Etrike Touring

[dogman dan]

Just guessing at your wh/mi, based on my wh/mi with 200 pounds less.

I was able to average 25 wh/mi easy. Traveling very slow to do that. I'd say figure on being able to get 35wh/mi on moderate grades of rolling hills. Stuff generally below 8% grades. 2100 wh to go 60 miles. Getting it below 20wh/mi requires a tailwind, or a long low grade downhill.

On a real climb, I get closer to 50 wh/mi despite coasting down the hills. This is serious mountains, 8-13% grades, no flat rides just straight up and straight down for miles. The bike can grind up the grades and keep up the speed, but it takes all 2000w to do it.

I would say that 2000wh should still be plenty, if you can get a charge 30 miles from the top of the big passes you will cross.

Map my ride is a good site for looking at grades of roads. But you have to map only a mile or two at a time to get a really good picture of max grades. Short but steep grades will map out as less on a 30 mile long map.

 

[dogman dan]

FWIW, you got me going looking at generators. The generac 2000 on amazon seems to have a string of horrible reviews. Some of course written by morons, but,,,

The 800 w unit seems to weigh 29 pounds, not 21. At 21 pounds that was getting me interested.

The Honda EU 1000, a truly good generator is also 29 pounds, but lots more money.

The really cheap 800w from Harbor Freight is 29 pounds. At $129, might work if there are HF locations along the way, and you buy the warrantee.

Problem is, 29 pounds is the same as 60-80 mile range in lifepo4. But that much battery is not 2-300 bucks.

 

[m4s73r]

Problem is, 29 pounds is the same as 60-80 mile range in lifepo4. But that much battery is not 2-300 bucks.

If only it was.
I have come across mapmyride before. Good site. Its interesting that it may be more difficult to get around here in Saint Joseph then actually biking across the rockies. Missouri has no sense when it came to roads. But we have a huge bluffs, cliffs that over look the missouri river.

 

[LockH]

Of course, were I on the road going anywhere L/D now, I might be pedaling something *quite* "different":
View attachment Solar.bmp

 

[dogman dan]

Buy two of those, then send me one.

I think you are right, those bluffs will be steeper than many roads, and you are headed for the easy way through the rockies. But here where roads are quite steep, they still rarely exceed 10%.

The issue is, if the pass is 10 miles long, and 10% means getting 50 wh/mi. all of a sudden 1000 wh only takes you 20 miles instead of 40. This gets sticky if there is also 40 miles of riding to the start of the 10 mile grade. Gotta make the top, to get that coast down the other side.

Map my ride will help you get a handle on what you need to make the next plug over the longer passes. Short tests on similar grades can get you wh/mi numbers, while loaded, for various % grades. Then just do the math.

For me the numbers can be pretty easy math, up a steep hill, I get half the range of rolling hills of lesser grade.

 

[m4s73r]

Thats funky looking Lock. And im not sure something like that is more for us "fluffy" people. If i was 5'4" and weighed 120 lbs SOLD. lol.

I agree Dogman. However I am not apposed to spinning up those hills. I think a lot of our efficiency will come with proper gearing. I have been reading the posts on hubs, gearing, with mid drives and the wear and tear it puts on it. It seems like 90% of issues come when people try and shift with heavy loads on the drive train. Sounds like the bike should be treated like a manual car. I will be good with this lol.

So to change gears here a bit (pun intended), I have been going back and forth between the Bafang and the cyclone. I just dont have the funds to do both. So im going to have to stick with one. Being on a recumbent and loosing the front 3 gears may be hard on me and the drive line.

However another user (erider) is selling 130 bcd adapters for the Bafang. Im thinking about this gear set up.

12-34 9spd
Upgrade Idler pully
24" Rear Wheel w Disk Brake
60T on front chainring w/ 155mm cranks

Hub
3speed S-Archer CS-Rk3 0.75 (45T) /1.0(60t) /1.33 (80T) I hope these numbers are correct. Running through Sheldons calculator.
Or go with a 56t Front CR 0.75 (42T) /1.0(56t) /1.33 (75T)

 

[LockH]

"Buy two of those, then send me one."

Hehe... So, watts maybe wrong with that pic/vehicle?

