Clyte 408 or 5304

[trek7000]

After reading this entire board, (great info BTW) .. i've decided against the 406 motor I initially intended on buying. A lot of my riding will be in town and have a lot of stop and go .. I want something with a bit more torque to pick up and go from a stop (however I do still enjoy some speed) ... my question to the experts, which setup do you suggest?

408 OR 5304 in 26" wheel ???
48v 12ah LifePo4 batteries
36V 35A Start Immediate Controller (will this suffice?)

I weigh 215lbs, hoping for a 20km range and some decent speeds 35-40km/h unassisted. Would love to know anyone else's running stats on either of those setups.. speed, range etc.

Looking forward to ordering the goods!!!

 

[kyakdiver]

I would go with the 36-72V controller so you can have some head room and also have flexibility down the road. I would go with the 408 myself if I went clite because I prefer the lighter weight. You should be able to run around 24 mph (km?) or so with that setup.

If torq and speed are your thing though... the big dog seems to be good also... that motor weighs more than most bikes.

kyakdiver

 

[BiGH]

I've owned both of these -

they are very different motors.

the 408 will be more efficient however if you run 72v 35a throuhg it they can die (mine did after 2600klms)

You're only looking to run 48v through it, so thats not a problem. The 5 series is heavier, but i feel that thye're a lot more quality than the 4 series.

they do however have differnet speed profiles - this is something i got caught on.

If you look at the ebikes.ca site - their online store section has the max speed / volt that the motor will try and do. the 5304 (504) is .95 kph/v but the 408 is .73 kph/v. The higher kph/v of the 504 will mean that it will want to go faster per volt.

so at 48v the 504 would want to do a maximum of 45.8kph the 408 35kph - very differnet speeds. HOWEVER if you wanted to do 30kph on your bike the 408 would use less power to maintain that speed than the 5 series. (efficiency is a function of the percentage of max speed). This is something i have trouble with - i find after changing to a 504 i use more power to go the same distance at a slightly lower speed.

i'd probably reccomend comparing the 505 and the 408 - they would be more comparable.

One upside to the 504 vs 505 though, is that it rolls without power faster than the 505, meaning power isn't required down steep hills. - it all comes down to what kind of riding you'll be doing. i'd probably say the best bet is a 505 with a 35a 72v controller. - the 505 will last forever at the power levels your stating, the 408 probably would too. jump up to 72v and i don't think you 408 would last very long (unless you live in a cold area).

hope this helps!

 

[Drunkskunk]

5304 and a 408 aren't the motors to be comparing unless you're comparing the 408 at 72V to the 5304 at 48.

But a very general 40X to 530X comparison, a 530X is more powerfull by 1/3, will have 1/3 more torque. But it will also need more than 1/3 more amps to make that torque, and be less efficent all through the powerband. Since having more power and better acceleration means you'll want to use that power more (Redneck's law) you'll need a battery twice the size of the 40X's for the same range. bigger battery means more weight, and the motor will ad weight too. The 530X is 25 pounds compared to a 40X at 16.

Breaking it down, the 530x is more fun, but the 40x makes a better comuter.

 

[SniperGaulois]

I have a 40620a, it's good for speed, 42kph, it accelerates pretty fast on 48v, at least as fast as the cars in the traffic lights, and can handle most hills with low efficiency, I would exchange for a 408 though for the versatility and efficiency, I would choose the 408 @ 20a 48v unless you want something more powerful than a moped...the point in the 53xx is only if you need more power than a 408 at 65-70v @27-28a, but I am very happy with a 406 except for Cross country and hills, where it is very performant but to do with lots of improvements judging by low-power at slow speeds. the problem with the big motor is it's probably a lot heavier and bigger and less stealth. I would start with a 408...

 

[steveo]

5304 hands down.. i've never owned one but i wouldn't want too..

if you want efficiency you could put the 5304 in 20" rim... run a higher voltage setup .. say 72v should est bring you to the 60km/h+ range more torque to go up any hill even with a 35amp controller..

besides the weight, the 5304 is best imo..

i'll leave there rest up to you..

