Lead Acid JumpStart + Laptop Battery

[methods]

I purchased 2pcs of the following item for around $50 and change from Costco Santa Cruz.



It rests in an "OFF" state and pressing the button brings an LCD screen to life that displays %charged.

Plug in to the uUSB (with anything) and it will begin to (very slowly) charge.
Hold the button down for a long time and the flashlight will illuminate or blink.
Plug an Android into the USB-C and it will charge an Android
Plug an old Apple laptop into the USB-C and it WILL indicate charging on that laptop (Even tho voltages dont match)



For Jumping, it walks you thru it and knows when it is done. We are about to see... if it looks for
* Dip
* Turns on
* Bump
* Turns off

I doubt it has a giant shunt. . . but it has two primary wires + a third

We could speculate for half an hour. . . or I could just crack it open and we will know exactly what it does.


(Notice that I am compressing my pictures. I use IrfanView Batch Edit - which I tuned long ago to fit another forum)

Stated 8Ah (same as 8,000mAh)
Stated 3.6V
Stated 29.6Wh

29.6Wh / 8Ah = NominalVoltage
29.6Wh = NominalVoltage * 8Ah
29.6W = NominalVoltage * 8A
29.6/8 (W/A) = NominalVoltage
3.7 (V) = NominalVoltage = 3.7V

So.. that is just for one cell and not the whole pack.(?) If it were the whole pack we would now know the S configuration. We can still back that out several ways - for example - by assuming C rating and period of allowable ON time. (edit: more later)



Plenty to go on there. . . and lots of Safety seals.

AC530171 brings us to the OEM website
https://typesauto.com/products/type-s-jump-starter-and-portable-power-bank-with-lcd-ac530171



OH DUDE - SPILLED THE BEANS!

I would have never even thought to look inside of that potted assembly for some active components. They even show us the package. . . so we know the basic Architecture.

Of note... the Battery housing has the UL approvals (presumably) and not the overall assembly. Eh hem. ... I dont see any approvals on the (non-potted) jump adapter (Which I will open in a second)

... Jumping was butter smooth and it lit off my old Honda with crusty terminals perfectly. It started beeping when it was done (not that you can hear that over an Engine...) and it displayed that it had used 3% of my 100% capacity (Which we will assume rolls off QUICK after the first couple of hits.



Oh yea, very standard setup.
Same I posted previously, so no kind of Intellectual Property or Secret

Power Comes in (and Leaves) Via the Drain of a pair of parallel mosfets.
Control circuit works off the middle, and I could reverse that high level in 15 minutes

Large Electrolytic (likely to survive Tjump?).... Have to draw it up to see.



We can see that Battery (+) Voltage is tapped via a small gauge black wire.
We are breaking Battery (-) Voltage, so we have that ground signal.
We dont know what the yellow wire is ... but I doubt it is 5V in because feedback must be sent back...

5V for the onboard electronics could easily come from the battery connection.

(Putting my glasses on now, as this is more interesting than I anticipated... Original Unit was NO DOUBT potted...)



Reading the manual, posted above... Wow... Is that right? Just 30Wh for the whole thing???

... So they are marking the packaging in a WEIRD way unless they are up-boosting from 1S - which of course they are not... The only possible thing they could be doing is 3S

(Only Logical Conclusion)

3S gives you 9V to 12.6V
Either of those voltages, into a Starter short circuit, will push enough current to turn over a truck.

Going on that assumption (Which is Logical but may not be True)

10Ah per cell
Expect to see standard 2.6Ah 18650 inside
Backing out the C-Rate required to BURST

200 - 350A
Start with the 200A

Each cell in series sees this current
Each cell would be 2.6Ah
200A/2.6A = 77C
FAR from unheard of these days. Just yesterday I bought a bunch of Lipo from Hobby King rated from anywhere like 30C to 75C to 90C and above. ... So... Totally do-able, especially with a pouch right off the shelf...

And based on that logic, it cant be 18650's inside, it has to be an RC pouch*

... But Safety
For Safety (even with Temp sensors) it would MUCH more likely be a can with vents... but then... there are 8,000 laptops out there (oh, excuse me, 8 Million, er... I mean 8 BILLION) laptops out there running pouches.

Eh hem
(I love how we think we are on the brink of some new information in RC... while Laptops have been running pouches since the days of way back... taken apart MANY. . . know it to be true)

... so
I guess we have to take the primary housing apart. I doubt it will be sealed.

...
Final Guess?
* 3pcs 18650 high end?
* 3pcs Pouch low end?

... Based on the formfactor, and safety, I am guessing 18650...

