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Joby motor, dc/dc converter, igbt controller, photodiodes

Teh Stork

1 kW
Joined
May 25, 2011
Messages
463
Hello,

I'm currently drooling at joby's JM1S motor with a 17kV (500V) wind. I see the extreme amperage normally needed to produce huge power as inefficient and expencive. Kicking it up a notch to where igbts are effective (i.e - not 200v range) and using a bidirectional dc/dc converter would imo result in a better product. Instead of using 6*x mosfets for low voltage phase current controll - you would only need one huge one for the dc/dc converter.

Spin off: Using the dc/dc circuit already there, adding some components to charge from 220Vac (maybe using Vpp for 440V rectified) without a big bulky charger would be nice.

Dc/dc converter, i'm blank here as to what circuit to go for; but the stuff I've read so far indicates that power density of such a converter should be able to reach 10kW/kg. Total added weight should not be much more than 2 kgs for this.

Controller. I'm thinking of a master/slave setup between a atmel AVR and a atmel FPGA. Motor controll will be controlled by the fpga (~3ns reaction time) with simple logic gates and a pwm input. The avr will handle all the inputs and monitor the state of everything. Igbt's: again, I need a lot of input.

Encoder: One alternative is using bemf for the high speed electrical rpm (200 000 at 9000rpm speed). The drawback is off the line start, you need to use pedals to get up to speed. Hall elements are suceptible to noise - I find photodiodes being a nice alternative. At ~2 dollars each they are cheap, with a 2,5 ns rise and fall time. There may be better alternatives when taking implementation to a fpga into consideration (this was the first alternative I found).

Yes, I know joby motors are rated for continous use in a aircraft (=lots of airflow). What do people think of the idea? Please chime in with your pros and cons :)
 
Teh Stork said:
Hello,

I'm currently drooling at joby's JM1S motor with a 17kV (500V) wind. I see the extreme amperage normally needed to produce huge power as inefficient and expencive. Kicking it up a notch to where igbts are effective (i.e - not 200v range) and using a bidirectional dc/dc converter would imo result in a better product.


This whole top section is just nonsense.

The singular flaw of current is the voltage drop in the wires leading to a motor. After getting to the motor, the heat the motor produces for a given amount of torque or power is determined by the copper fill, so if it's wound for 24v or 2,400v, the efficiency is identical.

To think you could add a bi-directional DC/DC and come out more efficient, or better in any way than simply using larger wire is insane.
 
liveforphysics said:
Teh Stork said:
Hello,

I'm currently drooling at joby's JM1S motor with a 17kV (500V) wind. I see the extreme amperage normally needed to produce huge power as inefficient and expencive. Kicking it up a notch to where igbts are effective (i.e - not 200v range) and using a bidirectional dc/dc converter would imo result in a better product.


This whole top section is just nonsense.

The singular flaw of current is the voltage drop in the wires leading to a motor. After getting to the motor, the heat the motor produces for a given amount of torque or power is determined by the copper fill, so if it's wound for 24v or 2,400v, the efficiency is identical.

To think you could add a bi-directional DC/DC and come out more efficient, or better in any way than simply using larger wire is insane.

Sorry, I wasn't being clear in the top section. I was thinking of low voltage high amperage controllers as inefficient, expencive and unreliable, not different motor winds.

Let me rephrase: Would it be a viable option to include a bidirectional dc/dc converter to transient into IGBT voltage ranges to decrease controller complexity and price? Having a true 6 fet would surely decrease pcb size and complexity.

Or am I just completely off track here? Should I just go with some 24 fet 300 amp controller and KISS?
 
Teh Stork said:
Let me rephrase: Would it be a viable option to include a bidirectional dc/dc converter to transient into IGBT voltage ranges to decrease controller complexity and price? Having a true 6 fet would surely decrease pcb size and complexity.

Or am I just completely off track here? Should I just go with some 24 fet 300 amp controller and KISS?

Luke is right about the motor. The battery management would also be more complex when you get to high voltages. Only when you're talking about running something the size of a car does that make sense. Running a boost converter will also add more cost and complexity and decrease efficiency compared to running on the low voltages straight to the motor.
 
Teh Stork said:
Sorry, I wasn't being clear in the top section. I was thinking of low voltage high amperage controllers as inefficient, expencive and unreliable, not different motor winds.

Let me rephrase: Would it be a viable option to include a bidirectional dc/dc converter to transient into IGBT voltage ranges to decrease controller complexity and price? Having a true 6 fet would surely decrease pcb size and complexity.

