debate on universal access to health care

Tom Tom said:
I just can not believe, that anyone believes, that the gov't should provide health care for all.
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Why shouldn't I believe that? Have you ever been to Canada? Works great up there.

Tom Tom said:
How is that possible? Does the gov't do anything well?
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Compared to what? Every government of every developed western nation besides the US somehow provides health care to its citizens for less than half the cost per capita of the US' health care "system," while keeping its citizens at least as healthy as US citizens are. Scroll back a few pages for the link if you want to learn more about that, I've posted it several times already.

And for the money spent, the government actually does a pretty decent job at many things. People complain about those things a lot, but when it comes to tax time, they certainly don't want to pay any more taxes. When you look at how much actual money is spent on government services, they generally do a good job considering their limited resources. Have you looked at a regional education budget lately? Private enterprise can be far less economically efficient than government services in some areas. Do you want to compare the cost efficiency of Blackwater vs. the Army? LOL

There are a few things where the government is the most efficient delivery system. There are many more things that are more efficient when privately organized. Health care is one of those few things where it has been proven to be more efficient when delivered by the government.
 
I ask that all the incredulous fellows doing insurance lobby work, pro bono, take a couple seconds and give this article a gander:

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-rescind17-2009jun17,0,3508020,full.story
 
as long as somebody else is in charge of paying the bill, that somebody else is going to determine if you get care or not.
The VA denied payment for my dad, for a condition he got during WWII, for decades(about 50 years), then in the 90's when there was a budget surplus, the VA approved it.

So, the gov did come thru, 50+ years later!
 
Matt Gruber said:
as long as somebody else is in charge of paying the bill, that somebody else is going to determine if you get care or not.
The VA denied payment for my dad, for a condition he got during WWII, for decades(about 50 years), then in the 90's when there was a budget surplus, the VA approved it.

So, the gov did come thru, 50+ years later!
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My Mom and Dad probably do have care better than what your Dad gets at the VA. Unfortunately they have to choose between no care at all (FAR worse than the VA), and the excellent care that they're currently paying more than $1000/month for. Luckily for them, and for the insurance company, they are not using it since he and Mom are in excellent health, and they can afford to pay $1000+ per month on health insurance. They do not quite yet qualify for Medicare.

My mother-in-law is about the same age, also doesn't qualify for Medicare yet. She can't afford health insurance, is diabetic, and has high cholesterol -- "pre-existing conditions." My wife and I worry about her often.
 
Cackalacka said:
Does the gov't do anything well?
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For 44 cents, the government will take a piece of paper and deliver it anywhere in the lower 48 plus Alaska & Hawaii.

Anyone who has complained about the service in the post-office has never been to UPS.

It is telling that folks in Canada, the UK, Australia, France, Sweden, Japan, Spain, Italy... etc. etc. etc. aren't clamoring to de-nationalize their health care industry. Sure, there are some astro-turfed entities that would, but the citizenry isn't.

It's almost as if they are getting more for their money taking the insurance industry out of the equation.
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Man you need to get the inside info on the PO.

My X works there and all she has are horror stories on how the place is run. She has been there for 35 years and has worked at different PO's and divisions in Virginia, Washington and California. The biggest problem she has is she is a very hard worker and it drives her crazy that so many people that work there take advantage of the fact that you can get away without working. It's gotten so bad that some employees purposely do not do their job in a timely mater so they can get OT to do it. They are getting big bucks and benefits to do pretty much what I did as a paperboy, on top of that they work the system to their advantage so they can get even more money out of it!

$75.00 an hour to sort mail, give me a break!

Deron.
 
julesa said:
Matt Gruber said:
as long as somebody else is in charge of paying the bill, that somebody else is going to determine if you get care or not.
The VA denied payment for my dad, for a condition he got during WWII, for decades(about 50 years), then in the 90's when there was a budget surplus, the VA approved it.

So, the gov did come thru, 50+ years later!
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My Mom and Dad probably do have care better than what your Dad gets at the VA. Unfortunately they have to choose between no care at all (FAR worse than the VA), and the excellent care that they're currently paying more than $1000/month for. Luckily for them, and for the insurance company, they are not using it since he and Mom are in excellent health, and they can afford to pay $1000+ per month on health insurance. They do not quite yet qualify for Medicare.

My mother-in-law is about the same age, also doesn't qualify for Medicare yet. She can't afford health insurance, is diabetic, and has high cholesterol -- "pre-existing conditions." My wife and I worry about her often.
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Here is another retirement story.

