Forks over Knives <health>

Atkins ( and the low carb case ) actually has 150 years of valid research under the belt. Low carb diets used to be the standard of care for type 2 diabetes until we figured out how to produce insulin. You can find 'diabetic cookbooks' from the 1800's that basically end up describing a low carb diet.
I can show you a variety of papers on this if you are feeling open minded ( doesn't sound like you are, you probably just think it's unscientific because you heard something else and prefer to believe it ).

This lady has been part of a group that's been fighting the federal government dietary policy for decades:

[youtube]fvKdYUCUca8[/youtube]

It's actually low fat diets and the demonization of saturated fat and cholesterol that's new. Ancel Keys' scientific fraud and George McGovern began this in the 1950's, shifting our agricultural policies towards pushing for a high sugar, high grain diet... which is ideal for livestock, but not us..
The government for 6 decades has actually been on vegan and vegetarian's sides this whole time.

Agriculture in this country is completely messed up for both plant and meat eaters. If it's not pesticides and herbicides you have to worry about, it's factory farming and hormones you gotta worry about. The entire system is screwed, but that's another discussion for another time.

tomjasz said:
WHOA! Accepting my government hasn't a vested interest in supporting conventional ag? Nope. I also have to look at the studies and see where they are funded. Atkins and science in the same sentence? Nah! Let's look at who serves on the Ag committees and heads the Dept. of Ag. Stuffed with former Monsanto shills.
 
ambroseliao said:
tomjasz said:
neptronix said:
I'd like to counter that one with an interview from the biggest critic of plant-based diets in the world ( who is a former vegan )

Agreed. She also looks as if she's terribly unhealthy. Ashen, dark circles around her eyes, stained teeth... Also, the number of wild statements without any proof are astonishing. WOW indeed!

You're talking about the former vegan, right? if you would have read her book, she'd have explained what she was talking about in depth. I researched her claims and found them to be correct, but she could do a better job talking about science instead of jabbering away, for sure.

Lierre Kieth was vegan for 20 years ( starting at an early age ) and stuck to it despite it damaging her body to an extreme. She has recovered from some of it's effects, but still suffers permanent thyroid issues ( hashimoto's ) that developed as a result. That's why she looks the way she does.

This is a later interview. Her appearance is much better these days.

[youtube]WemanmrAYvg[/youtube]

She talks about the damage done in this video, early on.
 
Agriculture in this country is completely messed up for both plant and meat eaters. If it's not pesticides and herbicides you have to worry about, it's factory farming and hormones you gotta worry about.

And Gmo's, look@ 'according to monsanto' or 'omg gmo'.

My only point on the diet in general is to compare health and diet across cultures, then adopt the best 'diet' for yourself, after sufficiently educating yourself.

I prefer to refer to an entire cultures' diet, such as eastern or mediteranian, because I believe it's a better scope to start with than to point to atkins or whatever.

The main statement imo is The american culture has a shit diet, and they should know it, and why, yes?
 
I do absolutely think it's possible to maintain a diet of just plants, and I believe it would be healthier also.

That said, I may have red meat and/or eggs once a week, but usually eat some fish or turkey in my sandwiches or stir fry. It's a fun challenge to tip the balance towards a fork from a knife. Also, as a carb snack along with veggies or fruit, the plain shredded whole wheat squares are very good, especially dipped in hummus. But that's just me.

BTW everyone, thanks for the interest in this topic! A great one imo.
 
nutspecial said:
That said, I may have red meat and/or eggs once a week, but usually eat some fish or turkey in my sandwiches or stir fry. It's a fun challenge to tip the balance towards a fork from a knife. Also, as a carb snack along with veggies or fruit, the plain shredded whole wheat squares are very good, especially dipped in hummus. But that's just me.

You can do that, just don't replace good sources of saturated fat, protein, and cholesterol with carbohydrates.
Otherwise you will end up like me, running in circles trying to figure out why i felt so bad.