Or am I just completely off track here? Should I just go with some 24 fet 300 amp controller and KISS?


I think you would find, due to the extremely high electrical frequency of the Joby motor (I found NO SENSORED CONTROLLER THAT COULD EVEN RUN MY JOBY PAST HALF-RPM), you would be up a tree even trying to do IGBT's to switch fast enough to provide low RPM current control, and then spin the motor up. You would be so screwed on switching losses alone, it would kinda be a control and switching loss nightmare trying to do IGBTs.

Keep in mind, the "Ultra-Fast-high-speed" firmware Kelly barely got to half RPM, the Sevcon (which has a really fast modern processor) made it to half RPM and could not control current (not enough time for it's carrier freq to even regulate anything), both struggling to run in a glitchy state. If you entered slower switching big IGBT's into the picture (big because with an IGBT you can only use 6 for a controller due to a non-positive-temp-coefficient), you're really going to be in a wasteful control nightmare just to try to get power to the controller on time to run it, let alone even starting with the normal losses a controller has to deal with.

To run these at full speed, it takes some fast fast switches, and likely not even caring about phase current control (all that matters to a motor and controller), because it's just really hard to instrument it at those speeds. This is how RC controllers can do it, and run a Joby up to full speed.

I spent an hour with the Joby controller developer talking about a controller to run them, he was a very smart controller guy who's job had been on a great engineering team for over a year to try to do it. No dice. They were still using RC controllers, which were the most efficient and capable of high speed operation, but sadly, ONLY capable of high speed operation...
 
liveforphysics said:
I think you would find, due to the extremely high electrical frequency of the Joby motor (I found NO SENSORED CONTROLLER THAT COULD EVEN RUN MY JOBY PAST HALF-RPM), you would be up a tree even trying to do IGBT's to switch fast enough to provide low RPM current control, and then spin the motor up. You would be so screwed on switching losses alone, it would kinda be a control and switching loss nightmare trying to do IGBTs.

Keep in mind, the "Ultra-Fast-high-speed" firmware Kelly barely got to half RPM, the Sevcon (which has a really fast modern processor) made it to half RPM and could not control current (not enough time for it's carrier freq to even regulate anything), both struggling to run in a glitchy state. If you entered slower switching big IGBT's into the picture (big because with an IGBT you can only use 6 for a controller due to a non-positive-temp-coefficient), you're really going to be in a wasteful control nightmare just to try to get power to the controller on time to run it, let alone even starting with the normal losses a controller has to deal with.

To run these at full speed, it takes some fast fast switches, and likely not even caring about phase current control (all that matters to a motor and controller), because it's just really hard to instrument it at those speeds. This is how RC controllers can do it, and run a Joby up to full speed.

I spent an hour with the Joby controller developer talking about a controller to run them, he was a very smart controller guy who's job had been on a great engineering team for over a year to try to do it. No dice. They were still using RC controllers, which were the most efficient and capable of high speed operation, but sadly, ONLY capable of high speed operation...

The thing with sevcon and kelly controllers is that they are microcontrollers, there are going to be some delay in input, then to write data, and then to read and write some output high. My atmel 2560 (regarded as a hi-quality microcontroller) ADC read time was up to 25 microseconds!! I fear sevcon and kelly has the same weaknesses. Mhz is one thing, read (rise time if you will) time of input gates can still suck. In the 2560 you can run a waveform-generator to run some motors pretty fast (and without the adc problems), but 200 000 EPM is out of range.

This is why I want to go with a FPGA. These things can be used to display a picture on a monitor screen, they're crazy fast! 3ns response time. Using logic gates: Input; PWM, PhotoDiode 1, PD2, PD3 and output; Transistor 0, T1, T2, T3, T4, T5 would be all this controller would do. What transistor drives to go for is also a question. Photodiodes are unaffected by noise in comparison to hall-elements, and also faster. All in all you would have a way faster circuit.

Trying to think new here. IGBT datasheets are pretty new for me, but I see a way around the low rpm current controll. Controll the current with the bi-directional dc/dc converter. Actually we wouldn't need PWM in the FPGA circuit at all. Tell me i'm not completely off :twisted:

Looking at IGBTs. Here are fairchild 600V, 5W/C, fast switching and a International rectifier, positive temp-coeff, "benchmark for motor efficiency" some I've been looking at. They are cheap and look rugged enough. Aren't these just as fast and efficient as the Mosfets we normally use?
 
