How much electric cost to ride an Ebike?

[Little-Acorn]

I just tried to figure out how much electricity it takes, and what that electricity costs, to ride an Ebike. Came out with a VERY low figure, which I'm not sure is right.

I rode the Trek 7500 Ebike 22 miles. Some flat, some hills, moderate-to-high speeds (15 to 28 MPH). The WattsUp meter said I used 13.7 Ah from the supposedly 20Ah battery... and the BMS cut the power. Hmmm.

Well, I put the battery on the charger, which in turn was connected thru one of those current-and-watt-measuring wall-power meters. Hours later, the light turned green, meaning the battery was fully charged. Cumulative KilowattHours, which had said 1.77 when I started, now said 2.66. So I used about 0.89 KWh to recharge the battery after that 22 mile ride.

A look at the SDG&E bill from a few months ago, made me think that a KWh of electricity cost about $0.1867 (19 cents). Does that sound in the right ballpark to you folks? Electric rates vary, of course. What do some of you pay for electricity?

Anyway, 0.89 KWh for that 22 mile ride, averages out to less than a penny per mile ($0.0076/mile). Just for electricity, of course. Doesn't take in the cost of the bike, wearing out the tires, wearing out whatever else etc.

To drive my car that far, would have taken about a gallon of gas, or about $3.00 for the trip, which comes out to around 13-1/2 cents per mile. Again, this doesn't take in maintenance, insurance, and all the rest. Just raw fuel.

Does "Less than a penny per mile" for electricity for Ebike travel, sound anywhere near right to you? I can't help but think I made a mistake somewhere.

 

[AussieJester]

After listening to Justins video on his cross Canada trip 19 cents sounds a little dear to me, wasnt he paying like under 10 cents a charge? He made it clear across Canada on under 10 bucks of electricity..

KiM

 

[gogo]

That's right for the cost of the electricity. If you want to compare cost per mile vs a car, you need to at least figure in the cost of the battery. Other interesting comparisons would include the cost of the whole vehicle and maintainece, insurance, etc.

 

[John in CR]

I use about 1kwh per day fed into my chargers, so after all losses I use 11-12 cents a day for electricity for my bikes, which are over 90% of my transportation. Just my annual car inspection is nearly that. Annual registration is far higher, and don't even bring up gas. 8)

 

[Little-Acorn]

After listening to Justins video on his cross Canada trip 19 cents sounds a little dear to me, wasnt he paying like under 10 cents a charge? He made it clear across Canada on under 10 bucks of electricity..

KiM

That's pretty consistent with what I found here. One KWh costs around 19 cents, and it took me 0.89 KWh to charge the battery after the 22 mile ride and BMS cutout.

Yep, electricity is a little more expensive here, they ration you and if you exceed the ration, they sock it to you.

But apparently I didn't make any order-of-magnitude errors.

 

[Lock]

What do some of you pay for electricity?

Toronto here.
Just bought `bout 7,600 kWhs at only 11.093¢ per kWh from our Gov... (no, this wasn't just to recharge the pack.)

Through the wizardry of modern government accounting this is stuff the gov buys for 44.3¢ per kWh if solar generated and 13.5¢ per kWh if wind generated...
Watt a wonderful world we live in!
Lock

 

[amberwolf]

Right now it's about 8.79c/KWh for the first 400, then 6.88c/KWh after that (rest of the year it's higher above the cutoff, which changes to 2000KW/h). In May it'll go up to 10.19c/KWh. In July it goes up to 10.73c/KWh, and in November back down to the first rate again.

I don't know how much power it takes to charge my packs, but since I am using a linear power supply rather than switching, to charge it, I'm sure it is more power from the wall to get the same power into the batteries than otherwise. Even so, I'd still bet less than 2c/mile. Probably less than 1.

 

[dnmun]

use 20 Wh/mile and $.11/kWh x (1/charger efficiency)= 20x.00011x(1/.80)= $.0028/mile so 100 miles is 28 cents. 100 miles in the car is 3 gallons of gas at $2.66/gallon, or $8. pray for $20/gallon gas.

 

[dogman dan]

I come up with a similar figure to most. My electric costs about 13 cents per kwh, but is going up again this summer. That used to be outrageous high in the US, but now it's just on the high end of average.

Recharging a completely discharged ping 36v 20 ah takes .76 kwh. Cost per mile varies depending on speed. But even at full speed it's not much more than .5 cents a mile. If I slow down and hypermile at 15 mph, then the cost gets as low as .3 cents a mile.

For some reason my new 48v 15 ah battery is taking more to charge it, about 1 kwh. Not sure if the new charger just wastes more of it, or the battery really has more capacity. It might be more capacity, since the v2 cells are better cells. My range on the v1 pack has never changed since day 1, but maybe it never had an actual 20 ah in it.

Love your electric rates Amberworlf. Particularly since the power for both of us comes from the exact same nuclear reactor! Goes to show two things. EPE is one messed up electric company, and transmission of power 400 miles is not cheap.

