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C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Just_Ed said:
The why part for me...Its all well and good to say my set up will be like the Fourth of July, but with out knowing and understanding, what specific, action (in my drawing) will a cause this short, it doesn't come into focus.
please, please, draw it out like i said and showed you.

then follow what i said about the connections.

then you will *see* how the wiring works, how it must work, to do this.

since i cannot be there with you to show you this, and words are obviously not going to get the point across, it's the only way i can think of to show you.
 
amberwolf said:
Just_Ed said:
The why part for me...Its all well and good to say my set up will be like the Fourth of July, but with out knowing and understanding, what specific, action (in my drawing) will a cause this short, it doesn't come into focus.
please, please, draw it out like i said and showed you.

then follow what i said about the connections.

then you will *see* how the wiring works, how it must work, to do this.

since i cannot be there with you to show you this, and words are obviously not going to get the point across, it's the only way i can think of to show you.

OK. I will do that. Besides, how can a man refuse, when one say's please.... twice. :) :)
But for now I must go BBQ some pork steaks.

Later
Ed
 
Gentlemen I must take a break from this subject.

I've been consumed by it, for day's.

I have learned much from you.

I have learned how to make a 4 x 12v x 35ah battery into .... 48v x 35ah battery ( Series )
I have learned how to make a 4 x 12v x 35ah battery into .... 12v x 70ah battery ( Parallel )(Maybe 140)
I have learned how to make a 4 x 12v x 35ah battery into .... 24v x 70ah battery ( Series & Parallel )( I think)
I have learned I can't do what I'm thinking. It's time to accept that, and move on.

I'm receiving my motor components tomorrow, so it's time to move on.
I am waiting on a reply, regarding the Nissan Leaf Modules, so I need to clear my mind to tackle that technology.
I will revisit this subject, when and if, there is new relevant information, which would impact the discussion.

Thank you, to everyone, for your gracious help.
Respectfully
Ed
 
I guess I just can't leave a problem unsolved.

I've been reading over everyone's replies and diagrams, and I am having the same confusion as you are in regards to the diagrams.

Although they may be 'standard', they are more dificult for me to follow than my own. However, I have been trying to make your's work. Along the line, I think I discovered the 'WHY'. If I'm correct, (and I sure hope so) or very nearly correct, then it was the, (can't see the trees, for the forest) thing.

Discovering the 'WHY'

In my diagram, I have 4 batteries. In your diagrams, you have 4 batteries.
Now here is the light bulb thing..... the end result converts 4 batteries,to 2 batteries, thus that is when the shorting between the positive and the negative takes place.

I've tried to illustrate that by redoing my diagram. For those that can't read my diagram I'm sorry.
Although this revelation, doesn't meet my power needs, it does take some pressure off the not understanding.
IF I'M CORRECT...I sure could use an 'upper' right about now. OH yeah!...my motors and components will be arriving soon. OK I'm up a bit.

 
For every upper, there's always a downer, not far behind. Such is life.

Got my motor order about 3 hours ago. MY UPPER 😁
Missing & extra parts in the order ......... MY DOWNER :(

Opened the box and right away, there's a problem. See those twist throttles....their not supposed to be there.



Missing parts

1 T8F 11T sprocket
1 T8F chain
1 Foot throttle



Those motors are heavy. Hope they are as powerful as they are heavy.
The physical size looks to be manageable, with the space I have.



Also working on (you may not like this), but I'm now trying to lay out the Nissan Leaf batteries, as I think they should fit in the car.
NOT saying I'm going to use them, just in the planning stage, to see if they will fit.
Then there's the 'connection' part. 🤔🧐
Waiting on TechDirect to reply to my questions.

But for the sake of discussion, this is where I'm at.
This configuration would work great, with the limited space just behind the back rest of the seats.
They are all separated for this visual, but will be snugged up against each other when bolted in place.



UPDATE
The supplier has notified me that the chain and sprocket will be here tomorrow.
Still no word about the missing foot throttle, or what they want me to do with the extra twist throttles.
 
in your image you show some things in series correctly, except that the center cell that's by itself , and boht of the center cells on the side stacks, are wired backwards, which will reduce the voltage of the system by whatever that negative voltage is, and damage or destroy the cells.

for series connections, you must always run the positive of the more negative cell to the negative of the next more positive cell.

meaning, it must be connected as shown in the attached edited version of your image.

if you are trying to make some other connection system than simple series of the cells, then you'll have to explain what you intended to do so we can help you connect them correctly for that.
 