My Mom and Dad get generous retirement checks, have saved tons of money in investments. Yet when it comes to Health care, they have medicare pay for it. My Dad recently spent three weeks in the hospital, the total out of pocket expenses to them was just over a thousand dollars. He also had a knee operation nearly a year ago payed for by the system that is now in place. Why would people under that system want to expand it to others, I wonder why the seniors are not "tar and feathering" their representatives, they always do when it comes to talk about touching their SS.

Deron.
 
There is a facet to the health-care crisis brewing that I don't hear many talk about (or "talk aboat" if you reading from Canada, eh). If its someones dream to become a carpenter, plumber, truck-driver, etc,...just about anyone can achieve that. But to become a doctor, very few are smart enough to pass the MCAT's. Even if you had bad grades in high-school because of a family situation, but you're a smart 18-year-old on your own now and have student loans available...Very few are capable.

2 years of general ed, 2 years of pre-med to get the BA, 4 years of med school. 8 years of student loans for tuition. Why won't doctors work for free, live in a 0ne-bedroom apartment, and ride a bike to the hospital, you know...because they CARE about the patients who can't afford healthcare.

The ads for hospitals make it appear they CARE about people, but oddly, the ones who don't make a profit go out of business...

Hospitals will continue to pursue profits (the bastards) but US pre-med students are looking at skyrocketing liability insurance and looming federal controls (no matter what form they take) and many of them are opting into pre-law and pre-chemical-engineering.

There is a shortage right now, and no matter what form of "increased involvement" the fed takes, more people will be more-covered than they were before. The aging population will have an increase presence of colon/prostate/breast cancers, and they are best treated more cheaply and more easily when they are detected early. Early detection cancer screenings will be mandated (thats a good thing) but where will the technicians come from?

Right now, doctors in China and India are getting paid to evaluate x-rays and lab tests via satellite link and the web. Be careful what you ask for, when you get what they said you asked for, the law of unintended consequences can take very odd forms.

When I had my wisdom teeth out in the Navy, it was government-provided for free. It was a military dental student, and I was not given a choice. Of course, even the experienced military dentists had to have a first patient at some point. What kind of para-medical technician students will enter para-med classes when med pay is capped? There are going to be a lot of them soon.
 
anyone can do surgery.
all u need is clean rags, salt, and sharp tools.
......
then again, maybe not
 
Moped,

Again, you tell me who will ship this letter across the country in 1-4 days time for 44 cents; I'll cede all my arguments when you do.

They could be staffed with inbred tweens smoking crack every other minute for all I care, they still get stuff from point A to point B better as good as FedEx or DHL (if a day slower), for about 1/10th the price. If someone can do a menial job to perfection, and through tenure and overtime make $75/hr, well good on 'em. My stamp still only costs $0.44.

I've never had a parcel lost or damaged by the the federal post office. UPS, not so much.
 
The bottom line is that this is so the wrong time to be raising taxes. Big O says it will be free through savings elsewhere...Yeah right, prove it by getting the savings first, and then push through your healthcare reform. They directly caused the deepness of this recession by convincing everyone how bad things were before they were even bad, which caused a change in consumer spending habits. Arguably those habits needed changing, but to force it by instilling fear on top of a year of sky high energy prices, caused the housing bubble to burst instead of a more orderly correction. All I have to say is the majority got exactly what they voted for without understanding what it was ahead of time. Being an inspirational speaker is great, especially when it's generally lacking in government, but when changes are needed they should be the right changes, and voting for change, any change, is very likely to just end up with a big warm turd as a result. Maybe the energy revolution will save the day to create the economic stimulus now necessary, but that can only happen if the US is a leader in that regard, which is highly questionable. Plus with the recession depressing energy demand, that revolution looks like it will be delayed by an extra year or more anyway.

John
 
Claims that the free market has failed us should be dismissed out of hand as meaningless. There have only ever been partial degrees of freedom from government interference in the market. Could it not be that its the increasing levels of government interference that have brought us to this situation? And if so, Obama et al are seeking to poison us with even further government interference?

Let us not forget that there will always be those who seek to impose their will upon others. Its why the bill of rights is such an important document in that it defines the legitimate function of government, namely the protection of individual rights from others and government. We give over the use of force in protecting our rights to the government. Any endevor by the government is with the permission to enforce those actions by that use of force. Try not paying your taxes for those other people's healthcare and you will be met by the sherriff's gun barrel.