Luke , does this make any sense?
..They use something called bridge boost converter ? I actually dont know is it meant for controller or they are speaking of some dc converter for high voltage

article 1
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=zh-CN&tl=en&u=http://www.hgxdcy.cn/service/detail/1806.html&usg=ALkJrhhx1UNZFYSvj5SEeV_-_jK-JMxrQQ
article2
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=zh-CN&tl=en&u=http://www.hgxdcy.cn/service/detail/1812.html&usg=ALkJrhhZCl-3VWUd82HQPzbj2bpW7P9kUg
article3
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=zh-CN&tl=en&u=http://www.hgxdcy.cn/service/detail/1812.html&usg=ALkJrhhZCl-3VWUd82HQPzbj2bpW7P9kUg

Wait a little , the page is taking 15 minutes to load...
 
Correct me if i am wrong , but are they talking about putting igbts as a secondary stage mosfet ? ... before the output to motor ?
 
if you want to go upto 200000epm, wouldn't it be enough to just to have some combinational logic (74HCxxxx)
inbetween the hall/opto & PWM signal on one side and the FET drivers on the other side ?

25 usec seems pretty slow for an ADC, my 30F4011 takes 5 usec to convert 4 analog signals ... ?
 
Lebowski , since you are also experienced , what is the actual meaning of links sent ?
Also , does that mean that maybe we must boost the current from small mosfet to bigger igbts and then to motor ; will that in any way help low resistance motors or big brushless motors like Joby to function easier.....
I am really talking now about thisngs that i dont understand too much ... but would like to know your opinion are there any benefits...
 
The links you posted are for building a DC to DC converter and don't really have anything to do with motor drivers.

As far as driving IGBT's goes, I would use optocouplers with IGBT-gate driver output stage, like these (cost:2 to 3 euro):

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1266081.pdf

The micro-controller, via a resistor, is connected to the LED part of the opto-coupler, the driver IC does the rest
and can be connected to the gate of an IGBT (see figure 17 in the datasheet).

This is by the way just an example, there's lots of optocoupler / gate driver IC's available.

If you ever go this route, don't forget to choose polarities such that the IGBT is off when the optocouplers LED is off.
 
Looks like they are using a full-bridge converter, which is a type of isolated switch-mode supply. It could be made either step-up or step-down, but from the (mangled) translation is sounds like they are using it to step up a modest battery voltage to a high DC bus voltage. I think I saw 650 V in there somewhere? That seems pretty high, as even 600 V IGBTs wouldn't work. In any case, with this topology the control is a little more complicated but you should be able to control the current using the boost stage and only use the inverter stage for commutation. Efficiency-wise you're taking a bit of a hit since there are two switching stages, but it could make some aspects of the design easier since you now have a low-voltage high-current stage and a high-voltage low-current stage so you can optimize a bit more.

I agree that FPGAs are the way to go for really high RPM controllers. You can easily implement all the functions that need to be super-fast on a very modest FPGA (commutation, PWM generation, fast fault shutdown, etc). If you wanted a controller with more advanced features, like current control, closed-loop control, etc. those can be done on a separate PIC/AVR/etc. All of those functions happen on a relatively slow time table, so programming the uP would be much easier with the time-critical operations off-loaded.
 
Thanks people.. Yap...well its nnice to see that on ES even a wrong link gets ideas flowing..
 
Lebowski said:
if you want to go upto 200000epm, wouldn't it be enough to just to have some combinational logic (74HCxxxx)
inbetween the hall/opto & PWM signal on one side and the FET drivers on the other side ?

25 usec seems pretty slow for an ADC, my 30F4011 takes 5 usec to convert 4 analog signals ... ?

Yes, it struggles with some noise or something. Not sure of the fault. It is not a steady 25usec latency, it's just a peak - that sometimes gets really bad. The normal latency is more like 2,5-3 usec. Anyway, my point was that a fpga/opto (opto sensors) must be insanely much faster. Not only increasing efficiency, but also reducing costs. A very modest fpga (~5-6 dollars) can handle motor controll and fault controll (fast reacting).

Lebowski said:
Microchip now has PIC's with a CLC module (Configurable Logic Cell), somewhat like a mini-FPGA on a PIC :D Pity it's only upto the 16F series for now :(
Look to AVR, they have som really nice implementation of AVR and their FPGA. Shareable Ram and also the abillity to reprogram the (or parts of it) FPGA with the AVR is some nice features. Their free complier is also some of the best avatible on the market.

I have been thinking more of the converter circuit and BMS. BMS can be handled "inbetween" the cells, alllways balancing instead of running motor current through it. The dc/dc converter can easily controll current. I will set up and do some calclations and post them here when I know more :)
 
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