LiNiMnCo versus lifepo4 from USA or China.

[EZgo]

I'm an e-bike enthusiast & small E-BikeKit Dealer in PA. Although I have a web-site through which I sell E-BikeKits & bicycle accessories through amazon the only "real" income I make is selling the e-bikes I build using Jason's kits, Ridekick trailers. & service & repair work. This year I really want to get away from lead cells & use almost exclusively lithium batteries. (a pipe dream I know)

Although I don't post much I've been an avid reader of this forum for some time. As a matter of fact everything I know about e-bikes & lithium batteries I've learned here... & I still don't know nothin.

Without getting super deep into the various lithium battery chemistries I need some help in making a decision on what to order & from whom.
At this point I'm down to trying to decide between LiNiMnCo & lifepo4 & USA or China.

So my specific questions are:
What is the difference & advantages/disadvantages of LiNiMnCo versus LiFePO4? I've had good experience with Headway LiFePO4 batteries.

Are batteries sold as Li-ion batteries actually a unique battery chemistry or simply a generic name for one of the many available lithium chemistries?

Is there another battery chemistry I should be looking at?

Has anybody ever used battery packs from Xincchi Photo Electric Co. http://xinchibattery.zxq.net/? I've now had several email communications from them & they have been extremely responsive, helpful & understand our language perfectly. I've had mixed results from other Chinese vendors & don't like the unfair advantage they have over US manufacturers. I.E. little or no liability worries. The language barrier has also been a real problem. But even with a healthy freight charge the price savings is substantial enough that I can't not consider them.

Personally I'll spend $200 more for a US built battery in a heartbeat but when your starting out by trying to up-sell a customer lithium over SLA & then add another $200 for "Made in the USA" on top of that... well, it's tough.

My serious contenders, a side from Xincchi at this point are: Batteryspace, Ping & Headway Headquarters (a US Headway seller builder). I'd love to try the Allcells from E-BikeKit but there not even in the ballpark with their prices & as neat as their PCM technology is I think it's over kill for an e-bike.

I only buy 10 batteries at a time so I'm not exactly getting container load pricing.

Thanks for any help you can offer me.
Matt
EZgo-Now.com

 

[chvidgov.bc.ca]

I think you might add the Headway packs from bmsbattery.com as a candidate. I have found them to be easy to repair or build from scratch with individual cells readily available. The BMS I've used has also been very good, with decent heat dissipation and good balancing at the correct voltage. Replacement 16S BMS are around fifty dollars - I haven't needed to replace any, and they also work well on Ping packs. Communication is spotty with them, but I haven't ever had them not ship anything I ordered. Prices are good - the 16S LiFP04 Headway packs (48V nominal) is supposedly around 3C cells - better than Ping, although voltage is saggy at those C rates. Easy to single cell charge a cell, in situ, with it already part of a pack. The charger leads and pack leads emanate from the same terminal, which eliminates possibility of charging without BMS by using wrong connection (not so in a Ping). They are heavy-ish though. For trikes and recumbents with good battery carrying capacity under the seat they provide worry-free plug and play service. They are a bit cheaper than equivalent Ping packs.

 

[dogman dan]

First thing to do is read up on what you will have to do to legaly ship lithium batteries. There's a huge advantage the china shippers have. If they violate the US laws, the US is free to come and get them. They can come and get you if you ship illegal. Then consider the risks involved in being the source for warantee of batteries.

Lithium polymer is any kind of lithium battery. But Lipo has become very commonly used to refer specificaly to lico chemistry such as the RC hobby batteries.

 

[dnmun]

there is a new ebay lifepo4 pack seller sun-thing28 who sells the 48V15Ah pouch packs like ping makes for about $425 delivered to the states. he uses surface shipping to keep the price down so you should talk to him and see if you could order several batteries at once and save a lot on shipping and negotiate a better deal in return for more publicity for him. then you could talk to the other ebikekit dealers around you to see if they would split the order with you or maybe even someone here on the sphere.

all to get the unit price down so you could offer a 48v15Ah pack under $450-475.

or maybe you could work out a deal where you would use him a s source for batteries and guarantee him a number of sales through you to keep the price down and let him ship the packs directly to your customer.

 

[Gregor]

If you are considering building your own batteries, it seems like the vast majority of BMS's are desinged for LifePO4 chemistry (headways, Pings, etc.), and I have only been able to find a few for LiPo from all-battery--one I think that I remember is 10s at 40A. I don't recall seeing any reviews of it yet. Manzanito micro is also a seller of Headways. Good luck on your adventure and keep us posted on your progress!

