ELECTRIC TRANSMISSION DELTA /WYE and SERIE/PAPALLEL stator

[rkosiorek]

Good to hear Doc! can`t wait to hear your experiences.

i think that you will only be using the high turn count mode only briefly during hard launches. most of the time you will be in the low turn mode.

rick

 

[steveo]

I hope doc attempt is better then mine lol...

[youtube]7RnsOCxJZnY[/youtube]

[youtube]wNiKJJa90jc[/youtube]

-steveo

 

[Doctorbass]

It's ALIVE !!! 8)

Motor mod done and it work!!!

I just need to assemble the 12 lipo + BMS in the battery case for 88.8V 15Ah.

No load speed at 100V(psu);

84km/h serie mode

99km/h+ ( CA reading max :lol: ) but i expect to be around 170km/h

here is some preview for those who can't wait for the 100+ pics i took and will post soon:

Dont worrie, the little 9 conductor flat is soldered without any short and now is poted in epoxy!!

 

[rkosiorek]

wow that is a heck of a lot neater than what i ended up with doing point to point wiring. i think that you have proven that this is the way to go if you are going to do it.

how heavy is the copper on the board. was the board etched? or did you just CNC the traces and cutouts for the relay leads.

I WANNA SEE IT RUN> < I WANNA SEE IT RIGHT NOW!!!!>

rick

ps. good looking bike by the way. and i hope you didn't notice, but i have some minor issues with impulse control. leastways thats what my lawyer called it.

 

[steveo]

It's ALIVE !!! 8)

Motor mod done and it work!!!

I just need to assemble the 12 lipo + BMS in the battery case for 88.8V 15Ah.

No load speed at 100V(psu);

84km/h serie mode

99km/h+ ( CA reading max :lol: ) but i expect to be around 170km/h

here is some preview for those who can't wait for the 100+ pics i took and will post soon:

Dont worrie, the little 9 conductor flat is soldered without any short and now is poted in epoxy!!

i gaurente 70mph+ @ 120v!

one word.,,,

AWSOMENESSS!!!!

-steveo

 

[Doctorbass]

TOTALLY INCREDIBLE !!!

I finally had a chance to test it !

I have beat my last speed record!!!

96.3km/hm USING A DH EBIKE !!!! :wink:

What i can conclude with minimal observations:

Serie or parallel give same acceleration from now.. the parallel give higher toop speed.

I get 68km/h in serie 5306 mode with 24s lipo.

i'll test more this weekend with bikeraider.

OGM.. i beated the 94.3km/h with a DH bike!!!... WTF.. I should work on the speed boke and make ot REALLY operatre as it should !!


Doc

 

[Ariane]

Hi Doc,

Congratulation nice ride and this ebike look's very nice, i'm impatient to see you, take care my friend

Good night!
Black Arrow

 

[John in CR]

Doc,

Great work! The more I see that Giant DH Comp the more I want one.

My interest in series/parallel is for performance on long hill climbs. I believe steeper hills will be possible in series, not because of more torque, but because the motor will be in a better efficiency rpm range and the cut off speed for current limiting is half. That means both motor and controller will be less tortured with the series connection.

I'm surprised that your current was half resulting in same acceleration. Current limiting must not be nearly the issue that it is for me on my bikes, and your bike really highlights what Luke has been saying. On my bikes current limiting is such an issue, that I think I should see a marked improvement in 0-30kph acceleration with a switch to series, because I don't expect a big difference, less yes, but not a 50% reduction in current during takeoff. Luke, if I'm still missing something, please explain, because I'm hoping being able to turn my 2 turn motors into 4 turn motors at the flip of a switch to solve my partial throttle hill climbing issue, and even allow me to climb steeper hills than is currently possible.

John

 

[karma]

yes i saw your video. that is fast. got the attention of the drivers around you they stopped to have a look

how Manny hours do you have in rebuilding the motor?

 

[karma]

Here is some easy explainations about

HOW TO CONVERT:

your 5302 to a 5304
or your 5303 to a 5306
or your 5304 to a 5308
or your 5305 to a 5310
or your 5306 to a 5312

Each brushless hub motor like the crystalyte, 9 continents or golden etc have each 3 phases that are connected in STAR mode wich mean each of these 3 phases have one end that connect to the other 2 phases ( known as COMMON)

Each of these phase are made of not one big strand of cooper but many smaller size parallel strands . Ex: a 5303 have 8 strands for each of the 3 phases.

