Building up a 1984 Schwinn Super Sport - BMS Battery?

[majornelson]

Finished up the project! I was looking for a classic English city bike style... the bike rides and performs well.

The seat on the before pictures was mine (the original bike had no seat). The bike was in great shape and cleaned up nicely using metal cleaner... I ended up using the frame, stock brakes, front rim and crank. I put on new (28mm Schwalbes- barely enough clearance in this frame) tires, cables, motor, battery and controller in custom leather case (made locally), 7 speed freewheel and derailleur, new handlebars, quill stem and various adapters. Sourced parts from Amazon, Velo-Orange, Rivbikes and my parts bin!

(BTW, I plan to keep an eye on the controller for heat. It is in the top of the bag and elevated above the battery. There is air flow coming in from the front of the bag- the gap below the top tube- and through the back. But if I have overheating problems, I plan to have the leather shop add some type of hole pattern in the front and back. If that doesn't work, I can mount it behind the bag- just less stealthy.

Thanks to everyone for all of the help and feedback!

Here are a couple of before and after photos:

Before-
View attachment 4



After:

 

[leelorr]

I have not used that controller, but from what I have read in other posts:

P1 = I think that this refers to the number of pulses per revolution from your PAS sensor times the gear reduction of your motor. I don't know which Q100 you have, but the Q100H for example has an internal gear reduction ratio of 12.6 to 1. I have seen PAS sensors with 12 and with 6 pulses per revolution. You can tell by looking at the sensor you probably installed on your crankset. So, for a Q100H, 12.6 times 12= 151.2 for example. Note that other Q100 motors have different internal gear reduction numbers like 5 to 1 or 8 to 1, most are listed in the specs at BMS Battery for the motors. The ratios are different for the different RPM motors also. There is a discussion of which internal gear ratios are used for which motors here in the thread at:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=70369

P5 = I saw in the instructions that a setting of "0" causes the display to show the actual battery voltage. Since you are running the controller and display on a different voltage than it is designed for, I would try a setting of "0" first.

The other settings you chose are the same I would probably try at first also.

Please post your opinions as to how the PAS system feels. I liked my BBS02 PAS system, it seemed pretty straight forward and easy to understand. Friends that have borrowed my bike also got it figured out very quickly. I rode a Bosch torque sensor bike on a long ride one day and actually liked the BBS02 system just as much or better. I am thinking of building a Q100 or Q128 cruiser bike and would like to know how your bike works for you.

Thanks,
Leelorr

 

[majornelson]

Thanks! I'll update this once I ride the bike a bit. My initial reaction is the Assist Level doesn't feel like an assist but feels more like a throttle setting. But this could be a problem with my settings in the controller. Not certain.

I thought that the "P1" parameter referred to the number of magnets or coils in the motor, not the PAS system. But in re-reading the manual it could be either.

From the LCD-3 manual:
"P1 Motor Characteristic Parameter Setting Mode
P1 is motor characteristic parameter setting mode. P1 = motor gear reduction ratio× number of rotor magnet pieces, just rounding if there’s any decimal"

I understand that the Cycle Analysts v3 can link to a Thun torque sensor and, if set correctly, works well. But the torque sensor is expensive and it looks like the setup takes some patience. And maybe a soldering iron?

I'll try a couple of settings to see if there is a difference.

Lee

 

[majornelson]

Okay, so here's my read for this:

BMS Battery lists the Q100 201 rpm (not H) as having an 8.2:1 (they just show 8.2 but it must be 8.2 not 8:2). They also list the "rotor alnico number" as 16 and I'm assuming that this is the number of "rotor magnetic pieces" detailed in the LCD-3 documentation. And also that they are not referring to the number of PAS magnets, which for me is 8 (just counted).

So, for the P1 parameter, I should enter either 131 (based on rotor alnico) or 65 (based on magnetic rotor poles in the PAS).

Thoughts? I guess I should just go try it...