So maybe here's a clue. Late 2010, the record for organic PV cells were these:


Konarcha's cells ran only about 10% solar conversion. Seen here:
http://www.gizmag.com/world-record-efficiency-for-organic-photovoltaic-solar-cells/17186/

So a sailor might plaster a sail with these, such that the sail can be "sheeted" in and out. Maybe add bamboo slats as sail batten/stiffners as well. The idea is that the sail does at least double-duty. PV as maybe batt re-charge (or direct motor drive), plus any wind not "on the nose" generating forward motion by "triming" the sail angle, plus "flatening" or giving the sail (leading "edge" section) more "pocket" to cause the air flow across the sail/surface to bend more.

PV cells would work to produce electric energy EVen when vehicle is at rest.

Good so far?

 

[m4s73r]

It is a interesting thought. However the sail is throwing me. the sail would move in accordance with the wind and the user. Now this is fine, but your adding in the third variable, the sun. So now we have to deal with shade. I think at the 8.4% efficiency you would need a very large sail. Now as the tech gets better we could start seeing this as a fabric. Could be interesting.

 

[LockH]

"So now we have to deal with shade."

Hehe... One nice thing maybe about the "open road". Not so many buildings, etc so close to the road to cover late morning/noon/afternoon sunlight. Even many trees are "cut back" to leave wide "shoulders", esp. if one is headed west-bound.

A "very large" sail? Perhaps, but the vehicle body itself may have PV stuff on its surface too. And *worst case*, the PV stuff may help to *extend range* between plugins, including time spent stopped for a meal, etc. I have seen bike carts with PV panels on top too.

 

[m4s73r]

You could do a skin on frame velo with it. Depending on its flexibility it may be more suited to a permanent shell vs a rain cover.

 

[LockH]

You could do a skin on frame velo with it. Depending on its flexibility it may be more suited to a permanent shell vs a rain cover.

Yah. I am quite used to sailing using stiff plastic (foam core) "shells" for hulls, but also soft (and not-so-soft cloth) stretched fairly taught eg using a zipper, snaps, a light-weight pole or poles, laces... Commonly termed a "trampoline". In the case of the "tramp", the "cloth" was "open" enough to permit air/wind to blow through it (eg when "flying" one hull in the air, above the fluid - "water"). Other boats, their "tramps" were relatively impermeable to air/wind AND water.

 

[dogman dan]

Maybe by the end of the trip, you will fit in one of those solar cars.

Backing up a bit, I seriously think one typically 1000w max motor is going to fry hauling 600pounds up those hills.

But I could be wrong, if you can gear low enough. I just have no idea how low you need. It won't cost all that much to go with a dual motor setup, using a planetary gear hubmotor on your rear wheel. The hubbie would operate only when you needed more grunt to ascent the steeper hills. Even if the chain drive will do it, you may want to use two motors to get up the longer hills, so that neither motor gets the least bit hot.

Melt one down in Yellowstone, and it will be a very long pedal with a 600 pound bike. This is the issue that had me hunting down an old oversized 25 pound hubmtor that is no longer made for my cargo bike.

 

[LockH]

"Maybe by the end of the trip, you will fit in one of those solar cars."

Hehe... Maybe think if it as a "solar car", but tricycle style, and minimizing consumption of a tiny amount of energy sucked out of our natural environment to maximize "returns" aka "ROI", plus doing "stuff" waaay cheaper.

 

[dogman dan]

I guess it's technically a velomobile. But spelling car is more my ability level.

 

[m4s73r]

Maybe by the end of the trip, you will fit in one of those solar cars.

Backing up a bit, I seriously think one typically 1000w max motor is going to fry hauling 600pounds up those hills.

But I could be wrong, if you can gear low enough. I just have no idea how low you need. It won't cost all that much to go with a dual motor setup, using a planetary gear hubmotor on your rear wheel. The hubbie would operate only when you needed more grunt to ascent the steeper hills. Even if the chain drive will do it, you may want to use two motors to get up the longer hills, so that neither motor gets the least bit hot.

Melt one down in Yellowstone, and it will be a very long pedal with a 600 pound bike. This is the issue that had me hunting down an old over sized 25 pound hubmtor that is no longer made for my cargo bike.