Attachments

  • Nissan-Leaf-wiring.png
    Nissan-Leaf-wiring.png
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Ed,
I assume each of those batteries in your diagram is a 7.4v Leaf module ?
...and that you are wanting to make a 48v pack for your project ?
If so, you need to connect those modules in SERIES ,.. =ve to +ve on each connection...not the -ve to -ve, and +ve to +ve, that you show in your diagram.
Remember also that fully charged, those 7 modules in series will be at 56 + volts, so check your controllers HVC settings.
Sorry AW, i dont think you have shown a correct series connected pack either ?
 
Hillhater said:
Sorry AW, i dont think you have shown a correct series connected pack either ?
whoops, i missed something in there. :oops: fixed the diagram in the previous post now, and the text in the post to match.
 
To be honest, I was only drawing the batteries in the configuration, to visualize how they would fit into the body.

There was no regard to the Pos/Neg aspect of the wiring, at the time. Only to replicate the order, as I saw them in their photo. https://www.techdirectclub.com/solar-rv-powerwall-nissan-48-volt-battery-g1-lithium-ion-3-5-kwh-66-amh-w-option-and-1-bms-lot-of-7/

The plus/minus signs were just there as a visual guesstimate for this purpose.
I'm not sure how to tell, Pos from Neg, in their photo.
Maybe by the red and black tester leads.
UPDATE; I found a single module that shows the terminals in red and black.

As far as the controllers go, (at this time), this is all I have.

Brushless Controller:

rated voltage: dc 48 v
Current limit : 32A
rated power: 1800w
matching motor: dc brushless motorUnder Voltage Protection: 20V
 
OK, I've played around with the connections. I think I've got it right...lets see, shall we?

 
looks good to me. ;)

keep in mind the controllers produce some heat, so placing them in the middle of the batteries will heat the batteries too, as well as reducing or eliminating the ability for the controllers to get airflow, assuming the area they're in is sealed. If it's ventilated, then it's different depending on both the actual airflow and the actual heating that occurs.

they don't make lots of heat unless something is wrong or the system is used in it's least efficient speeds-vs-loading scenarios, so it's not a huge concern, just pointing it out for consideration. :)

the motors...those will probably make enough heat to need to be in the airflow, but that's probably how you are setting them up anyway.
 
amberwolf said:
looks good to me. ;)

keep in mind the controllers produce some heat, so placing them in the middle of the batteries will heat the batteries too, as well as reducing or eliminating the ability for the controllers to get airflow, assuming the area they're in is sealed. If it's ventilated, then it's different depending on both the actual airflow and the actual heating that occurs.

they don't make lots of heat unless something is wrong or the system is used in it's least efficient speeds-vs-loading scenarios, so it's not a huge concern, just pointing it out for consideration. :)

the motors...those will probably make enough heat to need to be in the airflow, but that's probably how you are setting them up anyway.

Thanks amberwolf

Maybe all that has been thrown at me the last few days has finally stuck.

Good point about the controllers. Where I have them showing will be directly behind the seat back, with virtually little air flow, except what gets up there from down below. With the wiring harness that came in the kit, I have about five feet of length to play with.

Also, if I end up using these Leaf modules, I'm presuming, they should be enclosed. At least enough to protect the back of any persons riding in the car.

The motors? Well I have little choice, in the area where they will go. I suppose I could mount them under the frame, just a bit. That would put them directly in the wind stream. I'd want to shroud them somehow, to keep as much of the road debris, out of them as possible. But if do that, it will cut down on the air flow. Catch 22
 
heating because of lack of airflow is usually more of a problem than any road debris, especially at relatively low speeds like you'll have, and since the vents are all at a right angle to the path of any thing kicked up by the tires, and not probably in line with the tires either.

i have used ventilated hubmotors, with much larger holes in the covers than yours have, and not had any debris enter them. honestly not even much dust. which is surprising given the amount of dust around here, including my half-dirt backyard with big dogs runnng around making clouds of it. :lol: (the lack of dust over the years also speaks to the lack of airflow thru the hubs thru those holes, so i don't bother with ventilation anymore; this doesn't mean you should plug the holes in *your* motors though!).

i'd recommend simply building it the most practical way you can, for whatever you need to do.

if you turn out to require ventilation on the motors, you can add forced ventilation via duct and fan later. the fan doesn't have to be high speed and noisy, either, it can be low speed and still potentially move enough air to keep them cool, if it pulls the air thru the motor itself. but you shouldn't have to worry about that at all, with two motors doing the work.

same thing with the controllers...most likely you have nothing to worry about; you can measure the temperatures with any generic remote thermometer (like an indoor/outdoor unit that has a wired or wireless outdoor remote sensor, to let you put the readout where you an see it, and the remote on a motor, or in with the controllers, etc).

i only brought it up becuase these parts *do* make heat, so if they're totally boxed up and you don't know they're heating up, they can age prematurely or even fail. if you know there's a possibility, you can at least check for it. ;)
 
Hillhater said:
Looking good now Ed. :bigthumb:
One minor point,...
Your diagram states “500 watts per module”..
That should read “500 watthr per module”
And the full pack of 7 modules will have 3500 WHr capacity ( or 3.5kWh ) :wink:

WOW ! A 'big' thumbs up.

