HS4065 - A newbie kit for commuting

[efergy kb]

After reading tuna's post for his commuter; it provided a good basis for some of my questions; however i decided to start this new thread for any other newbies looking at the same thing and questions i couldn't find an answer to easily...
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=34224&p=497132&hilit=+future+proof+#p497132

I am looking for a commuter however it needs to keep up with traffic. A flat ride of 5km each way however needs to:
- Reach 30mph. Anything over is a bonus and dangerous riding through the city!
- Reliable w/ low maintenance as i am no electronic or bike guru.

From my research so far it looks like i will need at least the following parts
- Motor w/ rims
- Freewheel
- Torque Arm + 3mm washer
- Controller [Lyen's 12mosfet]
- Battery w/ charger
- Cycle Analyst and PAS
- 1/2 twist throttle
- 3 speed switch
- eBrake lever
- Tyres
- Triangle bag or rear rack
- DC-DC Converter
- Turn Key switch
- anything else?....

- Controller/Hall tester?


That's the easy part... now for the questions.
- Motor:
- Looking at the HS4065 w/ rims of 26x32mm wide. EMTB suggest this only handles 2.5kw continuously however what if i want to run 72v @40a in the future?
- Its been suggested that the HS4065 may be a pain to install and the LBS will hate me for it as it may or may not fit the bike properly?
- Tyres
- Hookworms 2.5" seems to be the tyre of choice. Does the front and back tyres need to somewhat match in width?
- Also put in some Mr Tuffy liners and heavy duty inner tube for extra potection and dont want to change any flats.
- Freewheel – I currently have a 9 speed on the bike
- If i move to 7spd freewheels means a change in derailers + chain. Yes?
- Is there any benefits from going down from 9 to 7? or to 8? Why would anyone switch?
- Is the freewheel only necessary due to the 11T?
- Has anyone ordered the 8 or 9 and found that it doesn't fit and must go to the 7spd?
- Battery Getting a triangle battery of 50V @12AH of EM3V. Believe it is a A123?
- I believe this is sufficent on the 4065 to get up to 30mph even with a controller of 25-30A?
- Getting something with more range - ire. @18AH is it just a waste of money if i only travel short distances and regularly charger battery?
- Cycle Analyst
- Has anyone bought the security screws so that users cannot tamper with the brackets? The bike will be locked outside.
- Charger
- Read that a charger drawing more A is not good for the battery as this will shorten the life of the battery...
- Is there any charger that can be limited in output (configurable) depending on your battery? (ie. if i update to a 72V battery, the charger is still okay?)
- DC-DC Converter
- Read this is only for up to 48V batteries? I know 50V is minor however do you have to modify the dc converter to purchase another?
- Wondered if anybody have another dc converter that allow drawing of more power (ie. up to 20A instead of the 2A)
- Locking
- Not too sure if its safe to leave the battery in the bag and leave the whole thing in the streets locked by a D lock.
- It looks like thieves can get to the bag and hence the battery etc... does everybody always take the battery with them if its stored in a triangle bag? (or as i've seen stored in pelican cases! or mod the frame to house the battery)

thanks in advance

 

[dogman dan]

I'll try to cover most of it.

Good choice of motor, it should get 30mph, or very close to it on a 48v battery.

Forget having nearly all bike shops touch it. If they let you in the door at all with it that is. This is something you have to learn yourself.

The motor can take a lot more than 2500w for short periods. By short I mean less than 10 miles, so you can run 72v 40 amps for 5k with no problem.

Hookworms good, but sub 40 mph lots of other good street tires can work fine.

Typically you will use a 7 speed freewheel. But I understand screw on 9 speeds might be available now. You have to swap chains, shifters, and possibly even everything to convert to 7 speed. 8 speed to 7 speed can work without changing more than adjustments.

11 t rear gear is good if you plan on pedaling when going fast. Most stop pedaling. 48-14 gear only pedals to about 23 mph. Above that, you need a frame that can take bigger front rings, and or 11t in back. Personally, I don't pedal much unless going under 20 mph. For me it's my post viral fatigue preventing pedaling. Before I got sick, I loved pedaling with a 56 tooth front crank.

It could well be that a 9 speed won't fit if you find one that screws on. ( can't be a cassette) But I don't know the specifics of fitting the Clyte HS motor. It could require spreading the frame to wider than 135mm. You can't spread alloy frame much more than to 140mm. Steel frames you can bend much wider.

EM3ev's triangle battery is not lifepo4 anymore. But his current triangle battery pack is still a good choice. But I wouldn't run one myself with more than 30 amps controller.

30 amps will get you up to 30 mph. 1000w will do it in good conditions, 1500w in some breeze still enough.