 

[Rassy]

Hi EZgo, you asked:

What is the difference & advantages/disadvantages of LiNiMnCo versus LiFePO4? I've had good experience with Headway LiFePO4 batteries.

I've had several LiFePO4 batteries from Ping and a LiNiMnCo battery from BMSBattery.

The main difference is that the LiFePO4 battery has a fairly flat discharge curve, meaning it has a very small voltage change during most of the discharge cycle, whereas the LiNiMnCo discharges more like an SLA battery, having a fairly constant voltage drop during discharge.

For some reason BMSBattery decided to use 13 sub-packs in series for a fully charged battery resting at about 54 volts. If they had added one more sub-pack into the series I think it would be more competitive with Ping's batteries, even as it dropped more voltage during use. My guess is they wanted it to be closer to an SLA's battery characterisics, maybe for charger purposes, or whatever.

The BMSBattery is lighter, and I think a little smaller than a Ping. My 48V 20AH BMSBattery weighs under 15 pounds. 48V 20AH Pings are over 20 pounds.

Another thing most of us like about Ping's batteries is the BMS he uses with the full charge indicater LED's.

And of course, Ping's reputation is excellent. BMSBatteries QC and customer relations are okay, but certainly not in the same league as Ping. I'll soon be in the market for another battery and unless something great shows up soon I'll probably pay the price for a Ping again.

 

[gurkpeter]

Well, I cannot second Ping's quality appraisals. I have one 36V15Ah and 1 48V15Ah and my guess is that the cells themselves might be fine when he ships them to you, but I constantly had BMS problems (replaced three times) which in the end ruined the cells prematurely, after about 200 cycles. I would have been better off with a pack from Konion cells.

 

[SamTexas]

Well, I cannot second Ping's quality appraisals. I have one 36V15Ah and 1 48V15Ah and my guess is that the cells themselves might be fine when he ships them to you, but I constantly had BMS problems (replaced three times) which in the end ruined the cells prematurely, after about 200 cycles.

Huh? What am I missing? You had constant problems with the BMSs ruining your cells, but you approve Ping's quality? What quality?

Edit: Sorry. I misread. Somehow, I thought you said Ping is good. My bad.

 

[melodious]

Rassy's comments are spot on concerning the discharge curve. My 36V 20Ah LiNiMnCo tends to lose a bit of performance near the end of it's use, even on a 20" wheel I can "feel" a loss of peppiness akin to SLA. I'd imagine it would be less pronounced in a more powerful 48V system. It kind of gives me the nervous "oh dear, I hope I can make it home" jitters* when it does happen because I feel like I need to conserve more by throttling less and pedaling more. 8)

Now my LiFEPO4 batteries, as previously stated, have a flat curve and when it's about done it falls off dramatically. Meaning, you really feel super awesome most of your ride, then when the LVC hits, WHAM! "Hey, what happened to my ride?". :lol: It's on a upright standup scooter (no human pedaling). So when I see that LVC hit, I'm done. Walk of shame.

Based on discharge curves, I'd favor the LiFEPO4. I do enjoy the consistency that it provides.

*I believe LiNiMnCo has similar safety features of LiFEPO4. Meaning, thermal runaway is highly improbable if it were to be abused.

 

[chvidgov.bc.ca]

I agree on problems with Ping BMS. I've gone through three in the last several years. And not due to overheating in a cloth bag issue...they just went bad.

 

[UtahRider]

You can get alot of good information about batteries and their comparisons at a web site called: batteryuniversity.com. You'll see charts and comparisons on all the Lithium Ion batteries. You might try checking with a company like electricrider.com they could probably supply your bulk battery needs along with a 1 year warranty on each battery pack.

 

[Rassy]

Wow! Surprised to see several negative comments about Ping and/or his products. For the most part, everyone praises his QC and his response when there is a problem. I.e. he will walk you through a test, and if the BMS needs to be replaced he doesn't normally require old parts to be returned, etc.

I currently have a 48V 15AH Ping that is over 3 years old and two 48V 10AH Pings that are over 2 1/2 years old. None of these batteries or BMS's have required any surgery. All of them are V2.5's.

 

[migueralliart]

Never owned a battery with a BMS just because of all the problems I hear in this forum about failing BMS's.