 

[John in CR]

It's really going to be nice in a few years as batts come down further in price with longer lives. Then we won't have to worry about amortizing the battery cost as one of our variable costs. They'll just be part of the original cost of the bike, so our variable cost to operate really is just the electricity.

I'll really be at that stage with the pack I'll make with my current DocBass purchase. At $336 for 1.1kwh, if all I get is 1.5 years of use, the batts cost the same as just the registration and annual inspection costs for a small motorcycle here. Gas is $4/gal here, so lightweight EV's are way in the black in economic terms. If Thundersky's last as long as claimed, then an electric car could be in the black too, but I'm still holding out for cheaper batts.

 

[WonderProfessor]

Does "Less than a penny per mile" for electricity for Ebike travel, sound anywhere near right to you? I can't help but think I made a mistake somewhere.

My 20 mile (32 km) ride uses about US$0.04 of electricity each way but I have solar panels at home and I use my school's electricity to recharge at work so the electricity is really free. 36-volt, 20-amp Ping battery with an eZee 20" hub motor on an EZ-1 recumbent. If I get 1,500 charges from my Ping battery, then by amortizing the cost of the battery over its lifetime, each trip will cost me about US$0.40 which is about a penny per mile. I use the pedals quite a bit while I ride, by the way, because I really want (and need) the exercise.

This is the difference between propelling a 200-pound person with a 55-pound bike versus propelling them in an 7,800 pound Sport Utility Land Barge.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Yep, your calculations are correct, I still love telling people how I can get 20 miles out of 5-10 cents of electricity!!

Then they just go:

 

[MrBoots]

Wow. Less than a penny a mile is amazing. If we calculate the costs of maintenance, the difference is mind-boggling. IMO for commuting purposes a quality bike is far more reliable than a car. A friend of mine (who hasn't owned a car since 1984) commutes 15 miles per day nearly everyday for the past couple of years. According to him, all he replaced last year was a BB, 3 sets of new tires, 5 sets of pads and a rear wheel. Oh and the wheels were regularly trued. Mind you, this is all inexpensive, DIY stuff if you have the tools.

In my experience, to keep a brand-new car in satisfactory condition requires thousands of dollars per year. In fact, just two weeks ago, I had my transmission serviced - had the filter replaced and the ATF flushed. I also had some suspension bushings replaced and both services combined cost me $700. This comes on the heals of swapping out my all-season tires for new Blizzaks in Dec. and doing my brake pads, damage for that was $800. And now, the service manager at the dealer tells me I'll need to have the timing belt and front struts serviced/replaced and that's also going to cost a pretty penny (both not covered under warranty because they're considered wear items?). That's to say nothing of my monthly car payments, insurance, fuel and the cost of my monthly parking pass in Boston. In addition to that, I also have to shell out for a monthly subway pass. Registration and excise taxes this year will set me back around $400. I've spent upwards of $3,000 in just servicing my vehicle this year with problems ranging from battery replacement to worn transmission mounts to gasket leaks to jammed CD decks. But enough of me being a perpetual whiner! lol

All told, a big chunk of my earnings goes towards transport and my hope with building my ebike is that I can bypass all those expenses.

 

[amberwolf]

Love your electric rates Amberworlf. Particularly since the power for both of us comes from the exact same nuclear reactor! Goes to show two things. EPE is one messed up electric company, and transmission of power 400 miles is not cheap.

Yeah, I guess the distance probably makes for a big power loss. It's only 50 miles from me. Of course, if anything went *really* wrong, you'd be a lot safer than I would.

 

[John in CR]

Mr Boots,

It sounds like your friend pedals instead of an e-bike, so the actual cost of his commute is far far greater. Food is quite considerably more expensive as an energy source than electricity, and our chargers/batteries/motors are much more efficient at converting the energy to mechanical work. Bicycles may be more efficient than cars, but they don't come close to e-bikes. Cyclists can put that in their pipe and smoke it any time they talk or look down at e-bikers. E-bikes are the most efficient form of personal transportation known to man, period. They even better mass transit forms of transport too.

John

 

[Lock]

Bicycles may be more efficient than cars, but they don't come close to e-bikes.

Correction John. Modern pedal bikes are hugely efficient machines... easily over 90% efficient. It's their *meat motors* that're hugely inefficient, like well less than 30% usually... So the efficiencies multiply as 30% x 95%... still only gives ya 28.5% eff and probably less... Then there's that food energy... The same way electrons can be "dirty" from coal (or nuclear?) food energy is usually lousy with hydrocarbons... Then there's the packaging as waste in landfills... byproduct as sewage... eeeewww
Cost of electricity is such a tiny part of cost per distance for EVs! My understanding anyway...

Lock

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Bicycles may be more efficient than cars, but they don't come close to e-bikes.