Lee

 

[majornelson]

Update: Set "P1" to 131 and did a quick check. Bike will now quickly climb to 23 mph vs. being limited to about 19.5 mph before. (My prior settings was 87 and I also had tried 70- which felt about the same.) 131 feels very different.

My intuition tells me that 131 is the right number and P1 is based on rotor magnets, not PAS magnets.

I'll do a more complete test trip tomorrow but "Assist Level" feels more like throttle level than true torque assist.

I'd welcome any tips here... I'd really like a torque assist in this setup!

Lee

 

[motomech]

It's hard to qualify what a PAS should feel like, but I'll take a stab at this.
So let me get this straight, you are running a Con63 sine wave controller on 52 Volts, correct?
I'm no Electrical Engineer, but my guess is whatever circuitry that "Imitates" the "torque" values, is being over-loaded.
Part of my thinking here is, the Con63 was originally a rather simple square- wave controller and I wouldn't be suprised if it's " re-engineering" was comprised of an added module, much in the way Lyen mod.s a sensor type Infinreon into a sensorless controller. That, and I have found that over-Volting(And inversly, dividing input signal voltage)can tend to make simple(read; cheap)controllers feel harsh.

I tried an early version of the SO6S(36V) on 50 plus Volts, but it didn't last long enough to try the PAS and even lowering the Voltage to 46V, the LiPoly chemistry that I run never seemed to work well w/ that controller/S-LCD-3 combo.
Given that I didn't really want an LCD display on my bars anyway, I went w/ a simple square wave controller w/ the LED810 display and have not missed any of the fancy set-up's features.
The degree that a simple 3-speed, speed limiting controller compromises PAS performance(compared to a sine wave 5-level 'torque imitation"controller)is a function of system overall power.
My assist bike uses a Q100 "201", an Elifebike 17 Amp controller and it's run on 46 Volts (12S LiPoly) and the three speed limits are(guessing here,no speedo);
1st.-12 to 13 mph
2nd.-15 to 16mph
3rd.-18 to 19 mph
So you see, no major gaps. And since system power is low, no significant lurching between speeds. Which is good because, riding w/ PAS only, I am often switching between limiter speeds as I row the shifter up and down in an effort to keep the "pedal pressure" right for my 100 Watts of leg power
My 2WD, by comparision, has a larger geared "260" motor on the rear and a 25 Amp controller(still on 12S)and does 22 to 23 mph(25 in 2WD). I don't shift much and tend to use the PAS only in a top speed cruise situation. The PAS works well enough, but is not as seamless as the lower powered system.
Having said all this, I would suggest you try limiting that Current in the S-LCD3 display.
If this doesn't provide the "feel" you are seeking, I would say, don't discard the idea of using a simple square controller "out of hand".
One of the reasons I like the ELB controllers is, they have a "soft-start" feel to them.
And they are avail. on Ebay for $30 to $40 shipped(I use the 9-FET) w/the 810 display.

 

[majornelson]

Motomech,

Thanks!

I'm used to a throttle where I can feather the touch of the motor (or just ignore my legs and push it- although I can't seem to ride without peddling, even if it's just gratuitous ).

I've been looking for more of a "at any given speed, provide x% of effort" type of PAS, which would mean to go faster, I'd have to peddle faster or harder or more... something.

I think you're right, that the current setup is over-volted and may be negatively impacting the "feel" of the simulated torque sensor. For example, If I'm pedaling at 10 mph, I'd expect a true torque sensor to not change the speed if I changed the assist level. Instead (changing from 3 to 4 assist level) would just mean my effort would decrease in respect to the speed.

I have the LCD-5 display which seems to have a more limited set of options than the LCD-3. I like the idea of a soft start and will check out the ELB controllers.

Really appreciate your input!

Lee

 

[leelorr]

Motomech,

I am wanting to build a stealthy, quiet bike next, like the OP in this thread.
I was under the impression that a square wave controller would be quite a bit noisier than a sine wave one. Have you tried both types on your bike?

Thanks,
Leelorr

 

[motomech]

I have used all kinds of controllers and every version of Q100.
It's been years since I used the old KU 63/65 square wave controllers, so I won't comment on them.
But I think a square wave can be as quiet as a sine wave if the power level is low.
At one time I was using the Infineons and even a Lyen Mini Monster and while these hot rod 20 to 25 amp controllers really ,made the Q100 jump, they made them buzzy as well.
Of all the versions of the Q100, the "C"(cassette)is by far the quietest. It also has the lowest power handling capacity, so perhaps that has something to do with it being so quiet.
The Q100C run by the SO6S was dead silent, as is my current set-up, the Q100C run by the ELB 17A square wave. On my other bike, the Q100H run by the same controller is noticeably buzzy. Not sure why.
But it's all relative, even that combo is drown out by tire noise @ 10 to 15 mph.

 

[motomech]

Motomech,

Thanks!

I'm used to a throttle where I can feather the touch of the motor (or just ignore my legs and push it- although I can't seem to ride without peddling, even if it's just gratuitous ).

I've been looking for more of a "at any given speed, provide x% of effort" type of PAS, which would mean to go faster, I'd have to peddle faster or harder or more... something.

I think you're right, that the current setup is over-volted and may be negatively impacting the "feel" of the simulated torque sensor. For example, If I'm pedaling at 10 mph, I'd expect a true torque sensor to not change the speed if I changed the assist level. Instead (changing from 3 to 4 assist level) would just mean my effort would decrease in respect to the speed.

I have the LCD-5 display which seems to have a more limited set of options than the LCD-3. I like the idea of a soft start and will check out the ELB controllers.

Really appreciate your input!

Lee

I have the LCD-5 display which seems to have a more limited set of options than the LCD-3.

Yeah, that didn't occur to me.

There is the inverse of the old "solder the shunt" dirt floor mod, filing it down for less current.
I tried it once, grinding it w/ a Dremel tool. But I didn't blow out the particules of metal dust and shorted out the PCB
If you decide to try this, I would recommend a way to monitor Amps, so as not to go so far as to hurt hill climbing ability.
GBK doesn't give the Amp rating for the Con63, but @ 52 Volts, you have some to give up.

Here's a link to the 6-FET version of the controller I use;
http://www.ebay.com/itm/36V-48V-250W-14A-6FET-ebike-Electric-Bicycle-Brushless-Motor-Controller-with-LED-/222273910100?var=&hash=item33c08eb554:m:mgxcwDHTuIgK4sxrLPhfyrQ
Note that it can be ordered in 48V version.

 

[chas58]

I have used all kinds of controllers and every version of Q100.
It's been years since I used the old KU 63/65 square wave controllers, so I won't comment on them.

Man, you are a wealth of information on controllers (and other Q100 info)!!!

FYI, I use controllers similar to the KU 63/65 (mine sold by greenbikekit). Motor is very very quite (36v15a).

 

[chas58]

Beautiful build. I love it! I have all kinds of plans to make a battery bag like yours, but haven't done it yet. THat works great with a small battery like that. I even have the leather for my battery case (bought a "stained" long leather jacket from Salvation Army.

What size tires did you use? looks like they just fill the available space on that bike just right. I always wondered how big one could go on those old schwinn frames...

 

[majornelson]

Beautiful build. I love it! I have all kinds of plans to make a battery bag like yours, but haven't done it yet. THat works great with a small battery like that. I even have the leather for my battery case (bought a "stained" long leather jacket from Salvation Army.

What size tires did you use? looks like they just fill the available space on that bike just right. I always wondered how big one could go on those old schwinn frames...

Thanks! Took it out for a (cold) 20 mile ride on Sunday and loved it. Once I was able to tune the CON63, the PAS response was much better. Very impressive... I used about 3 AH during the ride, peddled at an assist level of 2 and sometimes 3. Very smooth!