Now, if we decide to split each phase into two individual group of equal strands number, we will convert from one winding per phase, to two insulated and individual winding per phase.

And, if we connect those two winding per phase in serie, we will double the actual number of turn per pole and will by that way modify the Kv of the motor ( RPM per volt) or if you preffer the speed of the motor.

As we know a 5306 is slower but for the same current you get twice torque as a 5303.

YOU CAN NOT CONVERT ANY ORIGINAL 5304 into 5302 or 5306 into 5303 it's only one way and you can only increase the torque and decrease the speed per volt of your motor.

Power will remain the same.


You can do it permanantly or have the possibility to switch back to any mode by using relay to change the connections automaticly by energizing 6 relays that you need to fit into the motor. Unlike the Delta star, where the relay can be installed outside the motor, serie Parallel need to use 12 seperated connections and it's nearly impossible to cary all that thru the axel... so RELAY ARE INSIDE THE HUB.... IF YOU HAVE THE ROOM FOR THEM AS WELL !

Doc

Ive been away for some time doc.. is there no end to the madness im going to give this a try without the relays.
forget about the other post i did a back track on the thread i see you posted the time it would take to mod.

if you get the chance could you run a test to see what would happen if one of the relays fail maybe post a video..
thanks.


cheers

 

[karma]

as always your right :wink: it works i did a test ypedals old motor. the speed dropped a bit but theirs way more tork. i can see how your motor halls a@@.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7lsOtVFyqI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5r98Sg1jWg


thanks for posting

 

[Doctorbass]

Here is some easy explainations about

HOW TO CONVERT:

your 5302 to a 5304
or your 5303 to a 5306
or your 5304 to a 5308
or your 5305 to a 5310
or your 5306 to a 5312

Each brushless hub motor like the crystalyte, 9 continents or golden etc have each 3 phases that are connected in STAR mode wich mean each of these 3 phases have one end that connect to the other 2 phases ( known as COMMON)

Each of these phase are made of not one big strand of cooper but many smaller size parallel strands . Ex: a 5303 have 8 strands for each of the 3 phases.

Now, if we decide to split each phase into two individual group of equal strands number, we will convert from one winding per phase, to two insulated and individual winding per phase.

And, if we connect those two winding per phase in serie, we will double the actual number of turn per pole and will by that way modify the Kv of the motor ( RPM per volt) or if you preffer the speed of the motor.

As we know a 5306 is slower but for the same current you get twice torque as a 5303.

YOU CAN NOT CONVERT ANY ORIGINAL 5304 into 5302 or 5306 into 5303 it's only one way and you can only increase the torque and decrease the speed per volt of your motor.

Power will remain the same.


You can do it permanantly or have the possibility to switch back to any mode by using relay to change the connections automaticly by energizing 6 relays that you need to fit into the motor. Unlike the Delta star, where the relay can be installed outside the motor, serie Parallel need to use 12 seperated connections and it's nearly impossible to cary all that thru the axel... so RELAY ARE INSIDE THE HUB.... IF YOU HAVE THE ROOM FOR THEM AS WELL !

Doc

Ive been away for some time doc.. is there no end to the madness im going to give this a try without the relays.
forget about the other post i did a back track on the thread i see you posted the time it would take to mod.

if you get the chance could you run a test to see what would happen if one of the relays fail maybe post a video..
thanks.


cheers

I have to check for something going wrong in the relay.

The serie mode ( energized relay) now fail.. The motor vibrate alot ( i suspect that one or more of the relay have problem)

The parallel mode work nice, but again i suspect that the vibration and shock of the wheel on the ground, the N-C position of them might switch open during brief moment if the mecanical shock on the wheel is too intense and could make the contact between the winding and the controller becoming open and creating high voltage arc... I blown my controller twice time and had to replace a trio of mosfet twice times from now.

so internal relay MIGHT have some problem with vibrations that make pulsate the contact of the N-C position.. the spring on the relay contact might not be tough enough to keep the contact perfectly close if some high vibration occur. :?

