local manufacturing for hub motors

[davec]

i don't get it
i know a lot of vendors love china- buy cheap in bulk re-sell and make a profit
some even deal with Taiwan who have higher standards
we love cheap goods and bottom line is these cheap goods are going up in price- in china there's labour shortage and wages going up every single month driving pricing up

im a bit disappointed to see no local hub manufacturing
when you look at the cost of a xlyte or other hubs costing over 400 bucks with all sorts of issues- im sure a decent shop could cnc something of quality for that price and make a fair profit

i wouldnt mind shelling out 500.00 dollars for a good local properly cnc'd hub motor at all

so far the only vendor i know that has been doing local manufacturing is ebikes.ca -CA, custom chargers, and currently working on custom crontrollers
we also got good old a123 making batteries in MI

wish there was more of it instead of just re-selling foreign goods

 

[mlt34]

It's nice to dream about, but I just don't see it happening any time soon. The US just isn't a manufacturing country anymore. If Xlyte motors are $400-500 when they're built by 11 year old Chinese girls, imagine how much they would cost if you had to pay a living wage to an American to make them. It's simply cost prohibitive. Ebikes.ca can only produce smaller less labor intensive parts, and still their prices are much higher. (of course, many people gladly pay those higher prices for quality parts, which is awesome, but they're still on much lower labor parts to produce…)

A123 cells are produced in bulk because they are used for so many other purposes than ebikes, so the economy of scale comes into play. There are a lot more drill batteries sold everyday than ebikes in the US.

Producing hubmotors would just be super expensive. I have no idea how expensive, but I can't see too many people paying $1,000+ for a hubmotor, that even though it has a "made in the USA" sticker on it, isn't that much greater than a chinese one. Those 11 year old chinese girls know what their doing when it comes to hub motors. When's the last time you got a bad 9C? I never have. And a $100 Chinese Nine Continent is a lot more attractive to people than a $1,000 US Ten Continent or whatever.

Now if we could get someone to make hubmotors in Mexico, then we might have something...

 

[MadRhino]

In America, you can't even do the copper winding of a hub motor for twice the price they sell the complete kit in China. Today when something is marked "made in USA", most of the time it is assembled in America with parts that are made in Asia anyway.

 

[Ykick]

Unfortunately, the response so far are correct IMO.

This country doesn’t manufacture much of anything anymore. It’s all “service” industry - as in serving lawsuits, gasoline, cable TV, cellular contracts and/or industrial crap-food which then forces hordes of people into medical/fitness services. And let’s not overlook the commercial prison and law enforcement complex - locking up mentally ill and/or pot smokers, drug addicts, etc.

The “free market” ain’t all what it’s cracked up to be when competing with other “less than free” markets/systems in manufacturing. Throw in a large dose of EPA goonies, special interest lobbies and piss-poor education standards and you have the sad recipe for the current USA manufacturing environment.

 

[arkmundi]

Its a matter of cost-competitive advantage and locating manufacuturing facility where it makes the most sense. These days a company has to be global - the entire market - and grow to meet that entirety, or ultimately be bought out, sold or fail. Per A123, they were under DOE obligation to locate the factory in 'merica, so its Lenova MI. But the Korean factory is still being operated. Seems a good split. Leonova's mission was automotive. But now that the Wanxiang Group owns its, we must all wonder what the long-term plans are for locating factory operations.

It's nice to dream about, but I just don't see it happening any time soon. The US just isn't a manufacturing country anymore.

That attitude has changed over the last decade. There is a whole re-localization movement afoot and our US gov't folks are leading that, especially the DOE & military. We'd never out-source production of weaponry would we? So why energy? The military is the #1 advocate of electrify and moving off of foreign dependence on oil. Strange as that sounds, it true. The guys with guns hate being shot at more than any one and don't like to put themselves in harms way.

A123 cells are produced in bulk because they are used for so many other purposes than ebikes, so the economy of scale comes into play. There are a lot more drill batteries sold everyday than ebikes in the US.
.

A123 has three divisions, in order of long-term importance: 1> grid storage & smart grid, 2> consumer products (Dewalt, etc.) and 3> automotive. eBikes are such a tiny, tiny miniscule fraction of sales we do not play into any strategic decision. The cylindricals for the consumer products division are our life-blood. Be great to see a Dewalt like pack on Amazon one day that I can buy online and simply plug into my bike. Maybe.

 

[mlt34]

We'd never out-source production of weaponry would we?

We do. To China. And there's serious speculation that they put spyware and/or sabotaged parts in our weapon systems.
http://defensetech.org/2012/05/30/smoking-gun-proof-that-military-chips-from-china-are-infected/

Just goes to show, if China can do it cheaper, we'll pay them to do anything. Even our weapons.

