ElectricRider or Ping Battery?

[Trailblazer]

Hi guys,

First post...been lurking for a while working on educating myself so I can talk smart on this subject...in other words, a total noob.

I'm getting a couple of 48V 20AH LIFePo4 packs for a friend of mine. He has MS and his electric trike is his life. He rides every day without fail. He's been using SLA's and now he wants to make the plunge to 21st century battery chemistry.

He needs two packs b/c he has to have a backup to get him home. He's pretty with it, but a backup bank just keeps him safe which is a necessity.

Was going to order a couple of battery packs from Ping when I discovered http://electricrider.com/batteries/index.htm electric rider's prices which are very competitive, especially for an in-country provider. They advertise that they build the batteries themselves and since they are in the US, shipping for a problem battery cost a lot less (duh).

Does anyone have any experience with these guys? I know a lot of folks like Ping, but I've also read about plenty of problems as well (good ole' Internet).

Any help is appreciated!

 

[dogman dan]

I know nothing about electric rider's batteries. I don't know what chemistry or what they are. They might assemble the pack in the USA, but likely the cells are from china. Just sent from the USA is good at times though.

But I've been a Ping fanboy since a few months after he started selling. Boy, was sending that cash to china scary then, in 2008. I'd say go ping myself, since I have been so happy with them. I've used up two now, and only not buying another because I had only $250 to spend this year.

Lifepo4 still has better cycle life expectancy than others. So that's a plus.

A couple options would appeal to me right now.

30 ah of ping. 40 is a LOT, he may not realize that he really will get double the range per ah from lithium vs lead.

48v 20 ah A123 lifepo4 from EM3 ev. Also a very ES trusted vendor, and the A123 cells are the best lifepo4 currently available.

One from column A and one from column B? One ping one A123? One A123 one Electricrider? One Ping, and dip a toe into RC lipo? A VERY small lipo pack can run the trike. 5 ah of 44v should take him 5 or more miles, and weigh only 7 pounds. Perfect for a reserve tank.

 

[dogman dan]

Back from ER's site. Pretty good selection there. Prices for lifepo4 are OK. Ping is far from the only place to get pouch cell lifepo4 packs now.

I do like pings bms. A row of lights tells the user that the pack definitely got all the cells fully charged, or not. If the worst bms defect happens, where the bms won't stop discharging a cell, the light stays lit, and you know you'd better un plug the thing NOW.

One A123 primary, one ER secondary? Ping, EM3 ev, or electricrider, I'd be adding a set of jst balance plugs to the pack. Then you can quickly check and or adjust voltages on any cell in the pack. Then you don't need the blinky lights on the bms. With the extra plugs, you can run cell level voltage displays like cellog 8's.

 

[spinningmagnets]

I read a lot. I don't know anything about electricrider, they could be great for all I know. What I DO know is that the most frequently posted happy customers for batteries are Ping and cell_man.

http://www.pingbattery.com/servlet/StoreFront
http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=35

 

[Tommy L]

My experience with A123 are that they are stable. No runaway cells that I've experienced, which means that the
chemistry is stable and the Internal Resistance is very balanced between cells. This allows for easy charge/balancing.

The Headway-Headquarters (Jimmie D) sells LiFePO4 kits and pre assemble batteries with BMS. He is here in the
USA. He provides great service.

I currently use both the Headway cells and the A123 cells. Been testing them both for two years now.
Headways are a bonus if you need to change out a bad cell.

My A123's come in an ABS case of 4s4p or 4s3p in a 12.8v pack. I link them in series to give me the voltage I require. 6 packs in series gives me 76.8v and
I've run up to 10 in series for 128v nominal

Tommy L sends.......

 

[skeetab5780]

wow that a123 pack musta cost a fortune, i was looking at the price of those the other day.

 

[SamTexas]

My A123's come in an ABS case of 4s4p or 4s3p ...

Just curious: Who's the seller? Link?

 

[wineboyrider]

My 1st adventure into electric bicycle building was a sparrow brushed motor from electricrider I had a good experiences with dealing with them via email and product service. Ironically though it was my ping battery that fried my brushed sparrow motor on a long trip one day

 

[Tommy L]

My A123's come in an ABS case of 4s4p or 4s3p ...

Just curious: Who's the seller? Link?

Hey SamTexas!

I am. I started a small business last year. I was interested in providing Motorcycle Start batteries. I ordered in a few boxes from different vendors that
offer different formats. Here's a pic of a format that mimics motorcycle start batteries.