Just an theory from now.. NOTHING CONFIRMED...

It also might be the fact that the screw on some of the mosfet just become loose.. I had ti rethighten all 18 of them last time.. I might also add some Loctite threadlocker no 290.

I confirm.. The torque seem to remain the same in serie or parallel

.. But in parallel, the controller heat alot more!!!.. so in one hand it's your controller that heat up.. and in the other hand it's the motor.. you choose wich you preffer :lol:

Doc

 

[karma]

that's why i asked i had the same problem with delta wye whenever i hit a pothole. i took out the springs and replaced them with a thicker Gage spring. but then i had to over volt the relay to get it to latch. they ran hot but it worked. sorry to hear the controller blew. better a blown controller and shutter in the wheel than a wheel locking up going 106kmh



cheers

 

[Doctorbass]

i took out the springs and replaced them with a thicker Gage spring. but then i had to over volt the relay to get it to latch. they ran hot but it worked

That S exactly what i thought!

But overvolting the relay would result in drasticly shorting the life of their coil! I tested these relay in a Thermotron that we have at my work. I raised them to 140 celsius ambiant and then i activated the coil with 12.0V source. The measured temp on the coil was 180+ celsius wich is extreme!! so just adding like 4 volt to the coild could raise it to 220 celsius!

not easy!

I am now wondering if i keep that like this and still test that serie paralle to the real limit we all want to know or if i dissassemble that and use serie only... or parallel only... thats the question!

parallel =
-higher top speed ( up to maybe 110kmh)
-less heat lost in the motor
-higher controller temp due to very high phase current

serie =
-lower top speed ( around 75-80kmh)
-more hest lost in the motor
-controller run alot cooler

 

[gf3]

just wondering if it make any difference if the relays switch side to side instead of up and down? I can imagine hitting a pot hole could make the contacts jump up and down but they may not have that problem if they switched side to side.

 

[karma]

no difference. its not just the vibration that makes them fail its the carbon that builds up on the contacts from the vibration. only 100% fix would be to go solid state. or build a surge protector for the controller

once the contacts get pits and carbon build up there finished....

 

[AussieJester]

I am now wondering if i keep that like this and still test that serie paralle to the real limit we all want to know or if i dissassemble that and use serie only... or parallel only... thats the question!

How often you expect to be running around at "100km/hr" Doc? Seems a no brainer to me, series, protect the controller and drill some more holes in the motor.

KiM

 

[John in CR]

I am now wondering if i keep that like this and still test that serie paralle to the real limit we all want to know or if i dissassemble that and use serie only... or parallel only... thats the question!

How often you expect to be running around at "100km/hr" Doc? Seems a no brainer to me, series, protect the controller and drill some more holes in the motor.

KiM

For street riding I doubt Doc will want to give up that strong pull up to at least 80kph, which is used with passing speed and power still on tap. Instead of series, put a fan to ventilate the controller with a thermal switch to turn it on automatically. Oh, and just drill the holes to the correct angle along with interior vanes/blades for far better ventilation, more aren't necessary.

 

[Doctorbass]

I am now wondering if i keep that like this and still test that serie paralle to the real limit we all want to know or if i dissassemble that and use serie only... or parallel only... thats the question!

How often you expect to be running around at "100km/hr" Doc? Seems a no brainer to me, series, protect the controller and drill some more holes in the motor.

KiM

For street riding I doubt Doc will want to give up that strong pull up to at least 80kph, which is used with passing speed and power still on tap. Instead of series, put a fan to ventilate the controller with a thermal switch to turn it on automatically. Oh, and just drill the holes to the correct angle along with interior vanes/blades for far better ventilation, more aren't necessary.

Yes.. That's still the question.. SERIE or PARALLEL :? :? :?

Each have their advantages.... but in one case it's the controller that heat alot and the other case it's the motor....

I hate replacing mosfet!!! ( parallel is ok for that)

I have temp sensor on the motor... ( serie is ok with that)

I want low speed torque for the up hill ride.... ( serie is better due to lower heat)

Serie still gaved me around 75kmh wich is ok..

My 5305 is still in very good conditions with 6000km on it with 100A+ at 100V

So serie 5306 would be good too...

but the aceleration from 60 to 80-90 and 100kmh is still AMAZING !!!