Correction John. Modern pedal bikes are hugely efficient machines... easily over 90% efficient. It's their *meat motors* that're hugely inefficient, like well less than 30% usually... So the efficiencies multiply as 30% x 95%... still only gives ya 28.5% eff and probably less... Then there's that food energy... The same way electrons can be "dirty" from coal (or nuclear?) food energy is usually lousy with hydrocarbons... Then there's the packaging as waste in landfills... byproduct as sewage... eeeewww
Cost of electricity is such a tiny part of cost per distance for EVs! My understanding anyway...

Lock

Don't forget that that sewage is now being used to produce electricity too, so that might help with the efficiency :lol:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5335635/

RENTON, Wash. - It's not as neat as spinning straw into gold, but what Greg Bush gets to do in the world of sewage treatment is pretty magical: making electricity from what's flushed down the sewer. And he does it using fuel cells, technology that's cleaner and more efficient than traditional power generation.

It's also still a lot more expensive, but that's the point of the $22 million project -- to build a power plant that can then be replicated at lower cost at sewage treatment plants across the United States, and there are hundreds of them. The power would be used inside the treatment plants and any excess could be sold to the power grid.

Day in and day out, some 700,000 people send 86 million gallons of sewage, mostly toilet and kitchen waste, to the King County treatment plant in Renton, a Seattle suburb.

Little do they know that 30 million of those gallons are producing enough methane gas to run the 1 megawatt, fuel-cell power plant that was built here this year. The system can power 1,000 homes, but in this case all the electricity is going to help run the treatment plant, which needs about 7.5 MW per hour a day on average.

How it works
The largest project of its type in the world, the process goes like this: Biodegradable solid waste is sent to large tanks, called digesters, that provide a home for three to four weeks. There bacteria eat away at the waste, releasing methane gas and further reducing the amount of solid waste.

James Cheng / MSNBC.com
Four large digester tanks sit behind the fuel cell power plant at the wastewater treatment plant in Renton, Wash.

"We maintain a nice little environment for bacteria: warm and wet," says Bush, program manager for the project, which is funded by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, FuelCell Energy and King County.

Most treatment plants flare off the methane, and a few burn it to get electricity for their sites. But the Renton plant captures the gas and sends it to a fuel cell system, where the methane is broken down into hydrogen and carbon dioxide. The carbon dioxide is recirculated to produce carbonate. The carbonate then combines with the hydrogen to produce electricity, water, carbon dioxide and heat.

Fuel cells operate like a battery, and methane or any other fuel containing hydrogen can be used to power the process. A key advantage to fuel cells is that they are much more efficient at generating electricity than the combustion process found in today's cars and power plants.

Long, hard road it's been
King County had been looking to start the project six years ago, and was set to go when the first fuel cell company it partnered with went bankrupt.

FuelCell Energy, a company based in Danbury, Conn., eventually stepped in, and has a team of four helping prep the project. Eventually, the system should be stable enough to monitor it remotely from Danbury.

The fuel cell technology used is different than that being developed for cars. Even though no combustion is involved, FuelCell Energy's stacks reach temperatures up to 1,200 degrees Fahrenheit.

"You wouldn't want to drive around with 1,200 degrees in your car," says Dan Beachy, project leader for FuelCell Energy.

 

[John in CR]

Lock,

I understand your point, and agree, but following the same logic, if we exclude the friction losses in of the tires and bearing, which both have, then my direct drive hub motor bikes would be infinitely more efficient than a pedal bike because mine have no loss in the chain drive. That type of comparison isn't very useful. What is useful is the food is considerably more expensive than electricity for the same energy content, and the human body is far less efficient in converting that energy content to mechanical energy than our electric motors. Bikes are a lot more efficient than walking or running, but e-bikes kick the shit out of all of them.

The HPV's are a nice form of exercise, but otherwise they're just a novel form of transportation that's both slow and dangerous. It may be heresy to many here, but it's true. Human power makes for a nice ready to go backup or range extender, but not all that economical.

 

[Lock]

...mine have no loss in the chain drive.

Correction John. That should say *almost* no loss
In my experience, engineers, designers and dreamers tend to express things under optimum conditions, where "Joe Public" has not yet had the chance to degrade the experience/efficiency/performance with eg "deferred maintenance"...

...and the human body is far less efficient in converting that energy content to mechanical energy than our electric motors.

Yah Yah, `cept the human body comes w/a brain that is far more interesting to interface with than magnets and copper coils etc...

The HPV's are a nice form of exercise, but otherwise they're just a novel form of transportation that's both slow and dangerous.

Actually John, in a 21st-century urban environment "Speed Kills", a 20th-century maxim but no less true going forward. The *truth* is, for us 21st-century urban dwellers, slower is the safer way to go (especially given the legacy of 20th-century urban "planning")...
Lock
(P.S. Oh Yah... Humans (powering vehicles and vessels) are not NOVEL. We are the base-line for comparison. The "thing" to aspire to when you add civility to the mix.<wink>)