So you want the backing of government guns to force me to pay for others welfare while simultaneously depriving me of my right to chose how I dispense charity (you took my money). Doesn't sound very civil or American to me.
 
So you want the backing of government guns to force me to pay for others welfare while simultaneously depriving me of my right to chose how I dispense charity (you took my money). Doesn't sound very civil or American to me.
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Right. Government interference can only lead to disaster, because efficient exchange of goods and services only happens when government gets out of the way of private organizations like Enron and AIG. Look at Canada. Their government interferes all over the place, and they're practically living in caves. Times are getting tough here in the US too, better stock up on the ammo and canned food while you still can. Next they're going to be taking our money and using it to educate kids, and build roads and bridges and stuff. DEY TOOK R FREEDOMS!!!!1!!!1!
 
Claims that the free market has failed us should be dismissed out of hand as meaningless.
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A very interesting assertion; I suppose one could construe that the powers that be in this, as well as the previous administration, have confused the financial service industry with the economy itself, and have subsequently constained the vaunted 'free market.' That's being very charitable with your initial statement.

However, my 401(k) disagrees with your assertion, as it was dismissed by an out of conrol 'invisible hand.'
 
So i've read the AP reports that the proposed bill would require insurance co's to accept those with pre-existing conditions. I've seen nothing about who pays for them. As i understand it, they often refuse to accept those with any problem. So this is an improvement. Plus they can't charge more, or cancel. Big improvement if it gets passed. So, Out of luck with pre-existing? If they had to pay, rates would have to shoot up.
 
Matt Gruber said:
...the proposed bill would require insurance co's to accept those with pre-existing conditions...
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That's the surest way to bankrupt the industry. Maybe that's the plan, so the gov't can take over by default. Who in there right mind would pay for insurance if you could wait till you are sick to get insurance?

John
 
insurance does not cover pre-existing;
but they have to accept those not 100%.
So if u wait until u r sick, they will have to accept u for everything unrelated.
Like, u have cancer,
sign up,
break a leg later
they treat leg, not cancer
 
gogo said:
Claims that the free market has failed us should be dismissed out of hand as meaningless. There have only ever been partial degrees of freedom from government interference in the market. Could it not be that its the increasing levels of government interference that have brought us to this situation? And if so, Obama et al are seeking to poison us with even further government interference?

Let us not forget that there will always be those who seek to impose their will upon others. Its why the bill of rights is such an important document in that it defines the legitimate function of government, namely the protection of individual rights from others and government. We give over the use of force in protecting our rights to the government. Any endevor by the government is with the permission to enforce those actions by that use of force. Try not paying your taxes for those other people's healthcare and you will be met by the sherriff's gun barrel.

So you want the backing of government guns to force me to pay for others welfare while simultaneously depriving me of my right to chose how I dispense charity (you took my money). Doesn't sound very civil or American to me.
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This is so right.

People that dismiss this only need to look inward for the truth. People do not run their lives, businesses or whatever on a government model. They run them like a free market capitalist. They go to work and produce something so as to offer it in exchange for other goods and services. This is not a government model. Only when the government steps into your life does it now become a system where they take from you the producer and give it away for free. This has the effect of reducing the number of productive people and increasing the number of unproductive people.

Ask yourself, why do you go out and bust your butt every day, to get ahead or to support some freeloaders. And people are advocating that we support 47 million of them that do not have health care.

Deron.
 
I'm a die hard conservative when it comes things unrelated to personal liberties, HOWEVER,

For profit hospitals, insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies, and lawyers all get thrown into a common pot called banes on society. Get rid of them and you'll do some good.

Hospitals- How can anyone profit from the sickness of others?

Insurance- While the concept of spreading risk across the population is good in concept, that's not what actually occurs. It's in the InsCo's best interest to take as much as they can from you each month, and turn around and deny, deny, deny to pay out as little as possible when the unfortunate time arises and you need them the most. All is done so they can pay out as much to their shareholders as possible. It may work, and work efficiently, in the black and white cases of auto insurance, but with all the grey areas related to healthcare they prevent the better good from being served.