Wich choose!!!

I really would had appreciate that the serie parallel would be less vulnerable to all these vibrations!! I could keep both mode with a switch!!


Wich mode to choose.. that'S the question!!!!

Doc

 

[Kingfish]

Wich mode to choose.. that'S the question!!!!

Doc, do a 2WD with one each
~KF

 

[liveforphysics]

Build a controller around a real FET package (not to220), and run it as a straight 5303. Best of everything.

 

[andreym]

It seems to me that 24mosfet 4110 controller will resolve this issue )))
also if you wish to run more efficiently on 5303 at slow speeds, just make a switch on the battery to make it 44.4v-88.8v switchable as you have on your previous bike
at lower voltage in parallel mode (as original 5303) but with high current limit will work just fine even for climbing,
also at lower voltage controller heating would be less if i understand correctly.

Your bike is just great to my mind,
that frame is my dream.
But get some slick tyres, i use Maxxis Hookworm for my rear 9C and it`s 2.5thick!

 

[liveforphysics]

Doc- This was a post I wrote for Arlo originally on the topic of rewinding a burnt x5305, but as it relates to the topic of this thread so closely (improving crystalyte motor performance), I thought it might be handy to have the info in here as well. The relays help the controller heating, but actually decrease the performance of the motor by just a touch by adding a bit more resistance to the current path. With a re-wind, there is a lot of potential to make some big improvements in motor performance, but of course it also means a TON of time and work to do it. I figured you would be another one of the few folks with the skills and determination to actually manage to do it.

From the factory, a 5305 motor is wound with 4 pieces of 21awg wire wrapping around each tooth 5 times. 21awg wire has a x-section of 0.412mm^2, so the combined 4 strands have a x-section of 1.648mm^2, or roughly equal to a single pass of 15awg wire.

The 5304 motor uses 6 pieces of 21awg wire wrapping around each tooth 4 times. Combined x-section of 2.472mm^2, or roughly equal to a single pass of 13.5awg wire.

The 5303 motor uses 8 pieces of 21awg wire wrapping around each tooth 3 times. Combinded x-section of 3.296mm^2, or roughly equal to a single pass of 12awg wire.


Arlo- I believe you could take square/rectangle wire with a x-section of 12awg (depending on how sloppy the factory windings are, maybe possible with round wire as well), and get the same 5-turns with it that you're using now. This would mean identical torque per amp for your motor, but HALF the winding resistance! This would be a huge improvement in power handling and top speed. It should mean roughly ~50% higher power handling for the motor, and a ~100% increase in continuous torque capability over a factory 5305.

 

[fechter]

In order to push big amps into a 2 or 3 turn winding, the phase wire resistance becomes sort of a bottleneck. Ideally those wires need to be very low resistance compared to the winding resistance. If the wires were really fat everywhere except where they pass through the axle, it would help a lot.

Rewinding one of those looks pretty time consuming, but since its so big, it looks pretty straightforward. I've rewound a few motors before. It would give the opportunity to use better wire (class H), use better slot insulators, and get the fill a little more optimized. Using a crapload of really thin wires has some efficiency advantages, but if they are too thin, they break easily. It should be possible to calculate close enough the number of strands vs. size to get the desired fill.

The bistable latching relays off eBay might be less prone to vibration. At least you don't have to power them except when switching. It would take a bunch of them to do a series/parallel setup though.

 

[Doctorbass]

It seems to me that 24mosfet 4110 controller will resolve this issue )))
also if you wish to run more efficiently on 5303 at slow speeds, just make a switch on the battery to make it 44.4v-88.8v switchable as you have on your previous bike
at lower voltage in parallel mode (as original 5303) but with high current limit will work just fine even for climbing,
also at lower voltage controller heating would be less if i understand correctly.

Your bike is just great to my mind,
that frame is my dream.
But get some slick tyres, i use Maxxis Hookworm for my rear 9C and it`s 2.5thick!

I tghought about that ( serie parallel battery voltage) for better efficiency at low speed.. but it's again more weight to the ebike ( contactors etc..)

I want to keep this new project as light as possible compared to the mongoose ( 130lbs)

The Maxis tires will probably be some of my next order :wink: