Electric Motorcycle - Where to start?

[quelsurprise]

Hi all,

I just managed to get a KTM Duke 690, already with the engine removed. zero miles, no oil anywhere
I've built electric skateboards and bikes, and batteries, so I have some experience with motors, controllers and batteries, but very little clue in terms of planning which parts I'll need for this.

I'd like to use a mid motor and not hub, the goal would be 70-80mph top speed, then as much range as the battery I can fit in, the biggest battery I've built was a 12s4p, so not sure if I'd be confident enough to build something that I'd guess is many times that in cells.

Any pointers or suggestions on where to start researching the most suitable motor, battery, controller, and all the other things that I undoubtably am not aware of yet?!

Andy

 

[SlowCo]

Start by reading build threads here on this forum:
EScooter/EMotorcycle Build Threads

Then work out what build comes closest to your wishes. And learn from their mistakes and choices of motor, controller and battery builds. Not sure if you want it to be road legal? If so, also check for the rules and regulations on how to do so.
Good luck and enjoy the process.

 

[jetpackjbd]

Would you prefer to use brushed or brushless? The efficiency isn’t going to be too much different with a brushed motor if it’s going to be chain driven either way. Brushed motor controllers are cheaper at higher power levels if that’s a big factor for you. If you do choose to go that route, industrial motors (even old used ones) could be a good way to get cheap power. That’s how I’d do it at least, although I’ve never done it on a motorcycle before

 

[jetpackjbd]

Would you prefer to use brushed or brushless? The efficiency isn’t going to be too much different with a brushed motor if it’s going to be chain driven either way. Brushed motor controllers are cheaper at higher power levels if that’s a big factor for you. If you do choose to go that route, industrial motors (even old used ones) could be a good way to get cheap power. That’s how I’d do it at least, although I’ve never done it on a motorcycle before

Was just looking now, brushed motors over 1HP seem pretty rare these days. I still stand by the idea of repurposing industrial motors though, for example I found someone selling a 15HP 3 phase motor near me. I imagine something Iike this could meet your requirements as it’s about the same size as a small engine, and 15 (electric) horsepower should be enough to get a motorcycle up to 80. At least up to 60.

 

[quelsurprise]

Was just looking now, brushed motors over 1HP seem pretty rare these days. I still stand by the idea of repurposing industrial motors though, for example I found someone selling a 15HP 3 phase motor near me. I imagine something Iike this could meet your requirements as it’s about the same size as a small engine, and 15 (electric) horsepower should be enough to get a motorcycle up to 80. At least up to 60.

thanks for the response and digging that out,

this looks like an interesting thread for brushed vs brushless, I'll see how much a brushless and controller would be to compare with brushed.

brushed vs. brushless motors

I keep hearing about brushed and brushless motors and the concensus seems to be brushless is better...less to go wrong, yet I haven't found any problems relating to brushes. The problem seem to be related to controllers, wiring, batteries, chargers and burning up motors. Anyone ever had to...

endless-sphere.com

 

[SlowCo]

Weight/power ratio of a brushed industrial motor is not ideal for a motorcycle build like this.

 

[quelsurprise]

Start by reading build threads here on this forum:
EScooter/EMotorcycle Build Threads

Then work out what build comes closest to your wishes. And learn from their mistakes and choices of motor, controller and battery builds. Not sure if you want it to be road legal? If so, also check for the rules and regulations on how to do so.
Good luck and enjoy the process.

Thanks, I do want it to be road legal, we're in NM, which I think is more relaxed than some states, but will definitely check what's needed. Luckily the bike is complete in terms of lights and brakes.
Checking out the build threads to se which ones are close to what I'm after.

 

[floydr]

Was just looking now, brushed motors over 1HP seem pretty rare these days.

Lots of brushed motors over 1HP, Motenergy Motenergy Brush-Type DC Motors 3-20 HP permanent magnet brushed and brushless. D&D series and Sepex Electric Car Motors | DC EV Motors, Controllers & Conversion Kits , AMD Advanced Motors & Drives | NIDEC CORPORATION . Agni AGNI – Axial Flux Brushed and Brushless Motors permanent magnet brushed and brushless. Various forklift brushed motors have been used on motorcycles.
Later floyd

​

 

[quelsurprise]

Lots of brushed motors over 1HP, Motenergy Motenergy Brush-Type DC Motors 3-20 HP permanent magnet brushed and brushless. D&D series and Sepex Electric Car Motors | DC EV Motors, Controllers & Conversion Kits , AMD Advanced Motors & Drives | NIDEC CORPORATION . Agni AGNI – Axial Flux Brushed and Brushless Motors permanent magnet brushed and brushless. Various forklift brushed motors have been used on motorcycles.
Later floyd

​

Thanks Floyd

 

[quelsurprise]

this is going to be fun, and probably take me 2 years!

 

[amberwolf]

Before you get too much further, I highly recommend reading the MC build threads I've posted in, for the parts about defining the job you want the bike to do so you can find out the power required to do it, so you can then pick the right parts for the bike to do what you want it to do.

Some of them also have posts about mounting things, cooling them, designing / picking batteries, etc. Each one will be specific to taht build, but the general idea of them will apply to many builds.

 

[quelsurprise]

Before you get too much further, I highly recommend reading the MC build threads I've posted in, for the parts about defining the job you want the bike to do so you can find out the power required to do it, so you can then pick the right parts for the bike to do what you want it to do.

Some of them also have posts about mounting things, cooling them, designing / picking batteries, etc. Each one will be specific to taht build, but the general idea of them will apply to many builds.

Thank you!
I'll start digging in, I'm definitely not ordering any parts until I feel I have a good grasp on what's required, then I'll ask re my choices, appreciate the guidance!

 

[harrisonpatm]

this is going to be fun, and probably take me 2 years!

That's what I said, but then I finished in 4 months

 

[jetpackjbd]

That's what I said, but then I finished in 4 months

Woah, someone’s finished an EV project in less time than expected? That’s unheard of!

 

[harrisonpatm]

Woah, someone’s finished an EV project in less time than expected? That’s unheard of!

Counting from the day I got the donor motorcycle off Craigslist, to the day I got on it and rode it for a couple miles without issues. Certainly there was plenty of cosmetic and tidying work to do afterwards (and still!) I don't mean it as a brag, I was just genuinely surprised myself. Maybe I mean that in some cases, piecing together an EV can be very achievable even for a novice.

 

[quelsurprise]

Still infinite research to do, but running through which motors would be suited, looking at the QS183 H90 V3 geared and the QS180. If I can get the QS180 to fit directly (maybe not), the center of the front sprocket will be approximately 4 3/4 to 5" from the edge of the swingarm, in research so far this seems like it's not ideal, and i'm pretty hesitant to go down the jackshaft (if that's what it's called?) route.

So the question is, are there any builds out there using the geared QS183 V3 90H and getting speeds of 70-80mph without pushing it? I searched the forum, though can't see anything to confirm if it's possible or not (with the right controller and battery)

Looking at my main route it'd need 70mph for about 10-15 minutes.

 

[amberwolf]

Have you already simulated or calculated the power requirements for your riding conditions/speed/style/weight/etc?

 

[quelsurprise]

I need to watch their Grin motor tutorials, I got stuck on what to set for the custom motor settings.
planning to do so this weekend.

 

[quelsurprise]

hi, trying to figure if I've used the correct custom settings for a QS180, 96v 50Ah battery and the 3SHUL controller, any guidance is appreciated, thanks.

Calculated the kv from the base max rpm, not the field weakened max.

Motor Simulator - Tools

Our ebike motor simulator allows you to easily simulate the different performance characteristics of different ebike setups - with a wide selection of hub motors modeled, and the ability to add custom batteries and controllers and set a wide variety of vehicle parameters you'll be able to see...

ebikes.ca

 

[j bjork]

I dont think your numbers are correct. I think the phase to phase resistanse is about 5mohm (or 0.005ohm). Inductance is about 65mH I think. I have probably posted about it in my build thread when I tried to tune the sevcon, and possibly later with the hesc.
I think your kv is wrong too, it should be somewere between 55-60 I think

 

[quelsurprise]

I dont think your numbers are correct. I think the phase to phase resistanse is about 5mohm (or 0.005ohm). Inductance is about 65mH I think. I have probably posted about it in my build thread when I tried to tune the sevcon, and possibly later with the hesc.
I think your kv is wrong too, it should be somewere between 55-60 I think

Thanks! I'll see what those settings show and dig out your Sevcon thread

 

[j bjork]

Sorry, I think it should be 65uH not mH. But the numbers should be in the thread. You dont have to look in a sevcon thread, I am not sure it is posted there anyway. Just look in the yamaha build thread, everything is posted there. And I think you can find the numbers in the later parts when I start tuning the 3shul (hesc). Should be around april or so this year.

 

[quelsurprise]

Sorry, I think it should be 65uH not mH. But the numbers should be in the thread. You dont have to look in a sevcon thread, I am not sure it is posted there anyway. Just look in the yamaha build thread, everything is posted there. And I think you can find the numbers in the later parts when I start tuning the 3shul (hesc). Should be around april or so this year.

Thanks!
finally the weekend and time to check this out

 

[quelsurprise]

So about gearing, loosely, very loosely speaking, if the fastest I'd want it to go (in short bursts) is 70-80mph, would it be best to gear it so the motor is at it's top rpm (without field weakening) at 80mph?

QS180 - 4350rpm to 7000rpm

Looking at the gearing it seems like I'd probably not need a jackshaft reduction, I may need it as I can't get the front sprocket close enough to the swingarm, but not for reducing the rpm.

am I totally off track here?

 

[amberwolf]

If you want good acceleration torque even as you approach max speed, you'll have to gear it for a higher speed by some amount. I'm not sure exactly how much, but you can use the ebikes.ca motor simulator to get the approximate idea--the torque curve it has will intersect the speed curve at the point you don't get any faster. Change parameters (voltage, current, and/or gear ratio for a middrive) until the torque is still as high as you want it to be while at the maximum speed you want to go.