More range is good, but 12 ah of 48v will take you quite far at slower speeds such as 20 mph. At 30 mph, you easily have 10 miles and likely more. Don't get more than will fit in your triangle of course. The bag is great, so get what fit's in the bag. Get a bike that can fit the battery bag. Carrying a second battery for the really long trips is possible.

Mounting the CA more secure is good. I recommend the bracket that mounts it to the headset top.

Charger. Paul will set you up with a good charger. I see no problem with using his biggest charger, especially for charging at a coffee shop or at work. But a second charger is a very good idea. Chargers do blow, and then you are stuck without a spare. You could get a slow one for the spare, and use it at home for overnight charging.

Changing voltage means getting a new charger. You might be changing the type of battery when you go hot rod anyway, for a high c rate lico.

I know nothing about the DC converter stuff.

It's not safe to leave the bike long anywhere, in any town. They WILL take it. Good locks slow down the opportunists, but not the pro's. For sure at least remove the battery when you can. Not too hard with that EM3ev bag to remove the pack. Put a handle on the pack, to make it easier to carry and pull out of the bag.

 

[newb]

this is not to add any confusion but to offer a different line of thought. from what i read you have not given a reason to go with a big/heavy DD motor. if u r commuting on flat ground with some rides in the hills and your not afraid of pedaling when needed, i would suggest an 8 turn mac/controller combo (w/dual phase & temp wires) from cellman along w/ your battery. it will do 50-55kph w/o pedaling @ 48v and tackles the hills quite well. a mate just upgraded to this setup, i am totally impressed with its power/speed and he has not had an issue of overheating even when he's trying to keep up w/ me in the hills. plus, it is a fraction the cost and weight of the big DD motors. another benefit is u can buy virtually everything you need from paul and save on all the international shipping from multiple vendors. anyways, good luck w/ whichever way you go.

 

[dogman dan]

True, but the comment about 72v 40 amps later makes me think he wants to fly that 5 k later.

Good Idea though, to practice riding 30 mph a bit before joining the 40 mph club. 40 on a scooter or motorcycle is easy compared to hauling ass on mere bicycle tires.

And, there's the whole illegal unlicensed homemade flyweight motorcycle with pedals on the street thing. Local lawmen may be a problem at 30 mph, or not.

He can get 30 mph out of a motor that is much much cheaper.

 

[wesnewell]

A basic motor kit that comes with everything you need except the battery that will do 30mph is available in Sydney for AU$275 shipped to your door. Can't understand why you would want to spend more.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Electric-Bicycle-E-Bike-Conversion-Kit-Brushless-Motor48V-1000W-Rear-Wheel-Rack-/150956506830
This is basically a GM 901 clone motor. I've got 10,000 miles and almost 3 years on mine and I ride it every day 10-20 miles. I've never had a problem with it even though I've been running at 66-88V the whole time with a different controller. The stock controller is limited to 63V max, which will have a top speed of ~35mph. Put it on a cheap 26" bike with steel dropouts, some decent 2.125" or larger tires, and your set except for the battery. For such a short commute as you have, I'd get 10ah of 15s rc lipo (63V fully charged) or a 15ah 48/52V lifepo4 pack capable of 30A burst. A 10ah 20C lipo pack will support 200A, so you don't have to worry about that part with it. If you go with lipo, this VM will suffice as a fuel gauge.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Waterproof-Digital-Voltmeter-DC-15V-To-120V-Red-Led-Voltage-Digital-Panel-Meter-/170846310527
Now if you want to spend more money because you just have it burn, you can add all that other stuff, but it's not needed.

 

[dogman dan]

Well, that's definitely an option, but he will get a better disk brake mount and a better centered wheel with the clyte.

For sure though, the kit you suggest will do the 30 mph and should last just fine. No reason not to expect the motor and controller to last 10,000 miles.

Rims and spokes can be a problem with any kit, however costly.

 

[efergy kb]

thank you all for your advice.
The reason why i chose direct drive was for reliability and maintenance. Less parts; less worries? Thats a generalism naturally. And also the future possibility to upgrade the battery on this without worrying about motor overheating?
I have read (over the last few days after getting feedback) on the direct drives vs geared to better my understanding. The key reference is here http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=39742
For who knows very little about bicycle maintenance and a lot less on ebikes (ie. zero); i'd like to do more riding and less tinkering

newb - though i dont think i can disagree with what you said. 50kph is plenty though you'll never know once you get on these things if you want to go more and i dont see myself purchasing several bikes as there is no room for it.

decent 2.125" or larger tires

Any particular reason why 2.1"? - i've been looking at a Schwalbe Marathon 2". The puncture resistance is key.

dogman - thank you for all your feedback. Thought i dont really understand what you meant

he will get a better disk brake mount and a better centered wheel

Rims & spokes - opens up another world of questions! Will need to go to my LBS on what additional parts i need for them to do this. At the moment looking at Sun Ringle MTX and 14g spokes.

Freewheel - i dont want to be converted anything to 7/8 speeds if not necessary. Thus 11T 9spd will do for now.
I am slowly go over John Bozi's 4065 build and its scaring me a little on the width of the 4065 and 9spd freewheel http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=49136&hilit=3565

Battery - i also noticed on EM3EV's website that

' A 20R equipped pack with circa 11.7Ah can easily deliver over 50A continuously. The 20R delivers High Current effortlessly'

This is is recommended battery for anything higher than 30A or at that.
Oh just remembered the 200W sticker as well that should be purchased.
Charger: Noted re: 2nd charger. Maybe find out how to plug it in at work...

Put a handle on the pack, to make it easier to carry and pull out of the bag.

Is there any reference to this how people do it??

Locks for bike: i go out after work and ride here and there and leave it for a few hours at a time. i need to be able to leave it exposed without risking theft. I am looking into some type of movement sensors/ sirens? or may look into building/ getting someone to build some type of fiberglass shell for the battery?
- i started looking at pitlock bolts to secure the wheels/ seatpost. Need to find out how to secure the seat to the damn seat post too just in case some idiots want to play a prank of some sort to take the seat.

 

[newb]

1st a brief comment on newer geared motors, there are plenty of people running them at 75v 30a+ w/o issue. yes, it is harder on them but the new gears and clutches have greatly reduced the occurrence of problems. as a commuter bike, heat is not likely to be as much of an issue unless u plan to run wot the whole time in which case ok there is only so much mass in these motors. that said, i ride with bozi on occasion and his 4065 gets surprisingly warm even hot quite quickly when were out, he's running 48v @ 50a. so just saying, that an 8t geared motor would provide about the same performance (speed/power) at the same V's as the 4065 but only need 30ish amps to do it, hence less heat and better range. but i digress, you want a 4065, ok good motor, moving on.

you can run a 9spd but you will have to spread your rear drop outs to do it, it's not recommended but many people do/have done it w/o issue. and because you plan to run a fairly narrow tire you probably wont need to dish the rim, that is if you don't mind the wheel being off center.

your local lbs will hopefully steer you in the write direction but since you live in sydney it may be worth going to visit Glow Worm. they will definitely point you in the right direction.

also as you probably read, bozi is looking to extended his range and add some versatility (12s/18s/etc) to his setup so he is selling his battery/charger and controller. he wants a very fair price for what he has as it's virtually new. if you want it and know what connectors you want to use on the motor I will solder on the those connectors to the controller so it's plug and play.

finally bike security, that is a tough one. adding a canopy/battery box is probably the best way to deter battery theft (other than removing it). although, the vibration alarms seem like they would do the job as well. i actually have several i planned to put on my bikes but have never gotten to it - basically this. now that i say this i will probably dig them out and start using them. but for everyday protection, i use nothing on my batteries but i use a heavy duty D lock to secure my bike and occasionally use a cable lock to secure racks/bags/seats/wheels. though if i were living back in the states again, i would probably have an armored personnel carrier follow me around and park it in there to keep it secure and even then who knows.

it may also be worth trying to meet some local forum members and examine their rides, maybe you can get to ride a few. if so, you will be so much more confident in your decisions, otherwise its all guess work til own one and then it could be to late. i know there is information overload and an over abundance of opinions (as i inset foot in mouth), so take what you think is relevant to your needs. best of luck

 

[dogman dan]

Don't know bike mechanics, don't want to fiddle with stuff. But wants to keep 9 speeds. Oh boy. For starters, you will never use anything but the 9th speed anyway. At 30 MPH YOU WON'T BE PEDALING ANYMORE.

I'm changing my advice now. You need to back off a bit, and build an ebike based on a very simple to maintain 7 speed bike. Aim for a lot less speed. If you tear around town at 30 mph, you will need to do maintenance weekly. You know those bike racers that go that speed maintain the bike daily right? At 20 mph, more like every 6 months.

You might consider a less powerful set up, to go perhaps 25 mph. A simple steel frame 21 speed, or a 7 speed beach cruiser makes for a less complicated install. Riding 20- 25 mph is still very fast for bikes, but they can take that a lot better without needing a wheel truing every week.

Once you master the bike mechanics, then you can consider making a bike that does what a bike was never designed to do. Even the cheapest direct drive motors can get into the 40 mph club later. But a good gearmotor like a Mac 10t would also be an excellent choice.