 

[gurkpeter]

Well, I would not say negative to a comment that exposes problems. I agree, Ping tries to help but this does not mean his products are perfect and I suspect the specification is also a bit exagerated. I would say with taxes and everything his batteries are not such a great deal today. My first BMS failure happened within the warranty period and he indeed helped and sent me a replacement BMS but for about 20 USD 'shipping'. All in all, this battery business never happens not a super controlled environment and it is hard to find the balance between flexibility on solving problems and economic gains everybody tries to maximize. I still thinks Ping fares rather OK but I would not buy another one from him. I have digged into the subject quite a bit and think original a123 and maybe headway cells might live up to the promises they make on discharge rate and cycles but these are also met by Sony Konion cells for a smaller price and lighter weight.

 

[SamTexas]

I agree, Ping tries to help but this does not mean his products are perfect...

I agree with this. From all I have heard, Ping really tried to help. But that's NOT enough. I would much rather have a working product in the first place and NEVER have to ask for support.

 

[chvidgov.bc.ca]

Don't get me wrong...I like the Ping batteries that I have - I haven't done any pack surgery on them, and they still charge up to 60V+ after a couple of years. But the BMSes have poor heat dissipation, the voltage is set a bit high (higher than 3.65 per cell), and various LED lights have at time failed to come on permanently, necessitating BMS replacement. I've switched over the bmsbattery LIFPO4 BMS on one of them, as I got tired of buying replacement Signalabs every x months or so. Ping is great with communication though. I always charge the Signalabs with my polycarbonate box wide open, with the blue shrinkwrap removed to improve circulation around the circuit board. I have three dead Signalabs on my workbench. One with burned mosfets, and others with other issues. And I don't overstress them, sticking to sporadic max 30 amp discharges, and always pedalling at least moderately.

 

[axelvdb]

The price may be cheaper if you buy in China... but the risk is big you loose all your money. I've ordered a 25Ah 48V LifePO4 battery at Asian-Resources.com and had the bad luck customs checked the package. No labels, nor UL or CE, nor user or safety instructions shipped with the battery and loader... bye bye 500$!!!

I've send several emails but in the end they don't answer anymore.

Let me know if you've had the same experience!

 

[docnjoj]

I gotta say I would try to use a US based supplier if at all possible. My choice would be Headways from either Manzanta or Headway Headquarters. My simple reason is that their batteries are easy to repair, and all lithium can fail. If you are warranteeing them, it is perhaps a half our job to replace one cell out of 12 or 16. Headways seem to be the most repairable batteries I know of.
otherDoc

 

[Doctorbass]

If you buy some Ping battery and do some little mod, they will certainly become one of your best battery for the price!

I bought 7 of the 48V 15Ah with v2.5 signalab BMS 5 years ago and they still give above 14Ah all the 7 battery!. These are used by my familly ( oncle, cousin grandma etc) and they follow exactly the advices i recommanded and these battery ALL work good today

btw these 15Ah ping are used with 4C burst and 2C constant average and cahrge at C/3 ( 5A charger)

I can still recommand Ping battery today.
Ping is a great guy and will agree to customize your battery for only few buck and can also sell you some spare cells even if your battery maintnnace skill is not so good.

These battery are good also because they use LIFEPO4 cells that avoid your ebike to have a max top speed affected over the discharge
They also have about 1000-2000cycles compare to 300-500 for the lipo or liMn
Here is some tips:

Maintenance:
- NEVER leave your battery discharged for more than few days
- Avoid fully discharge your battery ( keep at least 1-2Ah)
- in storage mode: disconect the white Balance connector ( this will avoid draining the 4 first cells channel)
- in storage mode: keep your battery between 40-60% SOC ( easy to do, fully cahrge it and make a run of 1/2 of your total Ah)
- in storage mode keep your battery in an area of about 10-20 celsius or close to that
- once all the BMS led are ON, dont leave your charger connected for more than one day
- ensure that you ocasionally charge your battery to get all the BMS led ON ( meanng your battery is perfectly balanced)
- avoid droping it and install some additional foam around it to avoid your bike rack structure to torture your battery due to vibration

MODS
-Replace the stock charging mosfet of the BMS with a 4110 and beef up the related traces ( the stock mosfet is crap and at 5A will burn un the first 100 cycles
-replace the stock discharging mosfet with the 4110 and install a copper plate as heatsink! This will make yor BMs to run coller and might allow a little more voltage output.
- on the aluminum cahrger, remove the surge supressor at teh input of the cahrger AC input on the PCB ( it look like a ceramic capacitor shape) This component often burn and is not really usefull it only damp the AC surge current when you power On your charger
-replace the crap XLR connector that often end out to melt and make bad contact

Doc