electrical rpms, controllers and outrunners

[mechanix]

I got a couple of controllers from lyen recently and they have the 112a chipset. I does anybody here know what electrical rpms these controllers will be capable of? I did a search and came up with nothing. I'm running two hxt 80-100 outrunners at 80V.

80V*130rpm/V = 10,400rpm

The motors have fourteen poles so:

10,400*14 = 145,600 electrical rpm?? Is this correct? I haven't heard of any controllers out there besides rc controllers that are capable of this many electrical rpms.

 

[gwhy!]

I cant say for sure ( as i have not played around with this chipset but I would have thought they will not derate the speed so yes it will be fine the 12fet i have run my motor upto 10.5k without any problems.

 

[Thud]

here is a video(edit) 116 driver chip spinning an 80/85-180 at 11,300.

[youtube]wi5xW0tOYAA[/youtube]

I don't know where they max out at.....I will test on 72v soon & see if we hit the wall.......although this is some crazy rpms on these motors

(edit:-assumed the unit had a 116 chip & was mis-described in op, sorry)

 

[mechanix]

Awesome, Thanks guys that's exactly what I needed!

Joel

 

[Arlo1]

Yup 100 volts lets see it!

 

[John in CR]

Are we talking about a sensored or sensorless? Thud is yours running with sensors or sensorless? I ask because my sensorless 18fet seems to be quite rpm limited, though it could be because I made a special request for it to be both sensored and sensorless.

 

[Arlo1]

If I had to guess the thing in the video is sensored and the sensors are on the out side of the motor?

 

[Lyen]

Hi Joel,

Sorry that I did not inform you that the controllers you have received uses the newest controller MCU chipset. The 112a an updated version of the 116. It has all the features as on the 116. In addition, the circuit boards used are the more expensive ones called Low Dissipate (LD) for low heat dissipate for less heat built up inside the case. It is also more energy efficient. I'll call it version 2.0 or Mark II on the advertisement.

I was told the new chip can sustain a little higher RPM than the 116. I have actually ordered a couple Turnigy 130kv motors from Hobbyking. They should arrived in a couple of weeks. I will let you know my results once I have physically tested it. Unfortunately, there is no electrical data on RPM. The physical RPM tested on a typical ebike motor without rim was tested at 6000-6800 rpm range. Your monster HXT outrunner should be fine as long as you have added the hall sensors at the appropriate spacing or hall angle.

Regards,
Lyen

 

[mechanix]

Lyen,

Sorry about letting the cat out of the bag! It's a good feeling to actually get more than you paid for, I'll definitely buy from you again!

Joel

 

[Jeremy Harris]

BTW, a 14 magnet rotor is actually 7 pole-pairs, not 14 pole, so the electrical rpm will be 7 times the motor shaft rpm. In this case, that makes the electrical rpm 10,400 x 7 = 72,800.

The best way to think of this is in terms of commutation frequency though, as that gives a good indicator of what the controller is having to do. In this case, the controller will have to generate a pseudo three phase waveform with a frequency of 1,213 Hz to drive this motor at maximum no-load rpm.

It would be good if we could find some data giving maximum commutation frequency for each of these controllers. Its largely code-dependent, I think, as in reality these things are only specialised microcontrollers running a bit of code to generate the phase drive signals. The maximum frequency probably depends on how well optimised the code is; if designed for hub motor use then its quite likely the person writing the code didn't worry too much about speed.

Jeremy

 

[Thud]

Lyen said:

BTW, this is supposed to be the secret chip for the upcoming sensorless controller for RC motors. I guess it is too late to say do not disclose by now.

All this "secret" crap is marketing BS & not in the spirit of open source....I am a capitalist, but have a very short fuse on guy's mineing this forum for data & then posting teaser pictures, only to then offer the stuff for sale & personal gain....Some of the few doing this have had nearly ZERO input when the tech discusions are going on.

If your selling "beta" versions of a product the buyer should know up front.
Information such as this would be instrumental in the desicion making proccess for a customer, Withholding it will get some one to buy a controller now, & another one in 4 weeks when the revisions are suddenly available.......good buisness for sure, border line ethics in this format of Idea exchange, foul if we are your customer base.

Am I wrong to feel this way? I am a satisfied customer of Lyen's ,but buy not contributing openly in the exchange of ideas flowing through here, & participating at that level I am re-evaluating my consumer loyalties.

Lyen,
Please, if you have ideas or info to better the comunity as a whole, start offering it up.
I realize my check book is only one vote, but I am commited to the democratic proccess in this repulblic.
Respectfully Thud.

 

[Lyen]

Hi Thud,

I apologize for that. I have removed the wordings and will make another post on the upcoming controller with more realistic data to contribute to the ES community.

Sincerely,
Lyen

 

[John in CR]

Thud,

My impression is that Lyen is sworn to secrecy by more direct connections he has in China, and we don't want those connections severed. I have no issue at all since he is able to get some of the newest stuff out, and sells it at competitive prices. Also, it gives us a fairly direct means of getting ideas for improvements through to the people who can make those improvements. This has lead to some incredibly fast evolution toward better controllers. We should all want someone to mine the wealth of info shared freely on ES and turn it into products we can purchase at fair prices. The more that happens the better ebikes we can build. If no one turns it into better products, then it's only sharing among a few. Without a profit motive somewhere along the line there's no product, and we'd be left with either stock bike controllers coming out of China, or the high priced low on features controllers sold by Kelly that are evolving relatively slow.

John

 

[Thud]

John,
straight sensored set up (correction older 116 mcu)
Here is a responce I sent Mr. Lyen to a PM this morning after my comments.
Thud wrote:

Mr Lyen,
I am not really offended by the post. So do not be concerned. I hope my observations have not offended you personaly. if so, please accept my apology.

My comment was intended to get you to participate more openly in the information sharing that the forum is so famouse for. I suspect you have "inside" information or at the very least some genuine help/input for guy's like me who are experimenting with this technology.

I completely understand if you are forbidden to do so by a working arangment with your suppliers or employers. I work on developmental projects in the furniture industry & operate under non-disclosure & confidentiality contracts often.

If your concern is a launguge barrier, then fear not. I have no problems with your written comunications.
thank you, & best regards.
Thud

(I ask your permision to post this PM reply to the thread in question)

if confidentiality is the case, then so be it. If a beta unit is out without the proper transactions & protection, then be carfull.

At best it was an honest mistake posting teaser shots of customers "dual motor controllers" & releasing beta equipment to some one who may or may not be aware of guinie pig status.

at worst its a shamless marketing plug that should be in the Sales section of the forum.

I have been a customer of Lyen's & can say he has been outstandingly helpfull & reputable in all my dealings. Quality product & service.
I just get anoyed when any one who is advertising services for profit (even tiny profits if that is the case) pops into threads, drops a teaser & removes it.....we have a section for all the self promotion any wants to do, Countered with the review section.

I would hope that instead of revaling "secret" projects & building "Hype" we could be a little better informed as to what our potential suppliers are capable of producing.
I am not the forum police, but this seemed a bit off-sides to me this morning. Rant -off.