Cannot get it running - Curtis 1253-8001 and forklift oil pump motor 75V 10kW

[fishbait]

I recently got my hands on a forklift DC motor, papers that came with it say that it is capable of 10kW @ 75V and 165A at 2800rpm.
Weight is 44.7kg.
Tested it a bit with car battery, seems to work alright.
As it is oil pump motor, it only has 2 terminals and always rotates same way.

Now, to get it running properly I ordered a Curtis P1253-8001 from eBay, so most likely a chinese copy of real thing.
This is made exactly for oil pump motors and should be relatively simple.
It is supposed to do 80V and max 600A. Throttle type I ordered was 0-5V.

Now the thing is that I cannot get the controller to do its duty.
I made the connections according manual - battery to B- and B+, motor one pole to M-, other pole to B+.
Also throttle is connected to pins 2-4 and LED light between to pin 6 and 1.
Now there is the KSI pin1 which should power everything up.
When I connect it, the only result I seem to get is blinking code of 3,2 - welded main contactor. And I do not even have a contactor.
Tried connecting a 72V relay coil between pins 1 and 12 but that did not change anything. The relay did not work and error code is the same. Neither did connecting pin5 - interlock or pin11.

Contacted the seller who supposedly tried asking from manufacturer but got nothing back and refunded entire thing.
After that I opened controller from back to check the internals and as far as I can see it looks quite solid.

So maybe it is not completely hopeless but just needs some kind of special connection to get past this welded contactor?
I am all out of ideas and it does not seem to be very popular controller too as there is next to nothing about it in internet.

Also tried to get software access to it through DIY programming cable but also nothing.

Can anyone point me the right direction?

 

[amberwolf]

I made the connections according manual - battery to B- and B+, motor one pole to M-, other pole to B+.

How is the contactor and precharge connected? Per the wiring diagram? Or differently? How is throttle wired? Etc?

I'd recommend tracing out your wiring and drawing it up to be sure it's wired the way you think it is, and is wired as the controller requires.

Also throttle is connected to pins 2-4 and LED light between to pin 6 and 1.
Now there is the KSI pin1 which should power everything up.
When I connect it, the only result I seem to get is blinking code of 3,2 - welded main contactor. And I do not even have a contactor.
Tried connecting a 72V relay coil between pins 1 and 12 but that did not change anything. The relay did not work and error code is the same. Neither did connecting pin5 - interlock or pin11.

It's likely that it requires the precharge to B+, and the contactor wired as specified in the diagram, so that after the precharge lets the controller reach the right voltage, the controller activates the contactor to then connect B+ directly to the controller.

If it isn't wired that way, but instead has B+ connected directly to the controller, it would then see the contactor as welded closed, with permanent B+ connection, and give you that error.

If it is wired correctly but the controller's driver/main (J5) pin doesn't work correctly and turn on the contactor (by grounding that pin) after precharge has occured, then it's probably a failed transistor on that pin (they usually use open-collector transistors, or relay-driver chips with such an output).

 

[fishbait]

Funny thing is, that in manual it does mention precharging but on schematics there is no resistor anywhere.
Manual is here: 1253 manual
The schematics in previous post is not from that manual. It is from some other Curtis DC controller, it just made more sense, so I used that.

I have not connected it all well and properly, as it is just on table for testing at moment.
It is set up so:
1. motor pole1 to B+, pole2 to M-
2. LED diode between J6 and B+
3. 2x120Ohm 10W resistors in parallel between battery positive and B+ of controller - this I connect by hand at moment.
4. 72V relay on J1 and J12
5. J1 to B+ -- this I also connect manually after the precharge is done.

Precharge takes about 5-6 seconds to get to 80V
Once charged the relay should switch but it is not. Tested the relay too, it is functioning.
So I guess the transistor doing that switching is fried and needs replacement.

Now I need to work out a way how to open this thing (other end is filled with some epoxy) and then identify the transistor...

 

[amberwolf]

Funny thing is, that in manual it does mention precharging but on schematics there is no resistor anywhere.
Manual is here: 1253 manual
The schematics in previous post is not from that manual. It is from some other Curtis DC controller, it just made more sense, so I used that.

Well, the wiring diagrams are specific to each device (just like anything else), so if you wire yours differently than the required wiring for your specific controller, it is unlikely to operate correctly, if pin numbers used are different than the same function on the other controller, etc (and can be damaged if certain wiring is incorrect in certain ways).