-steveo

 

[lazarus2405]

5304 hands down.. i've never owned one but i wouldn't want too..

Huh? A bit of a contradictory statement...

My question is, do you want the bike to feel like a bicycle with a motor, or a moped/scooter/small motorcycle in a bicycle frame? Which kind of acceleration are you looking for?

I'd generally suggest the 5304. If you want to tool around town, go with the 400. If you will be in traffic, go with the x5.

In any case, get a 72V40A controller. You'll appreciate the headroom, especially if you decide to upgrade later.

 

[SniperGaulois]

I don't agree about getting a five series if you are going to be in traffic, a 408 will accelerate as fast as a guy on a bike sprinting, and even with only 36v, no 1 would be able to keep up with you for much more than 1 minutes at sprint speeds.

 

[lazarus2405]

Sorry, I should have been more specific. "Traffic" is a relative term. I meant stop-and-go above 30mph.

 

[ngocthach1130]

I'd go with a 408. It's a great motor with enough oomph. Some of you guys are spoiled by having 5 series motor. It's too wasteful. For most application, we won't need those heavy motor. At the same time. the 5 series motor alone cost as much as a 408 motor+controller. With a 408 motor you won't have to over engineer your torque arm and still worry about the motor ripping the bike apart and you eating the tarmac.

 

[lazarus2405]

With a 408 motor you won't have to over engineer your torque arm and still worry about the motor ripping the bike apart and you eating the tarmac.

Ouch... Ouch. It hurts because it's true.

The problem is that everyone has a different definition of "enough". Our job is to ask what you really want the motor for, and then try to tell you which motor will do that, with really only the vague understanding of your needs, colored by our own personal preferences.

 

[ngocthach1130]

yeah it's unfortunate, but some people do not really know how powerful those 5 series motors are until it rip up their dropout. I guess you can relate to that Lazarus. How'd you repair your dropout btw? did it break the drop out completely or just spread it a little? At the moment i'm also very tempted to a 5 series motor but i don't have the time dedication to draw up a proper torque arm. My 408 right now also have a torque arm but it's pretty puny. Sooner or later i will have to make a proper torque arm when i implement a plug brake system like fechter and you lazarus. My brake pads are wearing out like crazy.

 

[Link]

did it break the drop out completely or just spread it a little?

I think it snapped it. Aluminum isn't as elastic or malleable as steel.

 

[lazarus2405]

Both wrong. Ground it round.

It rides fine with its stock rear wheel and human power, but I really need torque arms before I can put power to it.

I'll post more shortly, in a new thread.

 

[Parker]

I have a definite want for a 50X motor but there's no way I can justify it. It
seems with those motors with the power and weight involved you are making
a scooter more than an electric bike, where having pedals and gears on it becomes
somewhat pointless.

 

[lazarus2405]

I have a definite want for a 50X motor but there's no way I can justify it. It
seems with those motors with the power and weight involved you are making
a scooter more than an electric bike, where having pedals and gears on it becomes
somewhat pointless.

Well, that depends. I've definitely found the x5 to be pedalable, though a bit annoying to do so. To meaningfully pedal it, there's a good chance you'll have to get a larger front chainring, and the extra weight is awful up hills, but it isn't *that* bad.

To an extent, you truly are making a scooter or moped, but in a bike form factor. This allows you to take advantage of facilities for bicycles (when used with proper restraint and respect), bike lanes, bike paths, bike racks, trains and buses, among other places where a bicycle can go but a scooter cannot. You keep a pedal drivetrain, for legality, redundancy (in case you get stuck), and for exercise when at more stately speed.

And then you have the advantage of that power. It's of course fun, but it allows you to go places bikes cannot, and to safely navigate some traffic circumstances that a lesser motor can't

When it comes down to it, though, it's an individual case-by-case choice. It will make sense for some, and not for others. As an x5 owner, I recognize that. It made sense for me, and I don't regret the purchase one bit. Because it made sense for me, and because I enjoy my x5 so much, I want to recommend it to others. However, because of my bias (and having not experienced a 400), it is sometimes difficult to discern whether one motor or the other would better serve someone else.