BUT
350A / 2.6Ah = 135C
I dont think that burst rating exists. . .

BAH
I GIVE UP
WE WILL HAVE TO OPEN IT AND SEE

-methods

 

[methods]

These things can only come apart a couple of ways. You may be thinking that you dont want to lose the little gummies that cover the screws. . . but. .. sometimes you just have to try it and see what happens.

Sometimes you get a surprise*



Oh Yea. . .
Touring Items Type S is a friend of the revolution!

Would you look at that. . . . . . . . . .

-methods

 

[john61ct]

Wouldn't capacitors be used to kick up the amps for a jump's 1-2sec output?

 

[methods]

We can have 3 basic setups

* Totem Pole (as seen in controllers)
* Common Drain (requiring more complicated drive)
* Common Source (Easiest to Implement)

Assuming of course, N-Channel trench fets



For the Totem Pole we require a trivial gate driver on the lower half, and something to get us up a bit, for the upper half (Assuming we are switching our own power)

Not interested in that. . . no point in it here.
What we want here, is BIDIRECTIONAL CURRENT CONTROL

We dont want current flowing thru body diodes...
* Not from Jumper to battery (else we have no control and have no short circuit protection)
* Not from Battery back to jumper (eh hem) which would happen once Alternator kicks off



You draw in the gate currents and it becomes obvious which to choose. We can now go back and see if this guess is right by looking at the circuit from previous pics (goes to look, not at PN, all these parts have the same pinout)

... Without even looking, I remember, TABS OUT
Tabs are always the Drain
That means Common Source
That means - yes, our guess was correct. Really the only way to do it sensibly.

-methods

 

[methods]

Wouldn't capacitors be used to kick up the amps for a jump's 1-2sec output?

You could not pack enough capacitance in there IMHO.
Capacitors hold very little energy. They are good for a flash then that is it.

... I have not opened the pack yet
We can do some Stored Energy calculations.

... It is wise to do so
We calculate capacitors with Charge and Volts and jewels...

The first thing I will search for is an Energy Storage comparison of a Capacitor vs a Lipo. This would only be posted as a debunking case. No electrical engineer is interested in the idea, as "several seconds" is a billion years on a discharge curve.

* Super Capacitors have H U G E internal resistance and can discharge on the order of hundreds of MilliAmps
* We need tiny internal resistances and we have to dump in the hundreds of amps
* Three orders of magnitude difference here...

... Ceramic Capacitors can dump fast, but have little storage.
Just a sec, I will go find a good graph

-methods

 

[methods]

Notice that the SuperCapacitor bank is as large as a car battery.

...
The Starter works by pushing a gear forward to Engauge the flywheel. This is why the flywheel has notches.

The Starter then must spin the flywheel far enough to kick off a cycle. Yea - in perfect conditions "a bump" is all it takes. . . but often you need to spin the motor around a time or two to deal with older car issues.

* Prime the fuel system mostly

So
Without looking, I am going to discount the possibility that capacitors are used anywhere as part of the jumping circuit.

Why dont we go see?

-methods

 

[methods]

Here is another example.
This guy is using 350F caps, says he has been doing it for 3 years.

[youtube]gzaLF5tFf88[/youtube]

So to end early any arguments that come (I frocking HATE arguing on the internet) ... it boils down to:

* Energy Density
* Power Density

The package size of what we are evaluating eliminates that technology as a viable option.
... that is my Hypothesis turning Theory. In a moment we will have Proof.

-methods

 

[methods]

While the pictures process. . .

Inside we have
* LCD and power button Module
* USB Output Module
* USB-C and uUSB on the motherboard, along with LED

Powering the circuit board is the JST-XH balance tap
Primary wires go right out the front door

-methods

 

[methods]

Lets be ROCK SOLID sure to say that this is a

V E R Y
N I C E
P R O D U C T

Please, if you are reading this. . . buy this brand and not some other brand. Before even testing it (other than once) I give it the double KFF of approval!



That is not a joke - being serious.
A lot of thought went into this and it looks safe.

I see, in the JST
* 4 balance wires, indicating 3S
* Presumably 2 temperature wires, thinner gauge, in black
* A Yellow wire

So at a minimum the pack is Thermally Protected.

-methods

 

[methods]

. . .
Value Engineering is both the friend and enemy of the revolution.

FACT
* All good motors have a temperature sensor
* All good batteries have the same

With a motor you may see it attached to the case after the fact (thermal switch). Same with a battery. . . so . .. "raw goods" do not require these things to be integrated, but they should be*

... If
Every Lipo pack had a $0.10 temp sensor. . . then every controller would have thermal cut-back. . .and we would have less problems. BUILD IT, and THEY WILL USE IT.