My company is RawVelocity

 

[SamTexas]

Thanks for the info.

Still curious:
1) The black 4s3p and 4s4p battery appear to be the same size. What is the external dimension?
2) What's the difference between the $160 and $270 4s3p batteries? Asides from the external color and the terminal posts.
3) What is the actual tested (not theoretical) 5 seconds maximum current for the 4s3p packs?
4) What is the lowest pack voltage during the above 5 seconds maximum draw?
5) I see the balance leads for the less expensive pack. Does the more expensive one have balance leads too?

 

[Tommy L]

Thanks for the info.

Still curious:
1) The black 4s3p and 4s4p battery appear to be the same size. What is the external dimension? 6"L x 3-15/16W x 3-13/16H
2) What's the difference between the $160 and $270 4s3p batteries? Asides from the external color and the terminal posts "A" grade vs "B" grade cells, also, the more expensive one have a built in bleed board.
3) What is the actual tested (not theoretical) 5 seconds maximum current for the 4s3p packs?The only test that I've done is on my 1985 Honda VT1100C and starts it up and spins that motor/starter quick Also, I've done long continuous load test to 7C and cells remain above 3v
4) What is the lowest pack voltage during the above 5 seconds maximum draw?No data
5) I see the balance leads for the less expensive pack. Does the more expensive one have balance leads too?No, it's a sealed box

 

[SamTexas]

Thanks. Are you still willing to answer more questions?

 

[Trailblazer]

Thanks. Are you still willing to answer more questions?

Please don't hijack my thread!

 

[dnmun]

why do you think you have to use two batteries? do you know about wattmeters and how to keep track of the current and measure the total amount of charge consumed?

if he uses a wattmeter then you should be able to plan for a safe return by not exceeding the range on his outbound leg. then on top of it we can fix it up so he can stop somewhere and run an extension cord to an AC outlet and charge again, anywhere.

i like li ping too, and jimmyD makes first rate battery packs too, which would work well on the trike.

the cheapest guy on ebay making the pouch packs like ping is sun-thing28 guy and he sells a 48V20Ah pack like ping does for $549 delivered by DHL airfreight. we have had several people buy them now. he is new.

 

[Trailblazer]

But I've been a Ping fanboy since a few months after he started selling. Boy, was sending that cash to china scary then, in 2008. I'd say go ping myself, since I have been so happy with them. I've used up two now, and only not buying another because I had only $250 to spend this year.

30 ah of ping. 40 is a LOT, he may not realize that he really will get double the range per ah from lithium vs lead.

Thanks for your reply, Dogman! Yeah, he needs more than double the range that he has on the SLA's. He's just been taking shorter rides b/c he didn't know anything else was available battery-wise. And we're increasing AH (12 SLA to 20 LiFePo4) at the same time. So he'll have triple+ the range. I know it sounds like a lot, and it does to me as well, but he can't get stuck out there, period.

48v 20 ah A123 lifepo4 from EM3 ev. Also a very ES trusted vendor, and the A123 cells are the best lifepo4 currently available.

One from column A and one from column B? One ping one A123? One A123 one Electricrider? One Ping, and dip a toe into RC lipo? A VERY small lipo pack can run the trike. 5 ah of 44v should take him 5 or more miles, and weigh only 7 pounds. Perfect for a reserve tank.

EM3-I'm probably going to order a MAC from him for myself. Oops, hijacking my own thread.

OK, now I'm confused. Ping doesn't use A123 cells? I thought he did! What does he use?

Like the idea of LiPo for myself, I can't do that for him. He can't remember stuff very well and has a hard time making new memories (the Memento guy, kinda). So no LiPo for him. I'll email electricrider and see what cells he uses.

 

[Trailblazer]

I do like pings bms. A row of lights tells the user that the pack definitely got all the cells fully charged, or not. If the worst bms defect happens, where the bms won't stop discharging a cell, the light stays lit, and you know you'd better un plug the thing NOW.

One A123 primary, one ER secondary? Ping, EM3 ev, or electricrider, I'd be adding a set of jst balance plugs to the pack. Then you can quickly check and or adjust voltages on any cell in the pack. Then you don't need the blinky lights on the bms. With the extra plugs, you can run cell level voltage displays like cellog 8's.

Yeah, lights on the BMS would be good for my friend with MS. Easy to understand.

Can you point me toward the JST Balance Plugs? I understand the concept of access to each cell for troubleshooting voltage/cell problems. I agree, absolutely necessary for protecting quite substantial investment. Thanks for the suggestion!