I think it will work. A lot of the users over on the Bafang thread are using them for mountain biking. and mid drives are all about the gearing. I just need to figure mine out and as long as i keep the motor in its "happy" place it shouldn't be a issue. However a watts up meter will defiantly be necessary to manage the motor and change gears if i need to

while running errands today I kept this in the back of my head and I found a 7% grade hill that's almost 2 miles long. Make that my training hill.
I also thought about what you said in gearing and adjusted my gearing. with 48t chain wheel and the SA 3speed hub i can reduce my gearing so my hill gear would be a 36t chain wheel and 34t sprocket. that should crawl me up any hill with little motor assist.

 

[dogman dan]

It will help a ton to gear down. I just don't know, haven't heard from others, how it will work when climbing for an hour or more, pulling 600 pounds.

Test like hell fully loaded before the trip is the thing.

 

[m4s73r]

Well Cellman just updated his website. I may be able to afford a mac motor and bafang together. And it wouldnt cost much more as i wont have a IGH. This is as long as cellman can program the new motors when he gets them in. maybe i should go back and look at a cromotor build.

 

[Kirk]

I've done more less coast to coast round trip twice. Lakewood WA to Quantico, VA and back on a trike and Portland, OR to D.C. and back on a Velomobile (Pterovelo). No dog though and I got rid of the trailer for the run back from Quantico.

This is what the trike looks like today. Everything can be charged, packed and be made road ready in 3 days. Weighs in at 185 lbs. fully packed. Call it 200, cause there is always something. As she sits just under 100 lbs. For those that are curious its still my daily driver, grocery getter, errand runner and all around goof off machine. My 20 year old Jag XJ-40 has less then 75k on it.

The Velo is a much nicer ride and takes a lot less power to put it down the road. It has an old GM Pro 901 motor with a 60V 30Ah Ping battery and a 18 FET Lyens controller. All up for touring around 385 lbs. Cruise at 30 mph, using around 12Wh/Mi. Top speed on the flats around 57 mph. 80 mph coming down Lolo Pass. :wink: My next one is going to be a Fiester WAW. As soon as I find 12 grand just lying around.

I wish that I had a decent pic of Sylvia's mid drive setup on her trike. I like my big assed C'lyte hub motor but it can burn a lot of juice in a hurry up a grade if yer hammering it for some reason. Almost anyone will loan you a plug for some juice. Plug it in at McDonald's for an hour at lunch time. There is one every 55 miles in the US.
Riding East to West the passes, like Lolo and McDonald's are steeper but not as long. Once on top of Lolo Pass its downhill all the way to Lewiston ID. Which is the route I prefer. Having to climb out of the Spokane Valley, then over Snoqualimie Pass to Seattle is a major pain. Much nicer going thru the Colombia Gorge and up to Seattle that way. There is no where to score power between Missoula Mt and Lewiston, ID or Missoula MT to Cor D'Alene ID. Both ways are long and really need to be done in one day. Plug to plug, Lewiston, ID to Missoula, MT is 142 miles. Its a loooonnnng downhill from the top of Lolo to Lewiston though. About 1/3 of the trip is getting to the top of the pass. The rest is down to Lewiston. Which is why I prefer the hub motor over a mid drive. Regen can be a wonderful thing. Sylvia has circumnavigated the lower 48 states with her mid drive though. As always YMMV.

Send a PM if you want to discuss the route or your ideas for your trike. Like, why did you pick the KMX? Instead of an ICE or Catrike. The KMX has never struck me as a reliable touring machine. Never seen one on the road or at a TOT. So I'm curious about the choice. I wouldn't bother with a generator. Only place you might have power access problems, would be over the Rockies or Bitterroot mountains. Anyway, get in touch and lets talk about it.

 

[m4s73r]

Weight was my reason for the kmx. Id love an expedition. but the weight limit is 275. I weight 290. then add pack and batteries. I was going to put a WGX Tinted Fairing on it. Use that as a frame for a nylon shell that would hook around the back of the seat.

 

[GiantEV]

I have a HS3548 laced to a 20" rim from ebikes.ca. It has a Pirelli moped tire on it, and I've installed this on my TerraTrike Cruiser.