Eh hem
Look at Hub Motors now. Only retarded companies ship them without thermal feedback.

... off to take a nice morning dump
I suggest to all readers that they drink Coffee in the morning to control the timing and function of their bowels.

I...
VERY RARELY have to trop trowel out in the bush. I do my business on a schedule, like an Astronaut.

-methods

 

[john61ct]

This unit is not so big

https://nerdtechy.com/autowit-supercap-2-review

But I guess for today's design it's either caps or battery, not both in one unit.

A plain LI pack (even plain no electronics) could be the charge source for a cap based unit though

 

[BVH]

The inherent problem with all the Lithium Ion pouch cell starters is a Catch-22 - You want them fully charged at all times so they are ready to jump, but keeping them fully charged kills the cells in a short period of time. I had 3 different Anti-Gravity units (genuine) including the heavy duty truck starter unit swell up and die in less than a year. Lithium Iron Phosphate - LiFeP04 is the best match for a starter unit. 4S configuration giving about 1.7 more Volts Nominal than 3S LiIon and almost no self-discharge and killed cells. One Volt makes a very big difference.

I know it's a technicality, but for the few seconds after the vehicle starts, there can be upwards of 14.4 Volts in the circuit which exposes your starter cells to about 4.8 charging Volts.

 

[methods]

The case was very professionally designed with no stickers holding it together. I cracked mine with a $4 knife that I bought at San Lorenzo Lumber.

... I like supporting Local, but San Lorenzo. . . can not really compete with Home Depot. They are very soft on stock and high on prices. I spend money there from time to time, but ... the budget DIY person needs to go to Home Depot to live the dream. Trying to live the dream off of non-subsidized goods is tough.



Take note of the highly modular design. Nobody tried to make a monolithic PCB board here. Nobody tried to re-invent the wheel either.

.. On the lid, we see a COTS USB adapter. Always accept a pre-validated module where possible!!! This is the Lego reality that folks like Adafruit (and anyone supporting Arduino) is working toward.



The symbol on the battery is called a QR Code
It is the same as a barcode, but can hold much more information. Many phones can decode this to get things like
* Web links
* Part Number
* Serial Number
* Date Code....

Most people who program these stickers (from something like a Zebra Printer) have the same information in the QR code as you see in the Text. I could prove this by shooting the QR code with an Android and parsing the text. It will be "delimited" by something like

* Space
* Comma
* Carriage Return
* Line Feed

We can see a long alphanumeric followed by some facts followed by another alpha
... All that can be decoded. You just need 2pcs of product to do so*



The LCD is a custom bit, as it has the button integrated. The overall package has an IP rating and I believe it.



Above is that standard, COTS, USB nugget (Presumably cots, it may be custom... and for this rig, likely is). All of this was 3D modeled for absolute certain.



The moldings that capture the battery connector on both sides are excellent. Precision.

In the pictures you can see the PCB mount USB-C connector. I use these exclusively in new designs*
...

All these parts are high volume and very professional. All stickered out and a part of a quality process. ... I know what a Quality Process looks like because I did a lot of this while at ChargePoint. ... ChargePoint (without any doubt) runs a quality process suitable to high volume (eh hem).



Dont be confused by the funny balance tap. That thing could get you in trouble. If we want to replace this battery then we would either have to spoof the first three inputs (Yellow, Black, Black) or we would have to transfer the PCB internal to the battery over to the new battery.

EITHER WAY

... You can clearly just take any 3S pack off of Hobby King, hook it to your car battery, and light off. ... JUST BEWARE... that a circuit like this is clever. It does not dump its energy into the dead lead acid.

It waits. . .
Then once the Lead Acid is in parallel with the Starter, it then takes a dump.

Once done, it holds back.
Very smartly done.
Well done. . .

... Congratulations to the Engineers on this team, I am very pleased with what I am seeing. Very thoughtful.. . . This is a serviceable item. I could swap out that battery in 4 minutes and 20 seconds, all day every day.

-methods

 

[methods]

The Poster Above is of course correct.
...

Perhaps this is a LiFe pack eh?
Maybe I misread the balance taps
Maybe it is 4S

-methods

 

[methods]

Part Number clearly calls out 3S, so... no dice there.

As far as the Argument is concerned...
I agree in principle, but the argument made is somewhat invalid. (i.e. Does not follow)

Just because one Lithium pack puffs out after sitting at HVC for long periods. . . does not mean that Lithium batteries have a problem sitting for very long periods at HVC.

Proof to that?


Come on man, about 4 BILLION laptop batteries.
So...
I am sorry but your proof is invalidated

...

We are in agreement that LiFePO4 is a MUCH more suitable chemistry for Lead Acid replacement.
We are not in agreement that LiPo stored at close to HVC will always crap out fast.

... They will crap out *faster* -
But it can be years. . .

And I dont just leave these things sitting. I cycle them over and over on my Phone, Laptop, Vape... so... I get the use out of mine. . . and I appreciate the tiny formfactor.

(i.e. Poster is correct, but argument is not a valid proof. I can present evidence that is 6 orders of magnitude more valid)

-methods

 

[methods]

This unit is not so big

https://nerdtechy.com/autowit-supercap-2-review

But I guess for today's design it's either caps or battery, not both in one unit.

A plain LI pack (even plain no electronics) could be the charge source for a cap based unit though

Ok
I stand corrected there
Looks like someone is doing it.

I see nowhere in the review what the WH rating is. The guy basically says it is no good for charging.

OK
I see the benefits of extreme discharge and cycle count.
Where it falls short is in versatility.

I strongly prefer power sources that are multi-functional. This makes them a part of everyday life. In this way, we just leave the jumper wires in the glove box and we keep the battery with us. This gives us the ability to . . . live the dream.

-methods

 

[methods]

I know it's a technicality, but for the few seconds after the vehicle starts, there can be upwards of 14.4 Volts in the circuit which exposes your starter cells to about 4.8 charging Volts.

I see an edit
Cant see what was edited
Valid point tho. . .

That is just a Dynamic voltage for handfulls or hundreds of milliseconds. This is not what we are worried about. Dynamic Voltage is not what lights things off or degrades them severely. That voltage likely drops off in the cabling and just develops as some charge current at the cells.

>>> With a scope you will see Lots of dynamic Voltage!

* In the Seconds domain
* In the milliseconds
* In the Microseconds

Most people dont look closely at Pulse Power

-methods

 

[methods]

"Smart Chargers"

Charge a lithium battery faster by presenting a Dynamic Charge Voltage far in excess of the resting HVC voltage of the cells. This is how they induce a higher charge current toward the end of the charging cycle. . .

It is extremely dangerous and irresponsible (IMHO) as any of 12 failures in the system can light the cells off. No charger should put out more than 4.2V per cell Constant when up against the compliance voltage.

... By that argument
Above poster is correct... that there are failure modes in this system that could result in overcharge of the batteries resulting in fire. Lets look at that.

...

IF
The mosfets fail into short circuit

THEN
The battery is directly wired into the Alternator

SO
The pack must have yet another internal LVC (doubt it). . . so. . . yea.

There is an inherent mode by which this system could fail to fire.
The solution to that . . . would be to do it with a 4S pack.

... FYI
All of my car starters are 4S lithium charged up to 4V per cell putting down 16V.

Never seen damage to a car part.
Cars are very noisy. . . and alternators do weird things. IF 16V damages a car, that was a poor design.

SO
By posters Argument...

* Running 4S
* Undercharging to 4V (or even 3.9V) per cell

This would be a safer setup that would last longer

... Arguments to the contrary???

-methods

 

[methods]

(other than arguments that 16V could damage a vehicle)

If it does, get a different vehicle.
Tow Trucks jump start with even higher voltage*

You can measure it if you know a Tow Truck guy.
They use higher voltage because they run 20' of cable.

100's of amps thru many feet of cable drops many volts... but... the voltage is still there*

-methods

 

[methods]

...
I heard someone above say "Genuine"

Yesterday I bought stuff off of Hobby King where they called out one thing as "Copy" and another as "Genuine" because it has a hologram sticker.

Folks should know that there is no such thing as "Genuine" coming out of China. Not to speak of, in any way... even if the American company is shipping the production parts to China. Even if the Lot codes match on the parts.

In China
* They have 7 story malls that sell nothing but "Genuine" hologram stickers
* They have machines everywhere that sand off the top of chips and laser-etch new information

I would be EXTREMELY WEARY of any US Value-Add house that is sourcing from China and making claims about being Genuine.

...

Even if things are "Genuine"... you still have:
* Process Errors
* Binning
* Good lots and bad lots

Maybe they did not change the air filters that week.
Maybe some girl on the line was shedding hair
Maybe a machine was washed improperly...

There are a billion ways for 47,000 LiPo packs to come out bad.

* Maybe the hot wire (or whatever seals them) was gummed up
* Maybe
* Maybe...

In Production we see failures that you could never imagine. This results in the need for:
* Testing
* Binning

Any process that does not have extreme test. . . could never be "Genuine"... in the sense that it is Guaranteed to be of an expected quality. For that you must have an Extrusion test.

...

SO
Nobody on earth wants to throw away 47,000 LiPo batteries that were found to have some flaw in them. EVERYBODY wants to find a way to put those to use....

and

The ... Character of those humans in the chain of custody... is what determines the
* Price
* Proper Notice
* Labeling

Of those FUBAR goods.

... Hobby King is the best place to see this in action. They have all sorts of quality issues and it shows up in little notes on the product.

...
Nobody wants to throw out a "Bad Batch" of goods. Especially not a business man. ... Hopefully those goods get upcycled into an appropriate application. More times than not, those goods end up::

* Selling out the back door
* Having branding removed
...
* Having branding re-applied
* Sold out someone elses front door

... So that is why
* Lot Numbers
* Date Codes

Are so important as a part of a Quality Process.

-methods

 

[john61ct]

The cap based jump starter is single purpose.

To me that is an advantage!

The jumpstarters I rely on for that function - can be life & death - are not used for phones or other screen devices, just dedicated to that one function.

I keep my Essential circuits, devices etc strictly segregated from non. They may share a House bank upstream, but the non-essential loads like entertainment devices are disabled at a much higher LVC than say refrigeration, which in turn is cut off long before navigation and comms.

The one time you need it will be just at the end of a discharge cycle feeding non-essential loads.

Maybe, if only I was involved, I would rotate between two, ensuring B is Full before using A.

But kids are in the picture, thirsty creatures all, not to be trusted 8-D

 

[methods]

I have looked at thousands of Pouch Cells and 18650's

I am sure Luke has looked at 10's or 100's of thousands. . .

The thing I want to emphasize here is to be very careful comparing apples with oranges. A HIGH QUALITY pouch cell in something like an Apple laptop . . . is not to be compared with a Jenkem brand hobby pack.

They may look the same, but they are not the same in any way.... even if they came out of the exact same factory. ... Those in any kind of Silicon Quality (like thumb drives, hard drives, CPU's, etc) can validate this statement.

EVERYTHING
Is hairball in Production until a process is really well defined.

High Volume
(aka Laptops)
Can produce some very good Process

Designed Obsolescence
On a VERY FAST design cycle
Like Cell Phones... do not fall into the same category

Cell phones are closer to RC packs*

-methods

 

[john61ct]

there is no such thing as "Genuine" coming out of China

Apple Tesla hundreds of others manage to do so.

Yes, I realize these are the "exceptions that prove The Rule"

 

[methods]

Valid Point, I stand corrected again.

* CO2 Fire Extinguisher
* Jump Starter
* Some Water and food bars

... Yea
I dont want the kids setting off the Extinguisher, drinking the water, or eating the bars. I most certainly dont want them draining the jump starter.

>...
SO
For Safety, I agree.

-methods

The cap based jump starter is single purpose.

To me that is an advantage!

The jumpstarters I rely on for that function - can be life & death - are not used for phones or other screen devices, just dedicated to that one function.

I keep my Essential circuits, devices etc strictly segregated from non. They may share a House bank upstream, but the non-essential loads like entertainment devices are disabled at a much higher LVC than say refrigeration, which in turn is cut off long before navigation and comms.

The one time you need it will be just at the end of a discharge cycle feeding non-essential loads.

Maybe, if only I was involved, I would rotate between two, ensuring B is Full before using A.

But kids are in the picture, thirsty creatures all, not to be trusted 8-D

 

[methods]

Valid Point, I stand corrected again.

* CO2 Fire Extinguisher
* Jump Starter
* Some Water and food bars

... Yea
I dont want the kids setting off the Extinguisher, drinking the water, or eating the bars. I most certainly dont want them draining the jump starter.

>...
SO
For Safety, I agree.

-methods

The cap based jump starter is single purpose.

To me that is an advantage!

The jumpstarters I rely on for that function - can be life & death - are not used for phones or other screen devices, just dedicated to that one function.

I keep my Essential circuits, devices etc strictly segregated from non. They may share a House bank upstream, but the non-essential loads like entertainment devices are disabled at a much higher LVC than say refrigeration, which in turn is cut off long before navigation and comms.

The one time you need it will be just at the end of a discharge cycle feeding non-essential loads.

Maybe, if only I was involved, I would rotate between two, ensuring B is Full before using A.

But kids are in the picture, thirsty creatures all, not to be trusted 8-D