I haven't compared the diagrams to each other to see if that's a possibility or not.

I have not connected it all well and properly, as it is just on table for testing at moment.
It is set up so:
1. motor pole1 to B+, pole2 to M-
2. LED diode between J6 and B+
3. 2x120Ohm 10W resistors in parallel between battery positive and B+ of controller - this I connect by hand at moment.
4. 72V relay on J1 and J12
5. J1 to B+ -- this I also connect manually after the precharge is done.

Is the B+ you refer to the B+ pin of controller, or the B+ of the battery itself (BP)? It's not listed in your connections, but I'm assuming you have B- connected to battery negative (BN)? (if not, nothing will work)

Where is the throttle connected and in what specific wiring (and what type of throttle is it)? "Smart" controllers won't engage anything if it's not present and working and zeroed, so I expect that's how this one would operate.

If so, I tnink there are connections being made out of order, going by the diagram in your last post (but haven't checked the manual for specifics).

J1-1 should have battery positive (BP) connected all the time if the keyswitch is closed. You don't have a keyswitch, so it should always have BP connected. It shouldn't be being connected to B+.

B+ should be being connected directly to BP (which may be the same point as J1-1 if you have no diode and no fuse). (After precharge is complete, the contactor / relay will do this if the system is working and has all signals present).

I don't see any connection in your list for J1-5, the interlock switch, to BP / KSI (J1-1). You'd have to check the manual, but it is likely the interlock is required to turn the controller on or enable it to operate the motor. I don't know if this can be connected all the time, or if it must be connected after other connections are made, etc.

I don't know what state the Lift Lockout J1-11 pin must be in for it to operate. I don't know what a Curtis 906 is, so I don't know what function it provides or if it is required to operate the controller (or what the lift lockout does).

JellyBeanThePerfectlyNormalSchmoo is demanding my attention, so I'll be back when I can spend a longer time at the diagram and check out the manual for the above signals / order.

Precharge takes about 5-6 seconds to get to 80V
Once charged the relay should switch but it is not. Tested the relay too, it is functioning.

 

[fishbait]

BP to B+ and BM to B- are there, I just do not keep it connected overnight.
When testing I connected the precharge between BP and B+, held until voltage is reached and then connected the BP-B+ directly.
For me this is first time to meddle with this type of controller and I cannot find much in manual too.
So far I have built bunch of e-bicycles and motorcycles using Kelly, Sabvoton ja Votol controllers. Never had real trouble with any. I really expected this one to be simplest of all but it seems to be the other way around.
So all these other connections I just have to approached using my own logic. I did expected to see some trouble but not in this phase.
Throttle is Z6 from Aliexpress - usual 0-5V active, this is what seller supposedly configured the controller to accept.

Would J5 - not being connected also affect the contactor? As I understand, this is the switch that does not allow any operations of forklift to be made before connected. If operator is not sitting on the seat, then it will not move. But it does not power it down and I would expect the contactor to remain connected anyway.
There can of course be some order or sequence, how and when every pin must get connection. On worst case it expects to have some kind of resistor on some pins.
I would expect to get a different error message, if any other pin needs a connection. Not the welded contactor one..
But there is really little data on all components, even motor poles are not marked clearly. There is E on left one, something like number 2 on right one. And also something like A2 on right pole - this may actually indicate something but then again, there is no A2 pin at all on this controller.
Quite a puzzle

 

[eee291]

Have you tried maybe a 5k potentiometer instead of that twist throttle?

 

[fishbait]

Made some progress with controller.
Cracked it open, looked up the contactor mosfet and found it to be dead. IRF3710 - rather big thing - 200W and 100V, max drain 57A -- but still dead.
Replaced it, reassembled the thing and what do you know - now I get healthy single LED blink out of it and even got it talking to computer.
Seems I have to source this 5k potentiometer from somewhere indeed as I cannot get it to react to any of the throttles I have. Supposedly should be happy with any of them but none work. On bench I get no reading out of any and also when all wired up, I get no activity.