Pharmaceutical companies- Any company that profits from the widespread use of highly addictive drugs that are bad for people is no better than a drug dealer standing on the corner. Just look at the millions of addicts they have legally created with codeine based pain killers. It's just a reconfigured form of heroin taken in pill form, and they top off the concoction by mixing it with acetaminophen that kills your liver because that's the combo that has the best kick. Weed is far better in all respects, but it's so cheap and easy to grow yourself that it's illegal, leaving poisons to be legally prescribed by doctors. And that's just one example.

Lawyers - What actual good do they serve to society as a whole?...NONE. There are better ways to protect people from injustice.

I'm sorry but this half-ass approach to healthcare reform that leaves everyone still in business plus an added layer of government bureaucracy can never work. You either change to socialized medicine or you don't. There's no in between, and there are valid arguments for both sides, but if you go the socialized route you have to figure out how to reward the best and brightest whether it's the doctors or research scientists, and that's the toughest hurdle to cross related to socialized medicine.

John
 
Hospitals: Should profit so that the profits can be put back into research. This is how medical advances occurred before government meddling.

Insurance: Used to be great, before Ted Kennedy forced the HMO plans.

Drug companies: I agree with some of the beef here. high regulation to protect profits is overdone, but again, it is what made the large scale advances in pharmaceuticals possible. Perhaps if doctors were not so enthusiastic about prescribing them.

Lawyers: You go! man!!!

Did you hear about the doctor who tried the market approach to medicine? He wanted a flat monthly fee (I think $75) for his services, no matter what they were. Unlimited office visits, X-rays, Injections...etc. The gov. intervened and would not allow it. They said he was providing insurance.
 
TPA said:
Hospitals: Should profit so that the profits can be put back into research. This is how medical advances occurred before government meddling.
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Fine, if you put 100% back into research, but that isn't what happens. For profit means I got charged $12 for a Tylenol and $20k for 3 days spent on a wife with 0% chance of coming out alive. As I said, rewarding the best and brightest is the sticking point, but I'm not sure the current system does that best either.

Insurance: Used to be great, before Ted Kennedy forced the HMO plans.
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Insurance was not for the greater good long before HMOs.

Drug companies: I agree with some of the beef here. high regulation to protect profits is overdone, but again, it is what made the large scale advances in pharmaceuticals possible. Perhaps if doctors were not so enthusiastic about prescribing them.
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Sorry but bullshit. Those who live the longest don't take any of those pills, and never will. Life extension will never be a result of drug companies. If someone wants to live longer they should eat right and be active both physically and mentally. Anything else is just an illusion created by the drug companies.

John
 
Grocery stores: How can anyone profit off the hunger of others?

Housing: How can anyone profit off the homelessness of others?

Nothing will survive without profit. Could you survive if you gave all your services away. Would you open a hospital if you could not make a profit. Free market competition is the only way to keep cost in line. That is the reason your computer does not cost you $50,000.00.

Deron.
 
pay is your profit.
save in good times to get thru bad times.
there are a few hospitals closing due to the recession and a lack of profits to get thru this recession.
2 hospitals in Mi are in default on their bonds-they are broke. But, if u will work there for free, no profit, they can stay open and pay their debt.
Anyone a Dr. and want to work for free?
 
insurance does not cover pre-existing;
but they have to accept those not 100%.
So if u wait until u r sick, they will have to accept u for everything unrelated.
Like, u have cancer,
sign up,
break a leg later
they treat leg, not cancer
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Again, not necessarily true:

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jun/17/business/fi-rescind17

Opporitive word: "rescind"
 
Many things are not necessarily true.
That's why i don't trust ins. co's and pay a low price and save the rest IN MY OWN ACCOUNT. BX gets $122/mo. up from 106, up from 96.
Even my car ins, i don't believe it until i see a claim paid.
Anyone can just form a family pool, and then watch the bickering and see if the family OK's your treatment.
It's foolish to rely on "the kindness of strangers" as Warren Buffet said.
 
Of course it's Republican! You don't expect the Democrats would tell you this would you?

This chart, presented by GOP leaders, identifies at least 31 new federal programs, agencies, and mandates that accompany the unprecedented government takeover of health care in America.

House Republican leader, John Boehner (R-OH) said, “This isn’t reform; it’s a recipe for disaster that will lead to higher health care costs, lower quality, rationed care, and bureaucrats making medical decisions instead of doctors and patients...”

“This new maze of government bureacracy will be funded by a new small business tax that will cost more American jobs.”

If you like Big Government, you will love Democrat health reform.

One last thing. DON’T GET SICK!
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