate. In general, again my opinion, the ESR is probably OK.

Anyone else who has an opinion, and may or may not disagree, is completely welcome to. I don't care. :)

Dave
 
There are some tested-to-match-their-specs audio caps here in this thread, and probably in other threads about this sort of thing, if you want to be *sure* to get a cap that will actually do what you want. I think Texaspyro posted a list, including some known *not* to be good.

I'd also bet that at least some car-audio forums would have a tested-good/bad list, as I'm sure they care about how well they actually work, too.


FWIW, there are pics somewhere around here of some of these audio caps opened up and finding a tiny little cap inside the huge can, with a big weight (piece of brick or something, I think it was) instead of actually having the capacitor it purports to have inside. So beware of what you buy--it might not be anything like what it says it is. :/


There's also others that are simply a PCB / etc with a bunch of regular small (probably not low-ESR) caps on them, inside a big metal or plastic can--they don't usually total up to anywhere near the rating marked on the external can, either.
 
Here is my variant of "$100" spot welder...

My first attempt was by using microwave transformer, however it turn out there is not enough instant power requred for a quality weld.
Next after somem more research I decided that capacitor discarge welder should be the way to go, however I did not like SCR luck of control from one side and expencive yet unpredictable quality audio caps from other side, so I decided to have the cap bank built from regular inexpencive capacitors, exatly as green666 already did.
My bank is having same characteristics as green666, 1F from 100pcs 10.000uf 16V wired in paralel, that lower the ESR and helps to get high currents. As a control unit I decided not to invent the wheel and just to look around for an inexpencive and easy to reproduce platform, then https://malectrics.eu fit the bill; I bought his PCBs only and started to put it all toghether. Next I found I don't have the required display thus could not use his latest SW out of the box, then as a quick workaround I reused one of his earlier firmware on which pulse characteristics are adjusted by a pot...in fact I left only welding function, and it was enough.
The result was very impressive, especially after failed experience with MOT, the weld quality was outstanding and very stable, alredy build 13s4p battery for my son bike and all the work was done in one evening! As a quick charging option I am using server PSU (plenty of them on ebay) and charge the bank via 12V auto bulbs, cheap and quick solution for high inrush current, with used ones it takes about 5-6 seconds for recharge the bank to max 12.6V, good enough time to reposition for next weld.
Sure enough the cap bank is almost the most expencive part, even considering I used relativelly cheap caps from aliexpress, however it is not more expencive then one good quality and real capacitance audio cap. Another point, I am pretty sure that cap bank is more robust since the total current is distributed among 100 relativelly small caps and I beleive it is less prone to failure.
capBank1.jpgcapBank2.jpgdetails1.jpgdetails2.jpgdetails3.jpgdetails4.jpgdetails5.jpgready.jpg
 
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