 

[eee291]

0-5V means it needs a potentiometer, unless you can change it in the program.
Hall would be 1-4V

 

[fishbait]

It supposedly allows 4 different throttle versions. 0-5kOhm, 5kOhm-0, 0-5V and a 3-wire potentiometer 1-10kOhm.
The 0-5kOhm potentiometer is the simplest.
Bought one today and I am happy to say, that with this one I got it working.
It mostly came down to that one broken mosfet, after that it was all easy.

 

[fechter]

Thanks for reporting the result.

Just curious, what are you going to use the motor for? That's a bit big for a bicycle.

 

[amberwolf]

Seems I have to source this 5k potentiometer from somewhere indeed as I cannot get it to react to any of the throttles I have. Supposedly should be happy with any of them but none work. On bench I get no reading out of any and also when all wired up, I get no activity.

If they are hall-based throttles, and for a bench test you hook up a working 5v source (old usb charger, etc) to their 5v wire, and it's ground to their ground wire, but get no signal out of their signal wire with a volt meter regardless of throttle position/twist/rotation, then the hall sensors inside them are probably defective or not connected to the wires, or the wiring to the supply and signal and ground is not correct. Normally teh voltage range is around 1v minimum, and around 4v maximum.


If they were working normally, then the controller would probably give a "pedal high" or "stuck throttle" error at power on because of the non-zero output of the hall vs the pot it expects if the controller is set to that.

If the controller is set to a hall throttle input, it would operate as expected.

 

[amberwolf]

That's a bit big for a bicycle.

Probably why this thread is in the Large EV General Discussion section.

Would still be interesting to know what's being built with it though.

 

[fishbait]

I have no idea
At some point half a year ago I picked up the motor, for future uses.
Now I have it working but I still do not know what to do with it.
I even have about 2k pcs of 18650 battery cells.
In theory a car-like-thing. Smart ForTwo is always an option but a bit boring. Or maybe a quad or something.
Looking for ideas, the right one has not come yet.

About the throttle - Curtis has 3 wires and the twist-throttles I have also have three wires. So I tried using these by just connecting positive with red wire, ground with black and the 'pot wiper' to green one but it does not seem to like these.
Manual says so:
WIRING: Throttles - various throttles can be used with the 1253 controller. They are categorized as
one of four types in the Program Menu.
Type 0: two-wire 0–5kΩ potentiometer throttles
Type 1: two-wire 5kΩ–0 potentiometer throttles
Type 2: single-ended 0–5V throttles
Type 3: single-ended three-wire 1kΩ–10kΩ pot throttles.

At moment it is the Type 0 and connected between POT wiper and POT low and this works.
It seems to me that the 0-5V that is also usable is a bit different than the e-bikes and similar have. Diagram is in attachment.
Maybe, as I now got it working and also the PC connection is working and showing diagnostics, I will test it a bit more but maybe not. Not at least until I have figured out a use for this kit

 

[amberwolf]

About the throttle - Curtis has 3 wires and the twist-throttles I have also have three wires. So I tried using these by just connecting positive with red wire, ground with black and the 'pot wiper' to green one but it does not seem to like these.

What voltage range do you get doing the test suggested above, from the signal wire of the throttles?

Type 0: two-wire 0–5kΩ potentiometer throttles
Type 1: two-wire 5kΩ–0 potentiometer throttles
Type 2: single-ended 0–5V throttles
Type 3: single-ended three-wire 1kΩ–10kΩ pot throttles.

None of those are hall type throttles, which are ~1v-4v throttles. So if you use a hall-type then if the controller expects 0v at throttle off, you'll always either have a pedal high / throttle stuck error, or the system will runaway at power on if it has no safety against that.

If the controller has an adjustment for the high and low throttle voltage when set to type2, you can adjust it to your specific throttle. If it does not and requires 0v when throttle off, and 5v for throttle max, it would require a special throttle that has extra eletronics in it to translate the hall sensor output to the full voltage range. (or a box between them that does this job).

 

[heimbilt]

Try B- for hall ground instead of pin J1-4, the internal 511Ω may be the issue.

I have this Curtis in an old dirtbike and use a Magura twist 5kΩ, safety is worth a few extra bucks.

Magura 5k Ohm Twist Throttle with Matching Grip

Magura 5k Ohm Twist Throttle with Matching Grip

cart.electricscooterparts.com

I couldn’t get rid of a low throttle step function regardless of throttle type or settings. Hopefully you’ll have better luck.