Aim towards a Mediterranean diet if you want to go that way. Even Dr. Greger ( hardcore vegan ) has grudgingly admitted that the med. diet is the best one in the world. ( but also one of the most expensive ), or head in the paleo direction.

Even a pure plant eater ( vegan ) in the know would tell you that eating carbohydrates from grains, refined sugars, and whatnot is really bad for you. Vegans who do that have a tendency to stay fat and sick just like everyone else. My wife, who is from Portland, Ore. was once friends with several fat and cranky vegans somehow.. they were of course, eating vegan junk food ( grains, sugars ) and avoiding whole, unprocessed foods.
 
Agreed!

A balance, that is all diet really is.


On a divergent thought- I want to do a survivalist diet sometime, literally until I get bored with it.
Eat whatever I can get from a couple acres of land. Like worms, leaves, berries lol. Until I fashion traps or weapons to get animals and fish, and raise nut trees etc. Hehe, I'm actually serious, but I'm not entirely sure why.
 
neptronix said:
This is a later interview. Her appearance is much better these days.

[youtube]WemanmrAYvg[/youtube]

She talks about the damage done in this video, early on.

Thanks Neptronix for the video. She points to a couple of resource which I'd never heard of Weston A Price and Wild Eating. She also points out the problem with modern farming which I had not heard before either.
 
ambroseliao said:
Thanks Neptronix for the video. She points to a couple of resource which I'd never heard of Weston A Price and Wild Eating. She also points out the problem with modern farming which I had not heard before either.

You're welcome. Yeah, Weston Price produced a tome of information called 'nutrition and physical degeneration' in 1939, when the world was first beginning to really eat processed food. It's a very thick volume at 527 pages long. I read the book cover to cover. A short summary of it would be to say that missing nutrients and excess sugar is 100% to blame for all the birth defects and dental decay they were beginning to see back then ( 1937 )

He studied around 100 different societies - civilized and uncivilized.
One thing of note is that societies that were hunters and had vibrant health were mysterious to him, because they were getting all the nutrients they needed from animals, including massive doses of vitamin A and C. The secret was eating certain organs from the animal, something that most westerners will not bother to do today. Without organ meats, a meat-heavy diet is basically nutritionally deficient unless you make up for it with vegetable superfoods.

Check into the Weston Price foundation for some more info. They publish lots of interesting stuff ( which is always controversial! )

[youtube]OvQ5F6GCfgI[/youtube]

Another interesting research fork for you is the Pottenger's cats study. They gave 3 sets of cats progressively more processed food and watched what happened with each progressive generation of cat.
The results are very shocking.

On an ancedotal note, i posted this on FB long ago and two friends decided to feed their next cat a raw meat diet. Both cats are totally healthy and actually pretty damn 'buff'!

That raises the question though - what is our native diet? what is the most nutritious and biocompatible thing we can eat? well, Weston Price had a lot of answers in his book.
 
If you really want to be fat, sick, and nearly dead, just eat the typical American diet.

Start with some red meat, then deep fry some potatoes in corn oil or even lard. Wash it down with a 1000 calorie soda, if not an even larger one. Then for desert, fry some dough in more of that bad oil, and cover it with sugar.

Vegetables? ok, a scrap of pale lettuce, and a pickle on that burger.

So, no single one of those menu items is going to kill you. But combine them that way, and eat it every day, and it will. Like eat at McDonalds every day for a month. And it's got a lot to do with quantities as well. One 12 ounce coke a day is not so evil. But a 64 ounce one twice a day can ruin your liver and give you diabetes.

It's definitely all about finding out what your body works best with. For most, it will be the Mediterranean diet. But not for all. Getting on a particular diet for fad reasons and sticking with that decision is just dumb. Trying different diets and finding the one that suits you is smart.