I used Schwalbe Marathon GG RLX Wire Bead Tire (700X28) tires. And you're right, I have only mm to spare but they fit. This bike (Super Sport) was a racing bike so the clearances are tight. It rolls true and has a quickness to it's handling (not surprising given the race geometry of the frame).

I have another old Trek (1985 620, I think) which is a touring bike. It has significantly more clearance. I restored it (no electric) and replaced the 27" wheels with 700c and either 32 or 35mm tires.

So it really depends on the frame. I like the Marathon 700x28. It's a tough tire that can roll over gravel paths but feels tight on pavement. I've never been a fan of knobby tires on pavement, FWIW.

 

[addicted2climbing]

Wow what a great build. Are you able to get 20 miles of PAS riding on the 7ah Mini Cube? I was looking to build a similar bike with a Q128. What is the total added system weight of your build? Total weight? With the Q100 201 at 52V what speeds are you seeing with moderate pedaling in PAS on the flats? My bike has 32 hole rims so the Q100 would be nice to keep it looking stock, yet being 230lbs the Q128 is likely the better option.

Your setup would work great on my wifes bike which is a step through so battery space is tight. I look forward to seeing more posts on how your liking the bike. Have you found any heat issues in the bag? Were the added holes you said you may add required?

Take care,

Marc

 

[majornelson]

Marc,

Thanks! I just finished it and have limited riding experience but enough to give you basic impressions.

My battery is the Luna 5.8 Ah (52 volt so about 301 watt hours)... $229 as of 12/6/16 and at 3.3lbs. Nice little battery for an assist. My recent trip was about 20 miles and I had an assist level of 2 or 3 in (out of 5) and I pedaled. Heart rate around from 125 to 145 bpm which means I was working at it but had an average speed of about 18 mph even with a moderately hilly terrain and a very upright riding position. I started at around 58 volts and finished at 50 volts. This implies that I used about half of the battery. If I had gone slower and pedaled less I would have gotten different results, most likely using more battery. Although I had 20 miles at a robust level of pedaling, I think that you could get 20 miles or more out of the battery with a moderate level of assist and a a slower speed. For me, the setup works.

I started with a relatively light street racer from 1984 and added decent components (in terms of quality and weight) to it. I think the bike without the electric parts came in around 22 - 24 lbs (including a kickstand, middle of the line crankcase/drive system and 28mm heavy duty tires). I added about 8 lbs of electric components including the battery, bag, controller, brake levers, display, motor and cables. Regardless, I just weighed it and it is 31.8 lbs as configured. Sweet...

With a PAS setting of 2 or 3 (depending on terrain) I see a 16 to 19 mph speed with pedaling. At an assist of 5, it will go up to 22+ mph on the flats with light pedaling but I think the battery usage will be much higher and my range closer to 15 miles or so. At best... I really like the sine wave controller vs. my others as it is quiet, the PAS is smooth at mid-range assist levels and it is small.

I really like the light weight of the bike. I'm a biker (about 190 lbs) and have a few road bikes that I really enjoy. All of my other electric bikes are so heavy that they can't be used effectively without the throttle. (My largest is a Trek 8.4 with a MAC motor and a 16 AH battery at 52 volts and weighs 65 lbs. It will go almost 33 mph and feels like a small motorcycle but I like it too.)

I'm considering adding either a 100H or 100C to one of my road bikes with drops... Inspiration from d8veh and others. It's like having a tailwind constantly!

Hope this helps. Let me know if you have other questions.

Lee

PS How many bikes are too many? Answer- one less than a divorce... (As told to me by a friend who has a lot of bikes.)

 

[addicted2climbing]

Marc,

Thanks! I just finished it and have limited riding experience but enough to give you basic impressions.