TIRES:
I live in Albuquerque, which has some very steep hills and some nasty thorns that have 1/4 inch needles. After messing with regular tubes, the Pirelli has been such a night and day difference. The tire keeps the same air pressure for months, and even after running over glass and metal objects in the road (we have bike lanes here but they get filled with all the debris from the road) they still haven't punctured or been cut. I have 20" tires on all 3 wheels, but only the rear wheel is running the Pirelli. I think the rims on the front tires may be too thin for the moped tire, so I'm planning on buying wider rims for the front wheels and running either Pirelli or Shinko tires (which are also a moped tire that I'm running on my 20" front wheel of my A2B metro). The Shinko tires are also DOT rated and seem to be very high quality as well. Plus they are a lot cheaper than the Pirelli tires.

MOTOR:
I'm running a HS3548, I'm a big guy, and I tow a trailer I built that my wife rides, which also has pedals so she can contribute to the ride. We have some very steep hills here (I live in the Rocky Mountains), and the 3548 has been able to keep up pretty well. If I was going on a longer trip, I would buy a Crown TC-80 or TC-100 and lace it to a 20" rim that can handle the Pirelli moped tire. The problem with the Cromotor is that it may not fit in the dropouts without stretching, and I personally wouldn't want to ride across the country on a frame that I've stretched out. These Crown motors from ebikes.ca come with a temp sensor that plugs into a Cycle Analyst. This is great because if the motor becomes overheated on the hills the CA will automagically back off power so you don't burn out your motor. With this safety feature you might even be fine with a 3548 motor, but the Crown motor would give you more reliability that comes with a larger motor. Either way, put a temp sensor in the motor if you don't buy one from ebikes.ca that already has one installed. The mid-drive setups are interesting, but on a cross-country trip I'd prefer the simplicity of a DD hub motor.

COMPUTER:
I have the HobbyKing version of the WattsUp meter that cost $19, but just recently switched over to the CAv3. The CA is such a huge improvement over any other type of meter because of its ability to limit your power to a certain wattage or even limit your speed. You can also set cruise control on there and monitor the temperature, as I mentioned above. The only regret I have is not buying a CA earlier.

BATTERY:
I am running 48V 24Ah of Nanotech Lipos. I charge with a Thunder 1220. This lets me keep my batteries wired up together so that when I charge I can charge at 12S and use one charger, one power supply, which means only one plug. The lipos are nice because they are cheap and relatively easy to buy from HobbyKing. I am fairly pleased with this setup, but I've been considering cellman (em3ev) batteries for one of my other bikes. The cellman batteries are nice because they're not lipo, so have a safer chemistry, and they come with a good BMS built into them. If you're going to have a trailer, I'd buy as much battery as you can afford. Two 48V 20Ah packs should be fine, but a third wouldn't be bad loaded at the bottom of your trailer. 48V should work well for you, since this will give you a top speed close to 30mph, which you won't be doing if you are trying to get good range out of each charge.

TERRAIN/POWER USAGE:
Your power usage really goes up when you start going uphill. I cruise at around 150 watts on the flat at 10mph towing the trailer. When I go up a hill it can spike up to 1400W on the really steep parts. Like dogman said, you'll reap the rewards on the way down the other side of the hill/mountain, and will give your motor a chance to cool off. Again, I'd get a CA3 and install a temp sensor in whatever motor you buy so you don't get anywhere near damaging your motor. Also, as your speed increases so does your power usage. When you ride around testing your rig you can get a better feel for the speed you are comfortable with.

GEARING:
I have 3 speeds on the front and I think 7 on the rear. I honestly never shift into a different gear since I maintain the same speed the whole time. The motor helps me get started, so I don't need to start out in a different gear than I use when cruising. Getting everything tuned properly and clean will help greatly with reliability... cleanliness and proper tuning have kept me from having many issues even with cheaper derailleurs.

TRIKE:
I've seen lots of KMX builds on here. I bought the TerraTrike because I got a really good deal on it, but I'm happy with it so far. It even has enough room for me to install my battery pack behind the seat, right up against the frame, so the balance is great. I also added a rear rack that I use for my waterproof Ortlieb panniers. These things are great and are easy to remove from the bike, yet stay on when you want them to. I'd say go try out some different trikes to see what feels comfortable to you, as well as keeping in mind compatibility with your build plans.

I've driven from Albuquerque to Kansas City many times and have spent lots of time in KC. It's a nice city, and your northerly route to Seattle should make for a fun trip.

 

[LockH]

"... a trailer I built that my wife rides"

Pic please Mister Giant (a giant of few words, here on the ES Alt. Planet)!