In my case, I would never have guessed what my problem was, without the help of a Doctor in England. Dr Myhill. Her website has a ton of information about how certain diets make certain health problems worse. She is a proponent of the Paleo diet. But I never got the impression she thought it was for everybody, or for healthy people. It's for people with certain illnesses. Cancer patients dealing with chemo for one. I know a lady who's been on paleo something like 30 years. She got on it when she had cancer, and it still works well for her now. She doesn't eat a ton of red meat a day, she eats very sparingly. The paleo diet is not hog out on meat fat, if you do it right. She is not physically active, because she also had polio as a child and can only walk a very short bit per day.

Anyway, in my case, my encephalitis related fatigue set me up to have another common type of chronic fatigue. So the carbs were making me have a double dose of chronic fatigue. I felt a ton better the instant I got off the carbs. But that does not mean in any way you should get off the carbs. Just perhaps get off the American diet quantities of carbs. You don't need that bread with your potatoes, or that 64 ounce soda with your pound of French fries.

BALANCE. Find what works for your body.

Its not easy to do these more extreme diets right. Most people on paleo cheat plenty, and that bit of carbs they have keeps their psudo paleo diet in balance. I'd get incredibly sick from one piece of bread, so I had huge incentive to do it 100%. Though eating a lot of meat fat, I shed pounds at an incredible rate for the first 30 days. I had to have more fat, or starve. Of course, more of that fat should have been olive oil, and less of it lard. Into the second year of the diet, I did get the fat from lard much lower without starving. But it took time to figure it out.

BTW, in the last year my health really improved. This summer I feel better than I have in 4 years, almost back to normal the last 30 days. Last winter, I went back on a normal diet, and carbs don't poison me now that I have the strength to digest them. I put on 10 pounds by easter, but then got it back off this summer. I'd like to call my current diet Mediterranean, but there is no way Mexican food is a good diet. But most days I do cook right. Some meat, some fish, some grains, lots of veggies still, and as much olive oil as I can stand. Snacks are nuts, but now I do allow some chips and queso. but not every day.

The balance is eat healthy most days, but don't sit there pining away for a steak, a pizza, or a plate of enchiladas forever. The one thing I'd really like to eliminate forever is margarine. We use real butter for cooking. but to spread on a piece of bread the soft oleo is so convenient. And I'm not quite there to just put olive oil on the bread.

Lastly, the glyphosphate.

FWIW, glyphosphate is a funny chemical. Though it may be present in water or soil, a very tiny amount of clay can render it basically inert. It ties up into the cation exchange capacity of clays immediately. So it's present, but inert, can't chemically react. So stop worrying so much about drinking it. That does not mean the roundup that actually touches the corn, and gets into the corn is OK. Not at all! That's why I object to the roundup tolerant food plant breeding programs.

2-4D is nasty stuff, but it's being used mostly because roundup costs a bundle, and in home owner based products, the customer doesn't want weeds to take 2 weeks to die. So they mix in 2-4D or similar chemicals, essentially making the dumbshits buy cheap 2-4D for roundup prices. The 2-4D kills the weed, and the glyphosphate is wasted, BUT PROFITABLE.

The one comforting thing, 2-4D and similar chemicals are not very persistent. They break down fairly soon, but that does not mean they break down into shit that is safe to drink in high concentrations! Fortunately it's not usually in high concentrations, like it was in Nam. 2-4d doesn't kill grass, so that's why it's still used on grain crops.

We all know I'm a dummy, but my degree is in agriculture, so I did learn a bit more about what the ag chemicals do, and how. I'm not an expert, but I did have a commercial pesticide license at one point. So I had to study this some. I used to mix up 500 gallons of 2-4D daily. Never made me sick though, because I wore protective gear.
 
WHOA! Dog. There's lots of good science showing roundup is PERSISTENT. 3 years in some studies! Most commonly reported chemical poisoning among reports from home gardeners according to the State of California where it must be reported and data is gathered.

"The facts show otherwise. A report from The United States Environmental Protection Agency states that Glyphosate is 'extremely persistent under typical application conditions'. It is one of the most residual herbicides, with studies in Sweden showing that one application can last up to 3 years."

One third of farm pesticide poisoning reports come from Roundup. While I struggle with the concepts here, hundreds of hours on the microscope demonstrated the damaging affects of Roundup on soil biology. Something conventional ag and hort seldom considers. Canada also has some scary studies regarding it's persistence and damage. Monsanto has long called it impossible to die from but it has been used in Japan to commit suicide. If memory served 200ml was sufficient, but of course lots of things are poisonous and shouldn't be drunk and won't poison the earth at rates that might kill us.

Let's not underrate the effects of this weedkiller.

"Glyphosate is widely used in the mistaken belief that it is harmless, safe and readily breaks down leaving no residues. Consequently, it is sprayed in public areas while people are present and by operators without protective clothing. These people are exposed to the drift of this herbicide. The facts show that Glyphosate causes a range of health problems to humans, plants and animals, it causes environmental problems and that it is highly persistent. "

JOURNAL OF PESTICIDE REFORM, Fall 1998, Vol.18, No. 3.

Updated 01-02, Northwest Coalition Against Pesticides, Eugene, Oregon.

Lehmann V. and Pengue W. (2000), Herbicide Tolerant Soybean: Just another step in a technology treadmill? Biotechnology and Development Monitor. September 2000.

Nordstrom M. et al, (1998), "Occupational exposures, animal exposure, and smoking as risk factors for hairy cell leukaemia evaluated in a case-control study," BRITISH JOURNAL OF CANCER Vol. 77 (1998), pp 2048-2052.

Hardell L. and Eriksson M. (1999), "A Case-Control Study of Non-Hodgkin Lymphoma and exposure to Pesticides," CANCER Vol.85, No. 6 (March 15, 1999
 
Glyphosate can indeed hang out in soil for years, i saw multiple studies about it.
http://www.cornucopia.org/2013/06/weed-killer-glyphosate-found-in-human-urine-across-europe/

The amount found coming out of Europeans' urine was much higher than what is legally allowed in the drinking water in many of those countries.
http://www.foeeurope.org/sites/default/files/glyphosate_studyresults_june12.pdf

Given that a lot of European countries have banned gmos/glyphosate, or just use it much more sparingly than we do, imagine how much of this endocrine disruptor we have running through our systems here in the 'states.

'Moms across America' and 'Sustainable pulse' released this report:
http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.ne...milk_of_American_women_Draft6_.pdf?1396803706

One note about that report:

The initial testing that has been completed at Microbe Inotech Labs, St. Louis, Missouri, is not meant to be a full scientific study. Instead it was set up to inspire and initiate full peer-reviewed scientific studies on glyphosate, by regulatory bodies and independent scientists worldwide.
The initial testing was done using ELISA tests and due to a high minimum detection level in breast milk and urine, it is possible that even those samples which tested negative contained ‘worrying’ levels of glyphosate.
 
Did I say roundup breaks down fast? I did not.

I said it ties up in the cation exchange capacity of the soil, and becomes chemically inert. It's there, but so tightly bound to the clay it may as well not be there.

It may still be harmful if you do ingest it I don't know. Mostly, I don't include dirt in my diet. And it's just as big a worry in surface water as any chemical, PCB, PVC, antibiotics, the endless list. Personally I'm real glad my local water is deep wells, so I drink fossil water. Plenty to worry about, but roundup would be the least of them. The local surface water is loaded with lead, mercury, radium, etc. Mine puke.

But I worry about glyphosphate getting into the corn. There it will not be bound to clay, and you do eat it! But in the soil it's not like the old DDT and Chlordane, which remained very chemically active in soils and water, and animal tissues, and persisted for decades as well.

And yeah, you can poison yourself with it easy, by working with it daily on the farm, without wearing your protective gear. You see guys doing that with all kinds of chemicals all the time on the farm. You simply can't be getting any of the herbicides or pesticides on your bare skin, without poisoning yourself. But it sucks to wear a rubber suit and a gas mask in 100 degree weather.

Absolutely, it's way overused, and people are way to casual about where they put it. You think farmworkers are bad?, I see the neighbor out there applying it to his yard wearing shorts and flip flops. When I spray the weeds in my gravel driveway It's rubber boots and gloves, long sleeves and long pants.

No surprise to me people are pissing it. Look how they handle it. What scares me is the mixtures now so common, that are much easier to get dangerous exposure to, and then joe homeowner handles it just like the "he thinks it's safe" roundup.
 
I failed to resist...The world of pesticides and pesticide science has been my life and income for many decades. None of the confusion I suffer from, and you often clarified for me on this forum... but cation exchange has little to do with sequestering Roundup. Let's not mix good soil science with anecdotal or old data from Monsanto. The stuff is destructive. Period. Absolutely no reason for it's use in a well managed garden or farm. Period. I demonstrated that easily and successfully. Now if I could be as certain about ANYTHING eBike...
 
Thanks for all the info guys! It's great for us to discuss this stuff, and hopefully we all get stuff from the discussion, as well as any observers.

I think about levels of danger like this. (huge generality, but helpful).

The level of manipulation from natural, is directly comparable to the potential dangers.

Apply to anything, see if it fits. I used the logic for food, substances, and weapons, and it fits imo. It's not that anything is necessarily natural or unnatural, chemical/ synthetic, etc. Things are just at varying degrees of manipulation. I guess it helps me differentiate from crossbreeding and viral contamination, or piss/ash (ph altering) vs roundup.

[youtube]N6_DbVdVo-k[/youtube]
If anybody has any other docs on monsanto, please share em! Make sure you watch this one if you haven't^^

So many people are getting weird viral issues, and the whole food source is polluted with virally modified organisms. Most of the corn and soybeans, and most of the cattle eat them too. Coincidence?


Also/Somebody mentioned dirt being healthy somewhere, I think that is absolutely correct. It makes sense that 'grounding' (getting rid of charge in body) and even a little ingestion of nature at the microbial level is probably far better to health than relying too much on sanitizers and sterilization.
The problems with sterility is there is no good bacteria either, so the bad and theoretically viral get out of hand quickly. Just look at how raw vs sterile milk acts.
 
dogman dan said:
X
chronic fatigue, that was a result of a virus.
X
dogman dan said:
X
When I spray the weeds in my gravel driveway It's rubber boots and gloves, long sleeves and long pants.
X
Might want to rethink your battle with the weeds. Try a lawnmower, weed wacker, or hedge clipper? Weeds are easier to pull out after a rain. Live together peacefully with weeds. In the end you will be dead and the weeds will still be growing.
 
:roll: please don't post shit like that unless this is in 'other toxic discussions'..

..which i am now moving the thread to.
 
ok, moved back.
Yes, it was you :p
 
There may well be new info about glyphosphate I don't know about. Not the first or last time I've been wrong about something.

But compared to other herbicides I've handled professionally, I'll still take roundup. I remember one that worked really good on nut grass growing in the cracks of the sidewalks on campus. A few drops of that on your skin would kill you, according to the label. When that stuff was used up and we returned to roundup, it was quite a relief. I didn't like Paraquat or 2-4D at all either. Equally scary, the fungicides routinely used on the golf course I worked at. Compared to that shit, I still feel roundup is much less of a hazard. But it's misuse, can be just as dangerous as any chemical.

Paying attention to pesticide safety and using protective gear kept my exposure low through a lifetime, and I never got sick from using them. The chronic fatigue was definitely viral, but in the process of diagnosis, I sure did wonder if I'd somehow poisoned myself. Happily, I wasn't getting poisoned by the wife. :lol: "Here's your sweet (antifreeze) tea honey, drink up." She's a professional chemist, If she wanted me dead, I'd be dead.

Weeds are easy to pull after a rain. LOL. I do mow regularly, but the goathead root is impossible to pull usually, and since it grows less than a half inch tall, mowing it is out. String trimmers could throw gravel through the neighbors windows. I could put down a soil sterilant on my driveway, but I choose a safer choice, pure glyphosphate. None of those crappy mixtures for me.
 
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