My battery is the Luna 5.8 Ah (52 volt so about 301 watt hours)... $229 as of 12/6/16 and at 3.3lbs. Nice little battery for an assist. My recent trip was about 20 miles and I had an assist level of 2 or 3 in (out of 5) and I pedaled. Heart rate around from 125 to 145 bpm which means I was working at it but had an average speed of about 18 mph even with a moderately hilly terrain and a very upright riding position. I started at around 58 volts and finished at 50 volts. This implies that I used about half of the battery. If I had gone slower and pedaled less I would have gotten different results, most likely using more battery. Although I had 20 miles at a robust level of pedaling, I think that you could get 20 miles or more out of the battery with a moderate level of assist and a a slower speed. For me, the setup works.

I started with a relatively light street racer from 1984 and added decent components (in terms of quality and weight) to it. I think the bike without the electric parts came in around 22 - 24 lbs (including a kickstand, middle of the line crankcase/drive system and 28mm heavy duty tires). I added about 8 lbs of electric components including the battery, bag, controller, brake levers, display, motor and cables. Regardless, I just weighed it and it is 31.8 lbs as configured. Sweet...

With a PAS setting of 2 or 3 (depending on terrain) I see a 16 to 19 mph speed with pedaling. At an assist of 5, it will go up to 22+ mph on the flats with light pedaling but I think the battery usage will be much higher and my range closer to 15 miles or so. At best... I really like the sine wave controller vs. my others as it is quiet, the PAS is smooth at mid-range assist levels and it is small.

I really like the light weight of the bike. I'm a biker (about 190 lbs) and have a few road bikes that I really enjoy. All of my other electric bikes are so heavy that they can't be used effectively without the throttle. (My largest is a Trek 8.4 with a MAC motor and a 16 AH battery at 52 volts and weighs 65 lbs. It will go almost 33 mph and feels like a small motorcycle but I like it too.)

I'm considering adding either a 100H or 100C to one of my road bikes with drops... Inspiration from d8veh and others. It's like having a tailwind constantly!

Hope this helps. Let me know if you have other questions.

Lee

PS How many bikes are too many? Answer- one less than a divorce... (As told to me by a friend who has a lot of bikes.)

Hello Lee,

Thank you for such an informative reply. This is my first ebike build and its been tough to make a decision due to a few issues I have. My bike is a 700c commuter and weighs 25 lbs stock and i also want to make the conversion as light a weight as possible for my needs. One of the issues I am struggling with is by going with the luna cube it forces me to use an external controller and in doing so I lose the clean setup of the waterproof wiring harness that I would have with the heavier 09 or 08 battery with integral controller. One way around this is I choose the 09 bottle battery controller only which is designed to plug into the 09 case. I was thinking I could use it which retains the cleaner wiring harness and then just add the mating connector to the battery and mount it in front. If I wanted to get real fancy, I could make my own carrier that interfaces with the 09 case controller and also acts as a tray to hold the Luna cube. Or I go the route you did and and put it all in a bag. One thing nice about the waterproof wiring setup is it comes with wired brake levers and I was planing to cut the wire short and add a momentary switch for the cutoff to my hydro levers. In your setup, do you have brake cutoff on your levers? Did you find it difficult to manage individual wired connections at the controller and then running them to the components outside of the bag? How did you hide you wires? Did you also consider the Q128? I wonder if the waterproof harness can be bought anywhere on its own? BMS does not sell it nor does Ebike kit.

I also want to pedal. so low power and PAS is fine with me. Like you said I want the tailwind feeling for my work commute which is only 11 miles each way. I currently ride in once a week but would likely do more if the bike got me home faster after a long day of work. My ride home is ever so slightly uphill (400' gain over 11 miles) but just enough that there is no coasting so I would welcome the tailwind feeling. When I order I will likely buy the bare Q100 and Q128 since the shipping add on is only a few dollars and whichever one I end up not using can go on a second build or possibly my wifes bike. I just need to sort out the controller issue.

I am open to any advice you have based on your build.