 

[spinningmagnets]

It is doable, but if you want to try to become the local supplier, you will quickly find out how difficult it is to create a start-up. If you want to "seed" a home-grown ebike kit industry, your best bet is a non-hub. All of the adapters, brackets, and jackshafts can be made in whatever state you find yourself in (some states will be harder than others). When it comes to the motors, if motors from China dry up, a non-hub system can adapt to using a different motor.

If you have a lathe, it is conceivable that you could make motors from scratch (there will be other expensive tools that you will need, also). I am intrigued by the possibilities of a potentially easy manufacture of the "hairpin" style of coils found in the Chevy Spark motor (would it be better for a garage manufacture? who knows?).

This might help you get started with some ideas: http://www.electricbike.com/cadcam-the-diy-builders-best-friend/

And when you get done with that, read about Mikes experiences in the development of the LightningRods kit: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=57720

 

[MadRhino]

We'd never out-source production of weaponry would we? So why energy?

If we'd stop making weapons and war, we could supply everyone in America with free electricity

 

[flathill]

I can make motors cheaper than China if we dont include magnets
use printed stators or machine winding

but hub motors need neo mags for torque density

the problem right now is domestic companies in China pay 1/10th the cost for high temp grade neo magnets than I would.
china makes 98% of the neo magnets worldwide but already shot themself in the foot by blackmailing japan and cause a 1600% price spike a few years ago.

now japan and the usa are opening mines and mfg facilities all over the world. Takes about 12 years so figure by 2020 we should be back in business

 

[mlt34]

We'd never out-source production of weaponry would we? So why energy?

If we'd stop making weapons and war, we could supply everyone in America with free electricity

…for as long as there would be an America without weapons to defend itself.

disclaimer: I'm not a crazy gun freak - just a serviceman who understands that a country like the US can't exist for very long without a well equipped army

 

[John in CR]

By 2020 China will be able to afford to have the US make stuff for them, though more likely will be that they buy most of Africa and have Africans be their cheap labor pool.

In the comments above Xlyte is not the company whose products should be used in any comparison. The sell generic stuff for premium prices, because the fanboy club convinced a lot of people the quality is good, which makes me vomit a little in my mouth every time I think about it. The other half of their business is from those foolish enough to believe that high price equates to quality.

 

[mlt34]

What other "generic" motor equaled a 5304?

 

[davec]

i agree with many of the coments on here- this motivates me to give this a shot- and make my own 9c clone to figure out costs- i am lacking the time but i am fortunate enough to have a very talented neighbor who is a machinist and has tons of cnc machines in his garage

I don't see this being that hard- the only challenging components is winding those stators(but this also has been pulled off some on here)- otherwise the rotor can be simply drafted with a cnc- same with side covers.

i could potentially source quality components from folks on here who are already involved
like this guy making custom quality axles:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=58509

and so forth- just a thought

looks like justin already made one-
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=49583

based on this- it dosnt look like rocket science:
http://www.leafmotor.com/blog/tag/bike-motor/
http://zenid10.wordpress.com/category/4-how-to-guide/4-6-disassembly-and-assembly/4-6-3-disassembling-and-reassembling-the-hub-motor/

 

[davec]

China Starts Outsourcing From ... the US
Posted by Soulskill on Tuesday June 24, 2014 @02:17PM
from the wait-what dept.
hackingbear writes:
Burdened with Alabama's highest unemployment rate, long abandoned by textile mills and furniture plants, Wilcox County, Alabama, desperately needs jobs. And the jobs are coming from China. Henan's Golden Dragon Precise Copper Tube Group opened a plant here last month, employing 300 locals. Chinese companies invested a record $14 billion in the United States last year, according to the Rhodium Group research firm. Collectively, they employ more than 70,000 Americans, up from virtually none a decade ago. Powerful forces — narrowing wage gaps (Chinese wages have been doubling every few years), tumbling U.S. energy prices, the rising Yuan — up 30% over the decade — are pulling Chinese companies across the Pacific. Perhaps very soon, Chinese workers will start protesting their jobs being outsourced to the cheap labor in the U.S."

so much for manufacturing these poor quality xlyte hubs in china for cheap and re-selling them for over 400/US dollars
when they could be made locally

anyways looks like there are local options:
Unlike most kits, the BionX is designed and manufactured not in China, but in Ontario Canada. At least some of (if not most of) the components of the BionX kit are made in Asia under tight quality controls.
woohooo!!! it's a shame they are only 350watt max though