Thanks hillhater.

The specs are written (copied) from the website. I guess I didn't copy correctly, my bad.
However, I took them as being applied to just one module. So with that being said, are both specs correct then?

Is one of these redundant ?

500 watt hour per module
500 watts hours
 
If you are planning to use a single reduction with the sprockets in the picture, the gearing may be a bit too tall. Knowing things like motor RPM, tooth count and wheel size, we can do the math to see if you are in the right ballpark. If the gearing is too tall, the motors will be overloaded and run hot. If the gearing is too low, you won't get the desired top speed but the motors will be happy.

To push the car at a given speed (say 20mph) it will take a certain amount of power. If the motors can't produce that much power, the speed will be limited to the power they make regardless of gearing.
 
fechter said:
If you are planning to use a single reduction with the sprockets in the picture, the gearing may be a bit too tall. Knowing things like motor RPM, tooth count and wheel size, we can do the math to see if you are in the right ballpark. If the gearing is too tall, the motors will be overloaded and run hot. If the gearing is too low, you won't get the desired top speed but the motors will be happy.

To push the car at a given speed (say 20mph) it will take a certain amount of power. If the motors can't produce that much power, the speed will be limited to the power they make regardless of gearing.

I used the linked calculator to arrive at the sprocket sizes I have/will have.
https://electricscooterparts.com/motorwheelgearratio.html

I entered these parameters:

Motor Speed ...............4500
Motor Sprocket ............9

Jackshaft Input
Sprocket....................24
Jackshaft Output
Sprocket ...................11

Wheel/Axle
Sprocket ...................54
Tire Height.................24

Result I get is .............24.62 MPH
Gear Ratio ................13:09:1

Anything between, 20 mph minimum and 25 mph maximum, will work for this project.
That's the requirement for Calif registration as a NEV.
 
fechter said:
Ok, that sounds close. I didn’t see all the parts for double reduction in the picture.

That's because the supplier TDPRO, left one T8F 11t gear out of the order, and the 24t gears haven't arrived yet from England.
 
I finally got a reply from TechDirect.

And sure enough they asked a question, I didn't know how to answer.

Their Question

I need to know what ah you need for 48V or total kwh you need?

I went looking for formula's to answer this without having to bother you guys more.

Finding how to arrive at amp hours is one thing, calculating for 'need' is another, to me.
So the formula's I found didn't answer, 'my need'. And I'm not sure what/how to determine, MY NEED :confused:
 
Your need boils down to how much range your car needs. More Ahr = more miles of range.

New Leaf batteries are something like 60Ahr. Old ones will be less. Maybe a lot less depending on how much you want to pay.
Estimating how much energy you need to go 20 miles at 20mph will be a guess. My guess would be around 2kWh or roughly 50Ahr on a 7 module pack. If you want to go cheap on the batteries, you will have less range.
 
Just_Ed said:
I need to know what ah you need for 48V or total kwh you need?

well, one set of 7 modules, as noted above, is potentially 3500wh (3.5kwh), depending on actual capacity of each used module.

but...if they're only 60ah when new, at an average 7.2v each, they're only 432wh max for each module, when new. if they're only say, 50% of original capacity, then you only get a little over 200wh each module. which, times 7, is only about 1400wh.

anyway, if you've only got space for one set, then that's how much wh you have, whether you need more or not. ;)

if you have space for two sets, then you have up to 7000wh (7kwh) with the "500wh/module" number. if it's the 200-ish wh / module, then two sets gets you about 2800wh. three sets gets you 4200wh or so.

etc.


now, for how much you need...as i noted way back at the start of the thread, until you know the approximate aerodynamics of the vehicle you can't do much in the way of good estimations of power usage. also as noted, you can get the coast-down aero numbers with just the rolling chassis by having someone else haul or push you up to at least the speed you'd cruise at, then let it coast down to a stop and see how long that takes / how far it goes before stopping. then there are sites about testing aero like this that will help you figure out the cd / cda numbers plus the frontal surface area (which you can estimate as approximately a rectangle of the width x height of the vehicle) you can use to plug into various calculators for power requirements at various speeds.