Back to the OP, though, in my opinion there is no need to get an x5 if needs or setup wouldn't push a 400 past its limits. Especially if you're running 48v. Frankly, you'd be better off running a 400 at 72v than an x5 at 48v. You can use the money saved to get two 36v batteries instead of one 48v.

No one's mentioned it yet, but a 408 at 72v in a 20" rim would be a very good choice. It'll have much better acceleration than a 5304 at 48v in a 26" rim (yes, it's an unfair comparison), more power than an x5 at 48v, and top out at about 30mph.

 

[Drunkskunk]

SOmething else to point out here. if you take a basic 530X at 36V, its impresive enough for power, but if you sue the money you save by buying a 4012, and then hop it up with a better battery, run it at 72 volts, and you have a lighter, more efficent, but MORE powerfull motor.

 

[lazarus2405]

Indeed. I really believe that an x5 is not worth it unless you're running 72v or more (well, 66 for you a123 folks). Below that, you not only are not using the motor to its full potential (not even close, that is!), but you could easily get as much power out of a lighter, cheaper 400.

Remember, Ohm's law. The more voltage, the more current the motor can draw. Max power increases by the square of the voltage. Assuming your controller and batteries aren't limiting you, the difference in power between 84v and 72v is huge compared to that between 48v and 36v.

If you can afford it, and rationalize it, an x5 at 72+ volts is amazing. However, if you must compromise, a 400 at 72v is better than an x5 at 48v.

 

[Link]

Remember, Ohm's law. The more voltage, the more current the motor can draw. Max power increases by the square of the voltage. Assuming your controller and batteries aren't limiting you, the difference in power between 84v and 72v is huge compared to that between 48v and 36v.

Except motors are an inductive load. The current limiting part of Ohm's law only comes into play when the motor is or close to not moving (i.e. stalled). In which case you are getting little or no power at all.

 

[mace1934]

I'm thinking of using a 5305 in the front wheel (20") of a Sun EZ-3 USX recumbent trike.

I have a 408/40A_36-72V/66 volt system on my old Rockhopper mtb, which works beautifully - except on hot days riding the final steep hill to home, when the motor can get pretty hot - 160 degrees F once.

The trike is heavier, and I plan to use a trailer to have better shopping capability, so I'll need more power (not for speed - I don't go fast) and less tendency to overheating than the 408 could provide. I'd use the same controller and battery pack (with more capacity) as on the Rockhopper. It may be the closest thing to an electric car I'll ever get.

I'll post results if it works out.

Larry

 

[Rassy]

Mace1934 wrote:

I'm thinking of using a 5305 in the front wheel (20") of a Sun EZ-3 USX recumbent trike.

Hi Mace. I have the same trike, and at one time had a WE BD36 on the front wheel, as well as two on the trailer. I removed the front motor, partially because I was concerned about the light weight of the fork and dropouts. Currently I have just the two motors on the trailer, running at 48V on SLA 24AH. The performance is about the same as with 3 motors running at 36V on SLA 36AH.

One nice thing about having the motors and everything on the trailer, the trike is free to use in its original form. Of course, I seldom do that, and when I do I really miss the power assist.

Edit: Also, if you put a fairly powerful motor on the light weight front, it will have a tendancy to lose traction during heavy acceleration or hill climbing.

 

[mace1934]

Thanks for that Rassy! Maybe it's not such a good idea to put a 5305 on the front wheel of an EZ-3 USX.

Larry

 

[kbarrett]

Thanks for that Rassy! Maybe it's not such a good idea to put a 5305 on the front wheel of an EZ-3 USX.

Larry

Put it in a one wheel trailer. Add a ton of Lithium Iron Phosphate. Use it to push ANY bike you own into near earth orbit.