Diy Battery Upgrade to my DS 2011 to add 100km range !!

[Doctorbass]

8 kWh 2011 Zero BATTERY project


STOCK ACTUAL SETUP
My stock DS 2011 is giving me 60 real Ah measured capacity before it cut.

That is with 50% highway and 50% city wich correspond to my average use.

This is giving me 60km range most of the time.

I can easy conclude that each Ah is about 1km range

But since the last Ah of a discharged battery represent less energy than the first Ah, it is better to calculate Wh ( What hour) energy wich is not dependent to voltage.

ex: from 0 to 1Ah consumed at 58V this is 58Wh energy
But with the battery at 46V ( near empty) the ah from 59Ah to 60Ah mean only 46Wh wich is 20% less energy for this last Ah

So let's now talk with What hours

My stock battery measured full energy is 3000Wh so with 60Ah the average voltage is 3000/60 = 50Volts.


Adding 5kWh of A123 LiFePO4 cells!!!

The phase 1 of my project consist of using 32 of my A123 LiFePO4 pouches for the first 2kWh addition. I am using the great Agniusm 16s kits

I choosed these A123 LiFePO4 battery because:

- They have excellent reputation and specs,
- Can charge in 15 minutes
- Have 2000cycle of life compare to LiMn
- I already have alot of hardware for 16s ( 48V(52V) standard)
- 16s LiFePO4 match the stock 14s LiMn voltage range
- They have awsome power ( 20 to 30C continuous)
- They are more compact than the LiMn Molicells


That first phase of the project consist of adding 40Ah of LiFePO4 wich will give about 40 more km range wich will extend to 100km ( 50% city 50% highway) wich is a great beginning.

THe big problem is finding the right room to locate them.

After many reflection i decided that the stock 900W quick charger is too big and have to be replaced by something more compact that i can cary or not ( not permanent on the zero)

i'll buy a Meanwell RSP-2000-48 power suply wich cost the same as a quick charger and is 4 time more compact but have the same efficiency and cahrge 2.2time faster
295*127*41mm (L*W*H) and weight 2kg !!

http://www.trcelectronics.com/Meanwell/rsp-2000-48.shtml

They can be placed on both sides of the actual zero battery, they enter perfectly in the frame and are really thin !


If i add alot of range in battery , the only time i'll need for recharge will be on a planned trip and i'll be able to decide to cary it with me in a bag.

Believe it or not, the room that the stock delta Q quick charger have is exactly the room i need to install the first 2kWh of A123 cells ;D

Next phase will be to relocate and replace the controller. I'll install a Kelly 72V 600A model with regen. This controller is like half the size of the alltrax 48V 500A !

The Kely will be located under the seat neat the motor fan blower. It will still have short lengh cable and will be more accessible.

This will add room for another 2kWh, but this time the cellsl will be the 26650 cells ( same as in teh dewalt 36V cordless drill) I have about 320 of these cells that i carefully measured one by one after they was recovered from " deffective" toolpack. They will be in 16s20p config. The average Ah of these cells is 2.175Ah so this will give me 43Ah but i'll only use 40 to keep them balanced.

I plan on adding a common BMS with paralleled 16s balalnce connector that will connect to each 2kWh packs. ( as well i will ensure that all these packs will be connected in parallel only when their voltage is the same!

Now the great question you all wonder: Man... ? How will you connect them to teh actual electrical system ? The stock zero bms is 14s and your battery are 16s ?
Well, i'll only connect the main power connector in parallel, The added battery will have their own central BMS system of 16s.

I still wonder if i add a diode to both battery ( best would be a high current ideal diode made of mosfet) because i dont want to have one of the LIMn or LiFePO4 packs to overcharge a low cell due to connection loop because of the parallelling between both pack with their independent BMS.

Today i finished the first 2kWh made of pouch. I will add the connections and sealed enclosure later.

Another fact that is interesting is that i might get a bit more range due to the " peukert effect" wich mean a pack that is drained at lower current is giving a bit more Ah... so the stock zero battery i have that is giving 3000Wh might give let say 3250Wh because it will have less load due to the current share that will make each pack to have less current draw then when it's a single pack.

will see...

Here is my first 2kWh of cells 8) ( one assembled and another not yet assembled)


Battery Fabrication ( YT video)
[youtube]bvr-EoLs5pE[/youtube]

 

[ian.mich]

Didn't go for 8kwh RC LiPo? :lol:

 

[Doctorbass]

Didn't go for 8kwh RC LiPo? :lol:

Too much Dangerous!.

LiFePO4 are the best trade off for a project like that :wink:

 

[ian.mich]

Didn't go for 8kwh RC LiPo? :lol:

Too much Dangerous!.

LiFePO4 are the best trade off for a project like that :wink:

Absolutely lol, but i think i'd do it myself maybe start with 4kwh in 50 4S hardcases and see how it goes/blows

 

[Arlo1]

Doc I can't wait to see a finished project. I love your packs. How much is it to by the pouches??