 

[ddk]

adding my 2 cents
I'm a big fan of two motors for touring, although I've done most my ebike touring with a single-motor setup and I pedaled more than I used the motor (back in the day)
After futzing around with dual motors, derailleurs and Nuvinci transmissions, I'm absolutely convinced you can simply use single speed gearing with a dual motor setup.
...It's how I ride locally. (hills included free of charge)
I found I almost never changed the gear ratio unless I was climbing +15% grades.

-a note about road grades

In the usa:
You'd be hard pressed to find a federal numbered highway with 15% grades (I've never found one on a bike/trike/car/or motorhome) when even 10% grades are not only rare, but usually avoided using alternate routes. I believe I've traveled 90% of the numbered highways west of the Mississippi, 50% east of.
I prefer two lane highways esp. on a bike.
I spent many hours/days riding two-lane highways never seeing another vehicle, although this isn't true for all two-lane highways (see: California)

-about my "ride"-
On my touring trike the DIY "through the gears" Bafang 250W motor is normally geared* for 15mph using 36V (41.5V H), where the front Magic Pie hubmotor is capable of 30 running 48V (58V H). (programmed to 20mph, however) My pedal gearing is set for 60RPM @ 20 mph. I don't add a lot of power to the system. The motors do all the work.
Previous to the Magic Pie I used a MUXUS 350W geared-hub motor at 36V which was just as strong and just as fast as the Pie, but I wanted regen braking for those long downhill runs.
I can carry over 4kW of battery with a weight of 500 pounds sans camping gear. (i Add half the weight cause old/fat guy) Normally I carry 2kW atjust less than 450 pounds of trike and me. 2kW takes me 50 miles on the worst days/ways without completely draining the batteries. Headwinds and mountain climbs gets the batteries down to 50% discharged. (the maximum I allow my batteries to be discharged)
-no mater where I ride I carry a full set of tools, spare tubes,full-sized air pump and a (tiny) folding stool (about 20 pounds of stuff)
- Funni enuff - the rear motor adds significant power to the front motor even when moving over 15mph. Using Both Motors climbing a 10% grade is about the same stress as running one motor on the flat i.e they don't get overly hot when climbing stiff grades.
The other advantage to two motors over one is a safety redundancy -when something breaks you can usually limp along if you have to.

*The gear adjuster for the Nuvinci broke and I haven't bothered to fix or replace it

 

[m4s73r]

Thanks for sharing your experience DDK. Cool to see another approach. Using 2 cheaper motors then 1 more expensive one. I like it.
I have been using the sim over on ebikes.ca. What maximum grade would i need to prepare for?
Over the last couple of days I have been considering a geared motor mid drive. The guy over at urbancommuterstore.com has a mid drive set up for cargo bikes using a 10t mac motor for hauling cargo around town and up trails. Im considering that (braket set up for 500 from him and a 6t motor from cellman) with a duel drive. The trike im building wont be just for touring.

You never said what kind of trike you ride. Is all this gear on the trike? trailer? pic?
Thats interesting on the weight/watt you carry. what type of battery are you using? are you running with a fairing or some aero? and 4kw is like 80ah of battery. Im not even sure where on the trike i would put 4 20ah batteries.

which Nuvinci model was it that broke?

 

[dogman dan]

I'd still be inclined to use the 10t mac, even with a stokemonkey type setup. a 6t will just require bigger gears to get the same rpms, rpm that won't smoke the motor. The 6t will have to spin faster to stay cool. It's a serious fast motor.

Two motors works good, I was headed that way myself, then lucked into getting a good used 5304. Either way, if you have 2000w when you need it, you won't do much downshifting. My bike stays in the top 2-3 gears.

Your route may not even have much road above 8% grade. We have some oddball steep paved roads in this part of the rockies, but 8% is typical even for roads to ski areas.

But 8% grade for miles and miles, will kill a single smaller motor hauling 600 pounds. Looking at some of the new bottom bracket drives has me interested in dual motors. One through the chain, the other a 10t Mac in the rear wheel. Or a dd if regen is desired.

 

[m4s73r]

Can someone explain to me why Ebike.ca 48v 20ah battery is $1300? Is their a lap dance with them? is it a msrp thing? I find it weird that the spot that most people go for ebike stuff is raping people for batteries. They just seem to be more expensive then EVERYONE else on just about EVERYTHING. What am i missing here?