you can use the power estimates from my somewhat similar-shaped and similar weight sb cruiser trike, but i only have data for up to 20mph, and really only on level ground. for mine, it takes up to 70wh/mile to do 20mph max, which with my ~2kwh battery gives me around 30-ish miles of range.

i would extrapolate that if i could do 25 here, it'd probably take about 100wh/mile for something as unaero as my trike (possibly more).

so, if i needed the same 30 mile range, it'd take 3000wh battery to do it, assuming my untested assumptions are correct about my aero.

if your vehicle's aero is similar to my untested assumptions about my trike's aero ;) and if yours does then take about 100wh/mile at 25mph, then if you need only 30 miles, and those leaf modules do have a minimum of 500wh each, then the seven you've planned for so far would have enough capacity to do what you're after. but if they're more like the 200wh/each, it'll take at least three sets to do it.

if you need any more range than that, or if your wh/mile power usage is sufficiently worse (higher) than that for whatever reason, or the modules don't actually give the wh stated, then you'd need more sets of 7 to parallel with the first sets
 
fechter said:
Your need boils down to how much range your car needs. More Ahr = more miles of range.

New Leaf batteries are something like 60Ahr. Old ones will be less. Maybe a lot less depending on how much you want to pay.
Estimating how much energy you need to go 20 miles at 20mph will be a guess. My guess would be around 2kWh or roughly 50Ahr on a 7 module pack. If you want to go cheap on the batteries, you will have less range.

Well I've received back an answer from TechDirect, to 'one' of my questions.

The difference between the $450 and $600 is the capacity.
Which I already knew the answer to....
Gen 1 = 2011 - 2015 at 60% Capacity
Gen 2 = 2014 - 2018 at 70% Capacity

But they seem to be avoiding any of my other technical questions.
This surprises me a little, after looking into their website, and video of the company.

So I guess, I'm/we're left to work it out on our own.

I'm really between a rock and a hard spot here.

Going lithium, with what appears to be virtually, all the right components to fix the problem,
but are a more complex, and are at a larger cost, (adding in the cost of their charger)
or using SLA batteries, that will be less complex, fills the power need, cost less, but are very heavy and bulky.
 
Oh! Oh! I had a thought !

While mulling over the posts from everyone, and trying to keep it all straight,
my mind thought of this....dangerous I know. :idea:

The motors I bought are rated for 48 volts. They run at 4500 rpm +/- each.

I have been trying to satisfy the battery need to meet that requirement.

Because of the high rpm, I got appropriate sprockets to reduce that rpm.

My thought.

What if I were to run the motor on just 36 volts, or even 24 volts.
The motors would run slower....correct?
Not sure about cause and affect, in doing so.
Gear ratios would surely need to be changed.

But the availability of 12 volt batteries is greater, and making a pack 3 for 36 volts, would require only three batteries.
The resulting speed of the vehicle would also be affected, just how, as of this thought, not sure of yet.
But it seems that it would run slower.

Is this an accurate thought?
 
yes the motor will run slower...it will also have less "oomph", startup torque, etc, though lowering the gearing can change that it also changes your top speed.


a more serious issue is that the controllers have an lvc low voltage cutoff, and a 48v controller usually cuts off somewhere around 40-42v.

a 36v battery fully charged will reach just about 42v, so the controller won't operate because it thinks the battery is dead.

you'll have to check what your particular controller's lvc is, if the info you already have doesn't list it.


the other catch is, because wh (what you need for range) is v x ah, if you lower the voltage you must increase the ah.

let's say you're using 12v 35ah batteries, and need say, 3kwh to do what you want. if you're using 48v, at 70ah (two parallel sets of 48v 35ah) then that's 4 x 12v x 35ah x 2 = 3360wh, using eight batteries.

but if you're using 36v, that's 3 x 12v x 35ah x 2 = 2520wh, using six batteries. if you're using only 35ah batteries, then you have to add a whole set of three to add anything, so now it's 3 x 12v x 35ah x 3 = 3780wh, using nine batteries. the extra wh is good, give syou more range, but it takes one more battery at 36v than it did at 48v to get enough range.


(note that the actual wh you'll get out of lead acid batteries is probably half what you will out of the same thing in lithium, so if you need 3kwh to get the range you're after, you'd need twice as many batteries. meaning, if you did 36v, you'd need 18 of them. whereas at 48v you'd only need 16).


aint math fun? :(
 
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