 

[Tommy L]

Thanks. Are you still willing to answer more questions?

PM sent....

Tommy L sends..... (Hijack was not my intent)

 

[Trailblazer]

PM sent....

Tommy L sends..... (Hijack was not my intent)

I know. This forum is full of really great folks who are so helpful. I wasn't worried. Just wanted to stay on track.

Thanks for understanding!

 

[Tommy L]

If your not really sure of what you need, then just get a Complete kit from one of the recommended vendors.

I don't mind piecing things together and trying different controllers and learning how stuff works. Been doing that
since I was 4 years old. lol so like 46 years now! lol

I have 2 Bionx systems. Plug and Play. Easy to look after my Wife's ride.
My Bionx battery went out and now I've built a couple of 12s packs from Headways.
I just bought a BMS for it, and I should be plug and play again.

As for my other ride, my controller will handle up to 150v so I play around with different pack voltages
between 76.8 and 128v nominal. My charge solution for that is non-existent. lol I break the packs into 12s and charge them.
Yeah, it's a pain, but that's what we do here :wink:

Make your life enjoyable and get as Plug and Play as you can

Tommy L sends....

 

[FfredDRredD]

Hello TB, i did'nt have the benefit of ES when i started my bike project, i'm sure i would have made the same choices because its what i thought i needed. they may have done well with others but i would'nt be able to recommend electricrider from my experience-steve

 

[dnmun]

you never explained why you have to use two batteries. electricrider got a bad rap before when they had a bad lot of batteries and lost a lotta money on them. i expect these will have been vetted. sun-thing guy makes essentially the same pack as ping, just 25% less cost. ping has been around longer and people are biased towards him because he has always provided replacement parts. sun-thing28 guy is new and ebay bounded.

 

[Trailblazer]

you never explained why you have to use two batteries. sun-thing28 guy is new and ebay bounded.

Have to use two batteries b/c my friend with MS can't remember at what voltage to turn around. I'll get him a cycle analyst and setup the LVC to protect the batteries, so when that cuts out, then he'll just switch to his backup pack turn around and come home. With brain disease, you can never tell when you're going to forget something really important, like how many AH battery pack you have or what voltage is halfway. I have to make everything really, really easy and bulletproof (solid rubber tires).

Thanks for all your great input, guys! I didn't mention, he already has a front hub motor, controller and throttle. We're just looking to upgrade his batteries to something that will last for years (with care) and will get him farther (2x the distance of SLA/AH).

Fred, I can't imagine doing an EV without ES!

 

[dnmun]

MS is not a brain disease. it is an autoimmune attack on the myelin sheath around the nerve. i have friend here who has progressive degenerative and has been using several products he has found to help prevent the progression. he is working on a research paper to document his case and the treatment. cannabis has been effective for decades but now he uses a lotta stuff including L-dopa and loperamide. i think that is the spelling.

you do not need a separate battery. the wattmeter will tell you exactly how much charge is used and how much is left so he can turn around or charge up when he gets to that point. there is no need to have a separate battery.

you do not have to worry about the LVC if you have a BMS on the battery. there is no need to monitor the cell level voltages on all the cells constantly. the BMS does all of that.

you just need a wattmeter and some knowledge of how a lifepo4 pack works.

 

[dogman dan]

Nothing wrong with that plan, even for extremely smart folks with no problems. It's beautifully KISS which is still good for smart people. Nothing wrong with just reading the CA and going, 18 ah gone, time to turn around either. You could just have ping make you a 40 ah pack. I used the same method, before I had a wattmeter. I had two pings, and I rode one outbound, then the other back. When the bms shut off the pack, I swapped and came back.

Seriously, I think you only need one 48v 30 ah pack or two 15's. It will be a ton of range. like 60 miles worth at 18 mph. Easy to track the Ah used with the CA and know when to turn back if you just get a 30. One advantage to two 15 ah packs is you have two chargers, so you charge twice as fast as with one.

Sorry I can't just say, do this, it's the only way. There is some good choices out there, including some of the bargain vendors on ebay. One to stay away from, V power hong kong.

Another good choice might be the Limn packs from Chicago electric bikes, or E-bike kit. Or the Ezee batteries from Grin. Just to name a few

 

[MD.]

I had a very good experience with electric rider on a charger and bms. The charger is still working strong and so is the bms. I had some questions on how to wire the bms properly. They responded to all my emails and then asked me to call to speak to their tech. I called and he answered all my questions and was very helpful. I would gladly order from them again.