 

[Doctorbass]

Doc I can't wait to see a finished project. I love your packs. How much is it to by the pouches??

Pouched came to about 24.50$ shipped per pouch (absolute total price)

The total cost of what you see in the picture is (32 x 24.50$A123 pouch ) + (2x 125$ agniusm kit) = 1034$ total for about 2kWh of 16s2p of 38Ah measured at 200A cont discharg to 2.0V.

All 32 cells i measured have IR of about 0.72 miliohm and a capacity of min 18.4Ah and max 19.3Ah at 5C ( not measured a 1C yet.. or i dont remember...)

Doc

 

[bowlofsalad]

Where did you buy your A123 pouches from?

Have you ever considered making 8s (then wiring two in series to make 16s) packs and using an RC style balance charger such as the powerlab 8 for charging? This is instead of your bulk chargers.

That is a lot of variance in AH, wouldn't that be an issue?

How deeply do you plan on discharging your A123 cells routinely?

 

[Doctorbass]

Where did you buy your A123 pouches from?

Have you ever considered making 8s (then wiring two in series to make 16s) packs and using an RC style balance charger such as the powerlab 8 for charging? This is instead of your bulk chargers.

That is a lot of variance in AH, wouldn't that be an issue?

How deeply do you plan on discharging your A123 cells routinely?

These was bought from Victpower.

These will have their own BMS and will cahrge on the same system as the zero already have so no complicate things with RC chargers and serie or parallel disconnect etc... I will be alot simpler.


No the variance between my pouches is not so high.. dont forget that i have matched them together so they are in pair ( 2p) so a low is matched with a high etc.. the average Ah is the same over all 1s2p of the 16s.

To keep them balanced well i will dishcarge to max about 15-16Ah.

Doc

 

[dnmun]

if you wanna use diodes, why not try these? there may be some others to split the order with too. i would take one myself.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/400244740084?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

 

[Doctorbass]

if you wanna use diodes, why not try these? there may be some others to split the order with too. i would take one myself.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/400244740084?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

Yeah, but these are 15V diode... :lol: that wold make a great plasma!

and at 100A they would dissipate 38 watts of heat... maybe finding a high current ideal diode circuit that is using mosfet and have a voltage lower than 0.38V would be perfect!

Doc

 

[dnmun]

i doubt if there would ever be more than 15V difference between the two packs. if they are that far off something else is wrong.

 

[Njay]

This one is from MAXIM, but I know TI and Linear also have such chips:

http://datasheets.maximintegrated.com/en/ds/MAX16914-MAX16915.pdf

 

[Doctorbass]

i doubt if there would ever be more than 15V difference between the two packs. if they are that far off something else is wrong.

That's true, the volt diff between the two packs would be lower, but if one pack have a BMs that cut the juice the V diff between the two packs would be the total V of one of the battery packs wich is 58V

Doc

 

[dnmun]

but it would be an open circuit if the BMS shut off.

if you can make some ideal diodes with lower forward bias that would be better. these would need a heat sink in any case. the heat is why i try to talk people out of using diodes for no reason. but you gotta reason since they are different packs.

 

[Doctorbass]

UPdate from 4 march

-Testing all 34 A123 pouches cells in RI and Capacity at medium rate 34 cells tested. CHECK
-Preparing all cells for the Agniusm kit: CHECK
-Assembling all cells in the AGNIUSM kit: CHECK
-Building the aluminum box to be strong, water tight and welding free: CHECK
-Preparing the 6 AWG cables for connnectin to cells: CHECK
-Installing the Signalab 16s BMS and upgrading it for 400A: PENDING

Here is some pictures for you guys :wink:

Doc

 

[Doctorbass]

Update from 4 march

The battery is finished and i am at the point where i need to connect the Signalab 16s BMS to the battery but it's a stock 40A bms. the first idea i had was to use 4 car relay with coil in serie to get an equivalent 48V coul that would be driven by the BMS output and have the contact in parallel. I would het about 80A x 4 = 320A max and have 160mA of current to drive the relay that wold also be activated with a 12V relay that conect to the Zero 12V system so once the zero is ON, the relay let the 48V out of the BMS to go to the relay coil and activate them to conduct up to 320A. this desing is simple but will draw 170mAh every hour... for nothing... and these 1 cu inch car relay just dont enter in the battery case i designed...

Then i thought abot using my EV-200 that would be driven by a 48V to 12V dc-dc where the 48V is from the BMS output... but again the contactor is big and draw 1.9W for nothing... i could also add a 12v relay in serie that would be active only when the zero is ON, but it add some connections between the battery and the motorcycle.. and also the EV-200 is too big.. i would need to install it out of the battery wich is not esthetic.

Then i thought about adding some 4110 mosfet to the signalab bms and use it as is but with more parallel mosfet... i remember that i was able to drive like 20A continuous with minimal heat sink at 58V for only one mosfet...! so for 300A+ i would need 15 of them... and if my controller have regen i woul need to double that !

OK.. wait a minute... 300A is for burst and the average is more like 50-60A on my Zero.. at least... this is what i have recorded with my Cycle analyst... so this mean i could just install like 10 of them for having 100A cont and 400A burst? safely? Hmm ... will see with the update on his thread.

Doc

 

[Doctorbass]

Update from 10 march

Tonight i measured the energy of my 16s2p A123 for my zero battery upgrade.

Here are the results with the battery top balanced at 3.65V with the help of the BC168 great tool:

CONTINUOUS DISCHASRGE AT 1C:
Total capacity: 37.32Ah (at 1C) That's exactly what i have measured at 5.5C discharge ( 100A) wich is 18.66Ah per cell average
Total energy: 1879Wh ( at 1C)
LVC was 2.1V cut

BMS is the Signalab V2.5 that i modified with copper heatsink and 5x 4110 Fets ( 3 for the load and 2 for the charge) From now the load will only be the dc-dc and EV200 contactor that will drive ULTRA HIGH CURRENT for the BMS.

After that i began to charge it with my meanwell 1500W that output 37A max and the two charge mosfet only got a little warm... I measured 47 celsius wich is encouraging. The turnigy 10AWG is really doing a great job at that current!

Doc

 

[Doctorbass]

Update 14 march:

-2nd side cover with mechanical fit to the sealed wire acces: check
-Tested and working LVC and HVC from the signalab v2.4: check
-Windows for the BMS led: check
-Super Vu Tron AWG 2 welding cable extra flexible with 34awg strands: ARRIVED
-Lot of SB120 Anderson connectors and lugs: pending
-Battery top cover: pending

Doc

 

[sabongi]

Awesome DOC!

What´s the bike performance with these?

 

[Doctorbass]

Awesome DOC!

What´s the bike performance with these?

It’s not tested yet, but I’m expecting to get better range from the stock pack plus the additional range of the extra pack.

The current will be shared between two pack and the A123 extra pack can deliver high current so the capacity of the stock pack should increase a bit due to lower current demand on it sice it will be back up with the A123.

Probably around 100 real km total with the first A123 extra pack added,

Then there are two solutions:

Solution one is to still keep the max 58V and add a 2nd extra pack of the same voltage in parallel to add 3kWh and gain another 60km range for a total of 160km

Solution 2 is to keep the same capacity but increase the voltage of the pack by adding an extra pack of 100Ah 25V ( 2.5kWh) in serie to get about 83-84V and get the top full performances of the agni 95R. The cons would be to have 0.5kWh less than the solution 1.

 

[Farfle]

Heya doc, 'm going to need a dozen feet of 4awg wire for my bike, how did you like that stuff? Pretty much looking for the same stuff.

 

[Doctorbass]

Heya doc, 'm going to need a dozen feet of 4awg wire for my bike, how did you like that stuff? Pretty much looking for the same stuff.

Really satisfied with!.. very flexible, but not much than the standard rubber welding cables... the most flexible cable i have are still the Turnigy silicone wires... they are hard to beat.

Now that famous question: WHY do i am searching for very flexible cable???:

Well.. it's for two reasons: first: during the cold of winter, they are easy to manipulate and also they have very dense conductor area and and ultra small strands wich make them smaller diameter for the same current rating.

There is a guy on ebay that is selling these and he does have the 4 AWG :wink: just search for super vu tron

That cable quality of industrial rating with that copper purity and diameter for the cable size is respected and is not made of crap copper aluminum and brass or steel aloy so the miliohm per lenght is conform

Doc

 

[mistercrash]

You make me proud to be a French Quebeker because I know you are one also. On né lé meilleurs sti! Geez that battery looks awesome! J'capote man!

 

[Ariane]

Hi Doc,

Amazing job my friend I really love your new battery back. Well is better to add some volt to this DS motorcycle and to reveal the true power of an Agni 95 R otherwise I will past you with my CCM ebike this year but i will be run out of juice in no time : lol: lol: just kidding, good day!

Bruno

 

[Doctorbass]

Thanks Bruno

I admit i am proud of that battery. It take alot of time to make and measure and think and engineer but it will last long and deliver great performances without any danger.


( no worrie i will replace the actual Alltrax controller adn will replace it by a 90V 600A Kelly =) so it will be able to take 84V on a fully charged battery. Also, the stock 14s LiMn BMS of the zero will remain intact and will continu to manage the zero battery. All the serie and parallel battery i will add will be independent BMS protected and all will have a diode to avoid reverse current problems. Also the recharge will be protected with diodes. The main zero 3kwh battery will be the master of the 2 extra battery so if the main contactor is not active or if any LVC will be detected, the two second battery will disconect.

Here is the last configuratio i will have for the total battery arrangenent: