GNG, 1000W 48V BB-drive, $400

goodies.jpg


Sorry I've been quiet for so long. I've actually been really busy developing parts and struggling to get them into production. I've been waiting until I could do something beside bitch about setbacks. I'm finally getting some traction.

I just picked up the box above from my laser cutter. They have been swamped with huge orders and their lead time has gone from three days to three weeks. I even tried switching laser shops. The second shop I went to has still not produced anything after six weeks. I don't know how some people stay in business. Anyway, in the box above:

Adjustable sheets for 73mm BB. These are the strongest and best sheets I've designed to date. They come with a screw adjuster built in. Details and photos coming very soon. If you want a set PM me. These will sell out and it's three weeks plus to get more made.

Adjustable upper sheets for Gen 1.1 with enclosed jackshaft and mud guard. These sheets have a built in screw adjuster. The previous version without adjuster is still available.

Adjustable sheets for 68mm BB with built in screw adjuster. The adjusters are inside of the BB sheets and adjust through the bottom. They not only make adjusting the tension far easier, they help hold the adjustment in hard use.

Adapter plate to convert the 48 tooth 1/2" bicycle chain secondary sprocket to #219 kart sprocket and chain. A 75 tooth 219 sprocket is the same diameter as the stock 48 tooth.

I tried cutting a 3/4" to 11mm adapter out of 1/2" plate steel in order to run a 12 tooth #219 driver on the secondary side. The laser loses it's clean cut path over that thickness so this may not work. I will use 3/4" rod stock and bore an 11mm hole if I can't use laser. I'll need to purchase a keyway broach to cut the inside keyway.

This last week I started casting slip on 18 tooth 22mm wide driver pulleys in high impact industrial resin. I'm getting good clean results now and need to make more molds so I can produce these in sufficient numbers. The resin has a fairly slow cure time. I lost over a month trying to cast these in zinc with a guy that wasn't up to the job. I haven't given up on metal versions but resin is what we have for now. I'm going to work out an end retaining bolt to make sure the pulley stays in place.

Next week I'm going to make the mold to cast a 120 tooth 22mm wide driven pulley for the primary side. My prototype is set up to take the five bolt ACS Crossfire freewheel. This is a far stronger freewheel than the wimpy little one that comes with the GNG and easy to source in the US and elsewhere. Moving the freewheel to the driven primary makes it possible to run the small 12 tooth 219 sprocket on the secondary side. Overall reduction with my primary and secondary sets is 44:1, better than twice the GNG reduction. Pedaling cadence drops from 150 @ 48v to around 70 @ 48v. Obviously for you over volters this will be a great setup.

I also bought a Gen 2 with the planetary primary and designed adjustable sheets for the BB. I'll take the drawings in to the laser shop on Monday and should have these sheets available in about three weeks.

I'm going to be building my own bike now that I have the parts coming together. I'll start a thread for the build and show how all of this stuff goes together. I'm out of pocket on all of these parts so please do PM me if you're interested in any of them. More photos coming very soon.

Thanks,
Mike
 
speedmd said:
Hi Secret1511

I just did some test runs. I think the 9 fet conroller is holding up. It's getting hot but not that hot, that i can't put my hand on it. Engine the same story.
Click to expand...

How are things in the low lands. You have me wondering what top speed I might get with 18s 2p and my 12/72 - 53 /12 - 700x32 setup. May be worth getting a few more bricks and a new controller.
With 12s 2p /stock controller/ soldered shunt, it gets to 36-38 mph (57 - 60 KlH) pretty consistently on the flats when I try to max it out. Nothing ever feels too warm.
Click to expand...

Hi Speedmd! Everything is fine here. Very hot. We are not use to that here in the Netherlands. My top speed was 64kih.
I use the bb from the cyclone. I do not know how much teeth it has. In the rear i use a shimano xt 10 speed with a 11t.
I set it back to 48v because of the belt problem. With 48 volt and 50 a I do like 35 miles with one belt.

I have ordered the chain conversion, but I hope that lightningrods finds the solution for the slip over pulley. I rather have a nice strong belt than a chain. The police here don't know that there are high speed ebikes. There are a couple of us here in holland. So less noise the better.
 
LightningRods said:
goodies.jpg


Sorry I've been quiet for so long. I've actually been really busy developing parts and struggling to get them into production. I've been waiting until I could do something beside bitch about setbacks. I'm finally getting some traction.

I just picked up the box above from my laser cutter. They have been swamped with huge orders and their lead time has gone from three days to three weeks. I even tried switching laser shops. The second shop I went to has still not produced anything after six weeks. I don't know how some people stay in business. Anyway, in the box above:

Adjustable sheets for 73mm BB. These are the strongest and best sheets I've designed to date. They come with a screw adjuster built in. Details and photos coming very soon. If you want a set PM me. These will sell out and it's three weeks plus to get more made.

Adjustable upper sheets for Gen 1.1 with enclosed jackshaft and mud guard. These sheets have a built in screw adjuster. The previous version without adjuster is still available.

Adjustable sheets for 68mm BB with built in screw adjuster. The adjusters are inside of the BB sheets and adjust through the bottom. They not only make adjusting the tension far easier, they help hold the adjustment in hard use.

Adapter plate to convert the 48 tooth 1/2" bicycle chain secondary sprocket to #219 kart sprocket and chain. A 75 tooth 219 sprocket is the same diameter as the stock 48 tooth.

I tried cutting a 3/4" to 11mm adapter out of 1/2" plate steel in order to run a 12 tooth #219 driver on the secondary side. The laser loses it's clean cut path over that thickness so this may not work. I will use 3/4" rod stock and bore an 11mm hole if I can't use laser. I'll need to purchase a keyway broach to cut the inside keyway.

This last week I started casting slip on 18 tooth 22mm wide driver pulleys in high impact industrial resin. I'm getting good clean results now and need to make more molds so I can produce these in sufficient numbers. The resin has a fairly slow cure time. I lost over a month trying to cast these in zinc with a guy that wasn't up to the job. I haven't given up on metal versions but resin is what we have for now. I'm going to work out an end retaining bolt to make sure the pulley stays in place.

Next week I'm going to make the mold to cast a 120 tooth 22mm wide driven pulley for the primary side. My prototype is set up to take the five bolt ACS Crossfire freewheel. This is a far stronger freewheel than the wimpy little one that comes with the GNG and easy to source in the US and elsewhere. Moving the freewheel to the driven primary makes it possible to run the small 12 tooth 219 sprocket on the secondary side. Overall reduction with my primary and secondary sets is 44:1, better than twice the GNG reduction. Pedaling cadence drops from 150 @ 48v to around 70 @ 48v. Obviously for you over volters this will be a great setup.

I also bought a Gen 2 with the planetary primary and designed adjustable sheets for the BB. I'll take the drawings in to the laser shop on Monday and should have these sheets available in about three weeks.

I'm going to be building my own bike now that I have the parts coming together. I'll start a thread for the build and show how all of this stuff goes together. I'm out of pocket on all of these parts so please do PM me if you're interested in any of them. More photos coming very soon.

Thanks,
Mike
Click to expand...

Man i can't with to see your bike build. I must be the best mid drive of ES!! :D
 
spinningmagnets said:
The website "topsecretev.com" did a write-up on the GNG Gen-1. They kept the belted primary, but added a slipper-clutch similar to what recumpence was using on his very high-powered builds. I think the slip clutch (under $60?) is not a bad idea for a high-powered GNG, but I would still use a chain primary if I was using 48V instead of 36V. You only have to swap-in the chain once, so whey not do it in the beginning? (or at least the first month after you get the rest running)

They call it a "torque limiter" and it is integrated into the large pulley of the primary reduction.

I don't know which make or model those guys are using, but here's a sample of generic torque limiter slipper clutches:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#torque-limiters/=nt0d35
https://sdp-si.com/eStore/CoverPg/Brakes.htm

http://topsecretev.com/blog.php?categories=mid drive slipper clutch
mid_drive_ebike_torque_limiter.jpg
Click to expand...

First of all thanks for all your good advise!!! A sort of slip clutch is a good solution. :idea: I will do some research!!!
 
Great news lightningrods :D .i finally figured out how to put photos up from a mac :oops: .here is my frame,i think im over thinkin this one,gng should fit there?so heres the bottom bracket with a little extra bottom :lol: .HPIM2720.JPG
 

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beast775 said:
Great news lightningrods :D .i finally figured out how to put photos up from a mac :oops: .here is my frame,i think im over thinkin this one,gng should fit there?so heres the bottom bracket with a little extra bottom :lol: .View attachment 2
Click to expand...

This is going to be a challenging bike to go mid drive on. If it were my bike I'd be trying to figure out how to put motor and freewheels behind the chainwheel instead of in front of it. You have all of that space around and behind the BB. If you can avoid running the motor's power through the crankset, that's a good thing. The types of mid drive that cargo bikes have would be great for your chopper.

If you really want to go GNG you're going to have to lose the one piece Ashtabula crankset and go to something like the Cyclone 148mm for 73mm BB shells. If you're going to run the motor through the crankset you'll need a freewheel built in. I'm not sure if the bearings on your BB shell are compatible with sealed cartridge BBs like the Cyclone has.

Hubbies are kind of cool on choppers.....
 
Ya im still thinking just put the plate behind the frame facing the rear and bolt motor on so main drive is behind crank in the middle ,,,,i know this is hard to figure without pics.i didnt like the chopper i built with mid drive trike style.the pedalling always felt resistive even after hrs of bracket work etc.i know the bottom bracket as a drive gear is best. im not givin up yet,but i do have a 9c sittin somewhere in my junk pile,maybe i can try a trike mid gear again.im over thinking this build! :roll: ....thanks for chimin in!
 
Here are a couple of photos of the new 73mm BB sheets:

The rear BB mount is longer than stock. This is to allow for the steep front downtube angle on most full suspension and downhill bikes. The longer BB mount swings the motor up away from rocks and other obstacles.

73BB-1.jpg


I made the bottom of the motor mount deeper for additional rigidity and also made the bottom cross brace (with hole) larger.

73BB-2.jpg


This is a 3D rendering showing how the internal screw adjuster works. The upper adjuster bracket grabs onto a bolt lug on the motor.

73mm_3-4_RR.jpg


Here's a line drawing of how it all works:

73mmBB_profile.jpg


Early adopters on the screw adjusters are reporting back that they make adjusting chain tension much easier and keep the slide from moving when you're banging around off road.
 
This is my version of the slip on drive pulley solution. It has 18 teeth in a GT2 pattern. According to Gates the GT2 belts have at least 2x the power transmitting ability of HTD. I've also made this pulley 22mm wide to run 20mm belts, another 33% power capacity increase. The inside spline of the pulley is an exact negative duplicate of the weird GNG 14 tooth pulley. It slips on perfectly. I cast an end hole into the pulley so that users can drill and tap their motor shaft for a retaining bolt which I'll provide. I talked to the chemist at Smooth-On and bought the high impact TASK resin that he recommended for this type of use. The drive teeth are smooth with no sharp edges and have a perfect GT2 5mm profile.

driverpulley-1.jpg


driverpulley-2.jpg


driverpulley-3.jpg


This pulley can be run with the stock 80 tooth GNG pulley but would be limited to 15mm wide belts by the GNG. The reduction would also be screwed up somewhat by going from 14 to 18 teeth (almost 30% higher). I'm close to finishing a 120 tooth driven pulley that will actually lower the reduction with the 18 tooth, from the stock 5.7:1 to 6.66:1. It's 22mm wide and will be available with and without a freewheel center.
 
spinningmagnets said:
Beautiful work! Very heavy-duty.
Click to expand...

Thanks spinningmagnets! I figured strength trumps light weight in this situation. The sheets are still pretty lightweight despite being much stronger than stock.

TOme, I'll be able to offer a complete kit as soon as I have all of my various parts in place. I've sourced the motors and found everything I need. My machinist is moving 900 miles to be nearby so we can make complete kits and eventually frames and complete bikes. We grew up racing and building cars and motorcycles together in Southern California.
 
LightningRods said:
This is my version of the slip on drive pulley solution. It has 18 teeth in a GT2 pattern. According to Gates the GT2 belts have at least 2x the power transmitting ability of HTD. I've also made this pulley 22mm wide to run 20mm belts, another 33% power capacity increase. The inside spline of the pulley is an exact negative duplicate of the weird GNG 14 tooth pulley. It slips on perfectly. I cast an end hole into the pulley so that users can drill and tap their motor shaft for a retaining bolt which I'll provide. I talked to the chemist at Smooth-On and bought the high impact TASK resin that he recommended for this type of use. The drive teeth are smooth with no sharp edges and have a perfect GT2 5mm profile.

driverpulley-1.jpg


driverpulley-2.jpg


driverpulley-3.jpg


This pulley can be run with the stock 80 tooth GNG pulley but would be limited to 15mm wide belts by the GNG. The reduction would also be screwed up somewhat by going from 14 to 18 teeth (almost 30% higher). I'm close to finishing a 120 tooth driven pulley that will actually lower the reduction with the 18 tooth, from the stock 5.7:1 to 6.66:1. It's 22mm wide and will be available with and without a freewheel center.
Click to expand...

Yessssssssss!!!!!!!! I need one i need one!!!! Nice work!!! Can i order???
 
I'm casting the drivers now. I'll make more molds as needed to keep up with demand. I can only cycle the mold a couple of times a day due to curing time for the resin. Please PM if interested and I'll get you in the queue.
 
Hi Secret1511

Hot here also much more than normal this summer. Cooler finally the past few days. Bit of needed rain today. Hope to get there for the 11 cities race if ice is good this coming winter.

The police here don't know that there are high speed ebikes. There are a couple of us here in holland. So less noise the better.
Click to expand...

They will know all about you, noise or not when you start tripping the photo radar units every where. :p

take care
 
I've been working for weeks developing a #219 secondary drive for the Gen 1 kits. I designed a 3/4" to 11mm adapter so that I could fit a 12 tooth 219 driver on the secondary. I also designed a freewheel to 5 1/4" kart sprocket adapter plate. The 3/4" to 11mm will work with 12T, 13T and 14T 219 sprockets with a 3/4" bore. There is a HUGE range of kart sprockets available from 65T to 93T. A 75T is almost identical in diameter to a 48T 1/2" chain sprocket. The difference is the .3" link pitch. Because of the quality and side plate thickness of good Japanese and German 219 chain they are good up to 15+ horsepower. More than enough for the GNG.

My 219 adapters with sprockets:
219s.jpg


Here is a close up of the 3/4" to 11mm adapter on the left. On the right is a stock Gen 2 1/2" bicycle chain driver.
219_1-2_drivers.jpg


I'm running a 12T driver with an 80T driven on my own bike for 6.66:1 secondary reduction. The stock GNG ratio is 4:1.
 
I need to stop messing around and get my own bike on the road before it starts raining again! I'm so busy building bikes and parts for everyone else that I can't get my own bike done. What's the old saying? "The cobbler's children have no shoes"?
 
As already said, moving the freewheel to the left is the best you can do. Great parts you made, I like your improved chain tensioner design. Maybe you should ship your Kit with a high-strength BottomBracket http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=47618#p698476. Maybe I'll go for a similar design, ATM I'm building a prototype that uses a derailleur style tensioner that has build in pedal torque sensor, like the on jackjetful build, look here http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=45245&p=773687#p773687 . Saves also some weight. Guess it's likely that I go this route since there is a demand for pedal torque controlled middrives. Anyway, keep on your good work!
 
Crossbreak, I've always been very impressed by your work so I'm glad that we agree on the freewheel placement. Several people were concerned about drag from the jackshaft bearings affecting pedaling feel and effort, but you can literally spin the jackshaft with one pinkie finger. How much effort can that add to your legs pedaling the bike? A bigger, stronger freewheel that you can have shipped to you in a couple of days is more than worth the tradeoff. The thing that finally made up my mind was that I wanted to go to #219 chain on the secondary and I couldn't find a 219 freewheel driver sprocket. The more I thought about it, the less I wanted a little secondary freewheel.

Hardley, thanks for the funds. :mrgreen:
 
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