 

[majornelson]

heavier 09 or 08 battery with integral controller

Marc,

Can you provide a link to the batteries that you mention?

If you look closely at the pictures, you can see the wires have been zip tied to the frame. The run underneath the top tube and up the back of the seat tube. I use plastic cabling mesh if I have a number of wires (which is used underneath the top top). Any wire on the bike that is black if for the electric motor. You can also see the zip ties if you look. I used white on the handlebars and black on the frame. You can even see the brake cutoff wires below the bell. The hardest thing to hide is the gaggle of wires and connectors at the controller. I don't understand why the controllers are so ugly and the connections so gangly. A smart guy could make some money here.

1) I have the standard ebike brake levers with cutoff on the bike. I think that some type of brake cutoff is needed when you're using PAS. Not required if you're just using throttle.
2) I didn't consider the Q128. For this bike I didn't care if I used a freewheel or cassette. Also the Q128 is about 1.8 lbs heavier. And it's black. None of it a big deal. Others may be able to contribute on why Q128 vs. Q100. Looks like a decent option, regardless.

I've also put a rack and a rear bag on the back and then put the controller and battery either both in the bag or I've spray painted the controller to match the rack and then mounted it either under the rack or on the supports that attach the rack to the seat tube. But I put all of the connections in the bag with the battery. One other way I hid the connectors was with a small seat bag. I don't have a picture and the bike is at our beach house... This is my sixth build...

Good luck.

 

[addicted2climbing]

heavier 09 or 08 battery with integral controller

Marc,

Can you provide a link to the batteries that you mention?

If you look closely at the pictures, you can see the wires have been zip tied to the frame. The run underneath the top tube and up the back of the seat tube. I use plastic cabling mesh if I have a number of wires (which is used underneath the top top). Any wire on the bike that is black if for the electric motor. You can also see the zip ties if you look. I used white on the handlebars and black on the frame. You can even see the brake cutoff wires below the bell. The hardest thing to hide is the gaggle of wires and connectors at the controller. I don't understand why the controllers are so ugly and the connections so gangly. A smart guy could make some money here.

1) I have the standard ebike brake levers with cutoff on the bike. I think that some type of brake cutoff is needed when you're using PAS. Not required if you're just using throttle.
2) I didn't consider the Q128. For this bike I didn't care if I used a freewheel or cassette. Also the Q128 is about 1.8 lbs heavier. And it's black. None of it a big deal. Others may be able to contribute on why Q128 vs. Q100. Looks like a decent option, regardless.

I've also put a rack and a rear bag on the back and then put the controller and battery either both in the bag or I've spray painted the controller to match the rack and then mounted it either under the rack or on the supports that attach the rack to the seat tube. But I put all of the connections in the bag with the battery. One other way I hid the connectors was with a small seat bag. I don't have a picture and the bike is at our beach house... This is my sixth build...

Good luck.

Lee thanks again for the great info.

Here is a link to the 09 Battery controller module that I was thinking of using as a workaround to get an external controller setup with small luna battery and still keep the waterproof wiring harness.
https://bmsbattery.com/controller/698-sine-wave-controller-for-09-case-controller.html

I figured this could be hidden in the lower triangle just above the bottom bracket and have the small luna battery just in front. Another option is an Em3Ev battery that can be custom made for just a bit more weight and more ah yet still under 4 lbs.

I had considered adding a rear rack and saddle bags as you mentioned in a way to hide the controller under the rack with the battery inside. At the moment I am leaning away from that in favor of the waterproof harness solution.

Here is a link to the 08 battery with an integrated 18amp controller. 18 amps is likely fine for the Q100 but perhaps a bit lite for the Q128.
https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/774-48v116ah-case-08-bottle-panasonic-battery-pack-battery.html

Here is a link to the 09 battery and you can see where the controller module is located toward the rear of the case.
https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/680-48v116ah-bottle-09-panasonic-battery-pack-battery.html

Best regards,

Marc